2023 World Championships coming up!

[west2east]

JS Penn st is really good and has all the success currently which makes every kid say I can definitely win there. It won't change for awhile. The 2025 & 2026 classes are huge. JS just think what everyone not named Iowa, Michigan , Oklahoma st and Ohio st are thinking

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

Then I am sorry, but you lack serious reading comprehension and only pick out certain parts, like many do, that fit your narrative. I wasn't even the one that chose those "four gentlemen", I responded to Js for doing so.

The actual words you use MATTER. If JS had simply said, "To even have a true chance to catch and stay with PSU, you need to consistently put individuals at the top of the podium!" I would have 100% agreed with him. But, he did NOT say that.

What he did say, and the ACTUAL part I argued against, is not twistable or debatable. No one with a brain having wrestled or coached at the DI level would say 12 out of 14 AA's and 3 Finals appearances out of that group was "not producing" and "brutal". Would they say they were disappointed? Sure. But, guess what? Every damn guy that starts at the DI level comes into the room with NCAA Champ as their goal. Well over 99 percent of them don't do it. Still, a LOT of them have careers that are far from "brutal" and produce rather well.

1.) by definition not producing would be DNQ or 0-2. Even if you raised the bar since they were high end recruits, you could maybe argue not AAing as that standard. Only 1 guy wins an NCAA title per year, per weight. Over the course of your career, if you were the #1 recruit at your weight your year, you could still go up against as many as 9 other #1 recruits at that same weight. It is beyond asinine to use "not producing" to even remotely describe those careers.

2.) "brutal" is an even more exacting adjective. Brutal implies falling WAY short in a very punishing and completely lacking fashion. All of the forementioned wrestles wrestled their asses off at NCAA's. Other than a couple of freshmen losses for Marinelli and Warner, they were in every match til the end at NCAA's. Brutal just isn't a word that belongs anywhere near what those guys accomplished at NCAA's...

Thank you for clarifying further...I do appreciate it. I'm not changing my stance, but I get what your saying. Hope you're having a good Monday!

 

[MSU158]

Thank you for clarifying further...I do appreciate it. I'm not changing my stance, but I get what your saying. Hope you're having a good Monday!

Even if this was said "tongue in cheek", as I suspect it was, thank you and I hope your and even those closest to you, day, week, year and entirety of existence goes as well as possible!

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

MU fan here. Let's not glaze over the fact that Eierman was a 3x AA at MU. He wasn't an Iowa recruit and a only 1x AA for the Hawks.

As an MU fan, it became very obvious Eierman was never going to win a title. He had some really good wins over some great wrestlers (Yianni, McKenna, Steiber in FS) and never beat them after the 1st match. Simply because they made adjustments to his style and he made 0 adjustments.

Well said. Eierman was as funky as they come but as you said he made no adjustments. If he would have had a better offensive game he could have been unstoppable. Loved watching him wrestle when his opponents played into his hands, but his lack of offense made him very difficult to watch against those who as you said, made the adjustments to his style.

 

[js8793]

But, the 1st part you say simply isn't true for many of them. Retherford wasn't going to and hadn't lost to any of the entire field his last 3 years. Nolf, except for a significant injury was the same, and still won even with the injury. By the end of his career Nickal was so much better than everyone INCLUDING Martin that there was no way he was losing to anyone. Taylor was so far ahead of everyone but Dake it was laughable. Ruth was waxing studs like Lewnes and Amuch and still pinned Dean and beat him convincingly after taking him seriously. Starocci is damn near impossible to score on. Brooks is so much better than everyone on his feet.

That is 10 undefeated seasons and 17 NCAA titles amongst 7 guys, with Starocci and Brooks still having time left. Iowa has only had 1 guy at that level and he won 3 out of 4....

As far as excusing the coaches go, I still expect more from them. I sure as hell haven't given up. But, I think it is more about how ridiculous PSU has been than it his about Iowa somehow underperforming. To me, what PSU has done has NEVER been done before and that includes Iowa under Gable. What Sanderson has created at PSU is a machine like no other. They recruit the best. They have the absolute best coaching staff in the country. They adjust the best. They have the most funding. They have the best RTC. They are located in the best spot possible for wrestling.

