17 yrs after Bowlsby decided to take Iowa basketball to the next level
- Thread starter starbrown
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I think the Program has changed drastically in 17 years.
You have to remember that we were pretty good under Dr. Tom. Always competitive and a regular in the field of 64 (usually a 2 and done team). But never the less it was fun basketball.
Then Alford comes in and takes us up a little bit. Gets the bigger name recruits and has a nice run. But the problem we had some player issues and some coaches issues which affected the program. Basically I think the overall "results" were a little better, but product and issues shadowed the results. I mean we were Big Ten Tournment Champs and competitive for regular season championships. But all the off the court issues made it worse.
Lickliter years: Hands down the worst hire in NCAA sports history. The guy was horrible and ran a program that was trending down, and just buried it 6ft under. I mean we couldn't even run a simple warm-up drill because half the time Iowa only dressed 7-8 players. Then when his son started playing, that was the last straw. Lick set it back at least 10 years with all his poor recruiting and program management. He burned a lot of bridges with AAU coaches and other people associated in the recruiting game.
Fran: Inherited a dumpster fire of a program. Did not have a lot to work with, but made it some what work. I gave him the first 3 years as a pass, because we were so bad. But he has improved and gotten us to the NCAA in back to back seasons. Its a start and hopefully it will continue to build. I think Fran is trying to get some connections back in the AAU game and the problem is the Big 10 is so competitive in the recruiting game, a lot of our targets are also being recruited by other Big 10 schools.
I think the "seniors" was a good start. They were a top 25 class and they have done some great things for the program. Yes they have lost some head scratchers and seems like they go backwards at times, but they will get better and will be a solid team.
I think overall we are about back to the days of Dr. Tom in a way. I think it has been a roller coaster of a ride and I think Fran is trying to get the guys in his system where he can be successful. I am upset like anyone after Thursday nights loss, but Fran is our guy. He will get the boys back on track for the rest of the season.
You have to remember that we were pretty good under Dr. Tom. Always competitive and a regular in the field of 64 (usually a 2 and done team). But never the less it was fun basketball.
Then Alford comes in and takes us up a little bit. Gets the bigger name recruits and has a nice run. But the problem we had some player issues and some coaches issues which affected the program. Basically I think the overall "results" were a little better, but product and issues shadowed the results. I mean we were Big Ten Tournment Champs and competitive for regular season championships. But all the off the court issues made it worse.
Lickliter years: Hands down the worst hire in NCAA sports history. The guy was horrible and ran a program that was trending down, and just buried it 6ft under. I mean we couldn't even run a simple warm-up drill because half the time Iowa only dressed 7-8 players. Then when his son started playing, that was the last straw. Lick set it back at least 10 years with all his poor recruiting and program management. He burned a lot of bridges with AAU coaches and other people associated in the recruiting game.
Fran: Inherited a dumpster fire of a program. Did not have a lot to work with, but made it some what work. I gave him the first 3 years as a pass, because we were so bad. But he has improved and gotten us to the NCAA in back to back seasons. Its a start and hopefully it will continue to build. I think Fran is trying to get some connections back in the AAU game and the problem is the Big 10 is so competitive in the recruiting game, a lot of our targets are also being recruited by other Big 10 schools.
I think the "seniors" was a good start. They were a top 25 class and they have done some great things for the program. Yes they have lost some head scratchers and seems like they go backwards at times, but they will get better and will be a solid team.
I think overall we are about back to the days of Dr. Tom in a way. I think it has been a roller coaster of a ride and I think Fran is trying to get the guys in his system where he can be successful. I am upset like anyone after Thursday nights loss, but Fran is our guy. He will get the boys back on track for the rest of the season.
Nice post, I couldn't agree more.
I like the class that is coming in. We have 3 athletic big men and a great shooter.
I really hope Christian Williams develops into the guard that can break a defense down and set up teammates.
This has been Fran's Achilles heel. It's not that he hasn't given 100% effort in trying to land a big time PG.
If Williams isn't the answer, then he will need to find one.
This will take us to the next level. Sweet 16, elite 8, etc...
I like the class that is coming in. We have 3 athletic big men and a great shooter.
I really hope Christian Williams develops into the guard that can break a defense down and set up teammates.
This has been Fran's Achilles heel. It's not that he hasn't given 100% effort in trying to land a big time PG.
If Williams isn't the answer, then he will need to find one.
This will take us to the next level. Sweet 16, elite 8, etc...
Just going off the last three full years, plus the start of this season. Iowa's win loss record in the Big Ten of 9-9, 9-9 and 12-6? That put's our winning percentage in the Big Ten extremely close to the Lute Olson and Dr. Tom years. Olson was .562. Davis was .543. Our three year mark? .556. Now, truth in advertising the first year really hits the record hard, McCaffery's total is 42-48 for .467.