Where I believe we actually differ the most is realistic expectations. You are comparing the Iowa coaches to PSU and giving them a "fail" based on that. Meanwhile, I do NOT think it is fair to compare anyone to PSU and EXPECT them to match it. No one EVER has and I think what PSU has done will end up being a Cy Young type record where the sport has evolved so much to the point no one could ever come close to matching it again.

That's only a fraction of the guys who won though. You also have guys like Megaludis, RBY, Nick Lee, Joseph, Matt Brown, Hall, Cassar, Starocci, Brooks, Dean, Wright winning upsets or toss ups by razor thin margins. Ruth had to avenge a loss for his third title. Nickal had to beat 2x champ Dean for his first.

It's clear you don't think it's possible to catch PSU. You may be right. Even so, if second is the ceiling, I at least want to have fun watching a couple Iowa guys win on Saturday night.

Since you have such a problem with my idea that the only possible way to narrow the recruiting gap is to start winning ind. titles, how do you think they can do it without that? And if your answer is just "they can't", you may be right, but shut up and stop derailing threads!

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

Even if this was said "tongue in cheek", as I suspect it was, thank you and I hope your and even those closest to you, day, week, year and entirety of existence goes as well as possible!

My friend, I promise, no tongue in cheek from me. I'm straight up for the most part. And I actually did appreciate you making the effort to better state your case. Sincerely.

 

[js8793]

JS Penn st is really good and has all the success currently which makes every kid say I can definitely win there. It won't change for awhile. The 2025 & 2026 classes are huge. JS just think what everyone not named Iowa, Michigan , Oklahoma st and Ohio st are thinking

Yes, that's the foundation of my whole point. Only way it ever changes is if they can start producing* with what they have. If Iowa goes 10 years with zero non-Spencer titles, the goose is cooked. We're over halfway there already.

*@MSU158 "producing" in this context means winning an ind. title and nothing else. please don't yell at me.

 

[MSU158]

That's only a fraction of the guys who won though. You also have guys like Megaludis, RBY, Nick Lee, Joseph, Matt Brown, Hall, Cassar, Starocci, Brooks, Dean, Wright winning upsets or toss ups by razor thin margins. Ruth had to avenge a loss for his third title. Nickal had to beat 2x champ Dean for his first.

It's clear you don't think it's possible to catch PSU. You may be right. Even so, if second is the ceiling, I at least want to have fun watching a couple Iowa guys win on Saturday night.

Since you have such a problem with my idea that the only possible way to narrow the recruiting gap is to start winning ind. titles, how do you think they can do it without that? And if your answer is just "they can't", you may be right, but shut up and stop derailing threads!

I never said winning individual titles won't shrink the gap. Hell, I actually said it would. All I kept arguing about were the "blanket statements" you used in a ridiculously negative fashion to describe Iowa.

With that said, it isn't the "only possible way". As I said earlier they need to identify those elite recruits that want to overturn the apple cart. There are always those guys out there. Make it a 100% about knocking off the Big Dog. Embrace being the underdog. Stow your pride and own it.

Iowa has been "The Evil Empire" and all the wrestlers were "Darth Vader" even going back to before my time on the mat. Embrace that 'Us against the World" theme and add in the "chip on your shoulder". It's time to knock off the Iowa is better than everyone else schtick and steal the hated phrase from Trump. Change MAGA to MIWGA. "Make Iowa Wrestling Great Again"(where the meaning is exactly what the words say)!

With all that said, we haven't been so far apart on the main part for Iowa to improve as we have been about the wording you used. In fact, if "not producing" "brutal" and "insane failure" weren't used I wouldn't have even responded...

 

[js8793]

I never said winning individual titles won't shrink the gap. Hell, I actually said it would. All I kept arguing about were the "blanket statements" you used in a ridiculously negative fashion to describe Iowa.

With that said, it isn't the "only possible way". As I said earlier they need to identify those elite recruits that want to overturn the apple cart. There are always those guys out there. Make it a 100% about knocking off the Big Dog. Embrace being the underdog. Stow your pride and own it.