I suppose it all depends on the measures used. But the previous three seasons lead me to believe that we are new at the level of Dr. Tom and Lute Olson. KenPom believes we are the 14th best team in the country right now. So one of the top computer rankings in the country seems to indicate we're doing alright.
There are many measures, again, there are many measures. Do we consider that both Olson and McCaffery had to rebuild? Do we consider that for his last ten years Dr. Tom was just two games over .500, 89-87? Do we look at Olson's first five years only, 46-44? But then we could say Co-Big Ten Champs and a Final Four in there as well!
But we could say that Lester was a big part of that success for Olson and is the difference of one player that "saved" Olson's first five years?
It all comes down to the eye test. If not, the stats seem to show that we ARE in the last three years plus the beginning of this one right at the level of Dr. Tom and Lute Olson. Now we see if we maintain it Like Olson did until he left, or settle down to about .500 basketball in the Big Ten like Davis did.
Based on recruits coming in? My guess is that in the next five years we're going to enjoy greater success on the whole. Maybe not the incredible year like that Final Four...but better on the whole.
I suppose it all depends on the measures used. But the previous three seasons lead me to believe that we are new at the level of Dr. Tom and Lute Olson. KenPom believes we are the 14th best team in the country right now. So one of the top computer rankings in the country seems to indicate we're doing alright.
There are many measures, again, there are many measures. Do we consider that both Olson and McCaffery had to rebuild? Do we consider that for his last ten years Dr. Tom was just two games over .500, 89-87? Do we look at Olson's first five years only, 46-44? But then we could say Co-Big Ten Champs and a Final Four in there as well!
But we could say that Lester was a big part of that success for Olson and is the difference of one player that "saved" Olson's first five years?
It all comes down to the eye test. If not, the stats seem to show that we ARE in the last three years plus the beginning of this one right at the level of Dr. Tom and Lute Olson. Now we see if we maintain it Like Olson did until he left, or settle down to about .500 basketball in the Big Ten like Davis did.
Based on recruits coming in? My guess is that in the next five years we're going to enjoy greater success on the whole. Maybe not the incredible year like that Final Four...but better on the whole.
I guess if you just focus on the last 3 years you could argue we are at the level of Tom Davis. But, if you look at the 16 yr resume we have moved backwards. For those who argue in favor of the status quo, regardless of sport, I guess this post gives them some ammo. Firing Kirk, probably not a good idea (duh, after this year). Firing Tom Davis, not a good idea. Instead of moving up a notch, we regressed a notch.
Davis years. Conference Finish:
3rd
3rd
4th
T-8th
T-5th
5TH
T-3RD
T-9TH
T-7TH
4TH
T-2ND
T-5TH
T-3RD
AVG
4.69 OR 5TH
Since Tom Departed. Conference Finish:
T-7th
T-6th
T-8th
T-8th
4th
7th
T-2nd
T-4TH
8TH
10TH
T-9TH
10TH
T-7TH
6TH
6TH
3RD
AVG
6.56 OR 7TH
Davis years. Conference Finish:
3rd
3rd
4th
T-8th
T-5th
5TH
T-3RD
T-9TH
T-7TH
4TH
T-2ND
T-5TH
T-3RD
AVG
4.69 OR 5TH
Since Tom Departed. Conference Finish:
T-7th
T-6th
T-8th
T-8th
4th
7th
T-2nd
T-4TH
8TH
10TH
T-9TH
10TH
T-7TH
6TH
6TH
3RD
AVG
6.56 OR 7TH
That's one way to analyze it. 5th would be inside the top half. 7th would be inside the bottom half prior to the addition of rutgers/maryland. Currently treading water.
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Sideways seems a good answer here. Fran did a nice job turning things around and I don't see us trending downward from here. Fran's willingness to work hard on the recruiting trail I think balances his shortcomings in game management. To climb upwards from here game management really matters. We saw that in football where Kirk did a major re-evaluation which led to an undefeated season and game management and going back to his old ways IMO cost us in the conference championship game. Many factors come into play and in basketball I see us kind of treading water which seems ok but we could do probably do better.
This sounds accurate. I would argue most believe things are getting better. Assuming that to be true I expect Iowa to start getting past the first round on a regular basis. The question I have is: At what point do fans define Hawkeye BBall as better than the Dr. Tom era?
Well, we did finish tied for third last year and from what I've seen of the Big Ten this year, I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't finish 3rd or 4th this year. It sucks to lose to the Clones, especially the way it played out, but it isn't the end of the world. By pretty much any standard, Coach McCaffery's teams have improved every year and I don't think this year's edition will be any different.
A bit misleading there. Back then the conference was truly the Big Ten. During Lute's early year, Knight was fielding some Indiana teams that were the greatest he ever coached. Mich was loaded. Then you had the Sparty years in the late 70's with Magic. The Big Ten has probably never seen a decade where it was stronger than the 80's. The only schools that were likely to be crappy year in year out, where Northwestern and Wis, everybody else had good teams.
With the conference adding teams, they've added mostly non-basketball powers, who've mostly been lower division teams. PSU, Rutgers, Neb are usually finishing near the bottom of the conference. Maryland is the only team that has had a basketball history of winning. The added teams have made it easier to earn W's to help the win/loss total.
Alford was thought to be the 2d coming of christ in the college basketball world.
The AD thought it was time for a change and a chance to catch a rising star.
It was a bad fit.
Lick looked like a fine coach from a great little program.
He was national Coach of the Year. So Iowa wasn't the only ones wrong.
Just ask Nebraska.
It's tricky business trying to get to the next rarefied level.
The AD thought it was time for a change and a chance to catch a rising star.
It was a bad fit.
Lick looked like a fine coach from a great little program.
He was national Coach of the Year. So Iowa wasn't the only ones wrong.
Just ask Nebraska.
It's tricky business trying to get to the next rarefied level.
Lickliter inherited the Butler job. For some reason, even though he was annointed COY, I cannot imagine that his during his job interview, he was that impressive.
Dr. Tom was 89-87 in the Big Ten following the departure of Raveling's magnificent recruiting class. That pretty much defines mediocrity. I thought his style of play -- the constant press even when the talent was not there to execute it, the constant rotation of players -- was mindless and irritating to watch. His laziness at recruiting produced some of Iowa basketball's most embarrassing failures: Kirk Hinrich, Nick Collison, Raef LaFrentz, all to Kansas. The first two were headed to Iowa State had Tim Floyd stayed. Read Roy Williams' book about the effort he put into recruiting LaFrentz. Bowlsby treated Dr. Tom very generously.
Oh I agree it's not easy. If it were, everyone would be doing it. It took some hubris on Bob's part to think getting past the first round most years was a sign Iowa was underachieving. And IIRC the one year Tom came in 2nd place Minnesota cheated and had to vacate their 1st place title. IMO Iowa wins the Big Ten that season if Minny doesn't have the cheating advantage.
That's all well and good that you personally think Tom was a failure. But what does that make the 16yrs that came after him? You may have mistaken this thread as a call to bring Tom back when in fact it is an examination of the post-Davis years.
The good news I don't think anything in sports indicates the end of the world is nigh. I do think his teams have improved year to year and hope that continues this season. My concern is when will we become relevant again? We certainly were in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. Winning conference titles in every decade from the 40s thru the 70s. In the 90s things waned but the sweet 16 was nice and we were a fixture in the NCAAs. Since then . . . ??????
Since then several Big Ten teams have been sanctioned for cheating. Depending on when you want to place the statute of limitations for calling a school a bunch of cheaters, we have Ohio State, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana and Minnesota for certain. That's going back to the Dr. Tom years but most were after I believe.
We could also consider that the trips to the NCAA rapidly increased once the field grew to 64 teams. But the reverse of that is that some teams from the 50s, and etc, didn't get invited including a Big Ten Co-Champion in 1966 I believe? But it was a shallow pool so if we were invited we stood a better chance of going "far".
I'll just be honest. Just like video killed the radio star. That's right, MTV came out and every butt ugly front man (sorry Kevin Cronin, but you look better today!) was the doom of his band no matter how great they played. Anyway, just like that when ESPN came out the college basketball world was a major money sport and television markets were born. There's the Mission Bell chiming a funeral right there. Only the greatest of small location major tradition programs held their own while other schools rose up.
I was responding to the line, "Firing Tom Davis, not a good idea." Hiring Alford was worse. Lickliter, historically worse. Both decisions at first appeared to be good, if not masterful. But the flaws --- Alford's arrogance, Lickliter's personality defects (chronic depression?) -- were either ignored or well-hidden. The only basketball coach that I was sad to see leave in the last 50 years was Ralph Miller. McCaffery is only a player or two away from joining Miller at the very top of Iowa coaching. Blaming McCaffery for the ISU loss is naive. Does he deserve credit for the win over Fla. State, which is as talented as ISU? No. Peter Bok won that game. Vs. ISU, I wish Bok had gotten the ball on the second-to-last possession that ended with an air ball. Bok was open on the wing.
He's no Bump Elliot that's for sure. And I'm being sincere with that opinion.
Dr. Tom's teams were entertaining, for sure. The one thing that drove me nuts about him was a guy could hit 6 in a row from the field, and Tom would bench him when it was "rotation time". Play the hot hand till he ain't hot no more!
Lute was trending downward, and he saw a rough stretch ahead. Lute was about Lute, as many at Iowa and AZ will confirm. He did open up Chicago-area recruiting, subsequently shut down by the Deon Thomas incident. Bruce Pearl took the fall for that. Dr. Tom escaped scrutinyfor that, as he did in the Boston College betting scandal.
I don't claim this to be 100% accurate but Nick Collison was reportedly a strong Iowa lean until Dr. Tom was put on notice that it was his last year. Raef told the Iowa staff to give him some room in the recruiting process which they had no choice but to honor. ...it was documented at the time that he was a Kansas fan from very early.
Kirk was an ISU guy until Kansas got on. I think the sentiment that Tom should have recruited harder is probably accurate but those examples aren't the ones to use.
Can you explain the "Lute was about Lute" observation? I assume Ralph Miller was about someone else. Possibly a secret identity along the lines of Chuck Barris? Also, can you help me with the math about him trending downward? I apologize, I think I'm a victim of common core when it comes to math.
His last 3 Hawkeye years:
NCAA 1st round
NCAA 2nd round
NCAA sweet 16
The trend after he left Iowa was to become a hall-of-fame coach. I guess you could call many deep runs, multiple Final Fours and a NC a downward trend. But I'm just so terrible at math I can't make the equations work.
Correct. I have little problem understanding how an AD would be impressed with Fran during the interview process, but unless our AD was on some kind of medication, I can't figure out how he was wowed by Lick during the interview process. Lick inherited the Butler job and the school is very easy to recruit local talent, being that it's in Indianapolis. Lick could walk one square mile around the school and find players who would make a competitive team.
I think if attendance hadn't been dropping Davis would have been retained. I didn't mind firing Davis, but goodness don't give him a lame duck year where you waste a year of recruiting. The national media (mostly ESPN back then) ripped Iowa for firing Davis and making him a lame duck, etc. It was terrible PR for the program.
If that's trending downward, I want the current program to follow the same trajectory. Taking the program to the next level would be taking it to where Lute had the program. Alford, Davis, Fran, stick their names in a hat and pull one out with little difference in results. I think all are good but not great coaches.
Key words above are "after he left Iowa." Big Ten wins in Lute's last three years at Iowa: 13, 12 and 10. The year after he left, Iowa went 6-12 in the Big Ten and didn't make the tournament. You need to go back and read the reporting at the time he left. While Stokes and Payne were returning, the key player, Bobby Hansen, was departing, and there was no one to take his place.
Regarding "Lute was about Lute," Google Ron Maly's blog about Des Moines restauranteur Babe Bisignano and Lute, then read Maly's rejoinder. I knew Ralph Miller. I knew people who worked for Lute. The "Lute was about Lute" comment is a euphemism.
Regarding your sarcasm, it may be entertaining to you, but I can assure you to everyone else it is annoying, particularly when you apply it twice in two paragraphs to your math skills. Grow up.
Actually I think people who say things without thinking them thru are what annoys people the most. Here's a simple math equation: How many people are agreeing with you that Ralph Miller was the only coach in the last 50yrs worth keeping?
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He's sticking with his conclusion that an upward trend in the NCAA's is actually a downward trend.
At the time, I fully-supported getting rid of Davis. I realize it sounds crazy, especially to anybody who didn't live through it, but those teams rarely (notice I didn't say "never") competed for anything but a 7-10 seed in the NCAA tourney. In football terms, it would be like going 7-5 or 8-4 every year. It gets you to a bowl. Sometimes you are ranked. But you're never in the same breath as teams like the current Iowa one, and to me and a majority of Hawk fans it felt like we were one coaching change away from moving into the top 15 teams or so.
As it relates to Fran I am all about what he started with and what is his trend. Arrows pointed north for me. Recruiting getting better, on the court getting better and I see nothing but positive signs ahead. We all saw the hand he was dealt when he came in....can you imagine how BAD it was behind the scenes on the recruiting trails with AAUs, etc? In my opinion that takes longer to rebuild and I believe he is doing that.
Yet he is also the AD who hired both Head Coaches in the Rose Bowl this week along with Jim Harbaugh before Shaw.
Funny thing I always remember how excited the fan base was with Alford's hire and lot of Iowa fans upset we missed out on Stoops and "settled" for Ferentz.