Iowa has been "The Evil Empire" and all the wrestlers were "Darth Vader" even going back to before my time on the mat. Embrace that 'Us against the World" theme and add in the "chip on your shoulder". It's time to knock off the Iowa is better than everyone else schtick and steal the hated phrase from Trump. Change MAGA to MIWGA. "Make Iowa Wrestling Great Again"(where the meaning is exactly what the words say)!

With all that said, we haven't been so far apart on the main part for Iowa to improve as we have been about the wording you used. In fact, if "not producing" "brutal" and "insane failure" weren't used I wouldn't have even responded...

Okay, then what? Still have to turn those hypothetical elite recruits into champs, not just AA's. Staff has to figure it out either way. That's all I'm saying. The only way you can disagree is if you think Kem, Marinelli, Eierman, etc... weren't good enough to be champs. I think they all showed that they were.

How would we be feeling if Spencer didn't come here? We'd be 6 years into an individual title drought. Is that acceptable for a program with this amount of resources and tradition?

*by your own metric, Spencer doesn't count because he's generational

 

[MSU158]

Okay, then what? Still have to turn those hypothetical elite recruits into champs, not just AA's. Staff has to figure it out either way. That's all I'm saying. The only way you can disagree is if you think Kem, Marinelli, Eierman, etc... weren't good enough to be champs. I think they all showed that they were.

How would we be feeling if Spencer didn't come here? We'd be 6 years into an individual title drought. Is that acceptable for a program with this amount of resources and tradition?

*by your own metric, Spencer doesn't count because he's generational

I get your point, but my measuring stick isn't quite as narrow as yours. NCAA Titles are the absolute goal, but "only" having finalists is still a success. Hell, the fact that Iowa has had at least 1 finalist since 1990(33 years in a row) is still a great recruiting tool.

Now, to catch PSU, I absolutely agree that isn't enough. But, I just don't see it as anything but a positive overall when looking at Iowa themselves. My measuring stick of Iowa being successful isn't PSU. Your approach is like a professor setting the bell curve off the top score instead of the mean or median when the top score was 100%. Add in that the test was so hard the next best score was 88 and then only a couple others barely scored over 80. If PSU is the 100 and Iowa is the 88, that 88 is still really good and WAY above the average, while PSU is just that 1 class genius who simply has more ability than you do on top of trying just as hard as you do....

 

[vhsalum]

aaaaand Carl does it again. While we're arguing about the failed/not failed careers of top prospects

They're getting Duke and Correa.

Dear Tom...

 

[js8793]

I get your point, but my measuring stick isn't quite as narrow as yours. NCAA Titles are the absolute goal, but "only" having finalists is still a success. Hell, the fact that Iowa has had at least 1 finalist since 1990(33 years in a row) is still a great recruiting tool.

Now, to catch PSU, I absolutely agree that isn't enough. But, I just don't see it as anything but a positive overall when looking at Iowa themselves. My measuring stick of Iowa being successful isn't PSU. Your approach is like a professor setting the bell curve off the top score instead of the mean or median when the top score was 100%. Add in that the test was so hard the next best score was 88 and then only a couple others barely scored over 80. If PSU is the 100 and Iowa is the 88, that 88 is still really good and WAY above the average, while PSU is just that 1 class genius who simply has more ability than you do on top of trying just as hard as you do....

You're trying to impose a lower standard on the rest of us. This is one of the few programs where finishing second isn't success. The standard is higher. You don't have to hold them to it yourself, but it's strange to get mad at others for holding this coaching staff to the standard they publicly set for themselves.

Tom Brands knows the numbers I've shared in this thread are unacceptable.

 

[manatree]

So, about that little tournament in Belgrade…………..

 

[Inthecircle]

aaaaand Carl does it again. While we're arguing about the failed/not failed careers of top prospects

They're getting Duke and Correa.

Dear Tom...

This is no longer a shock.
In the last 3 years PSU has gotten better at recruiting.
Carl has taken a page from Gable, I recruit guys who want to (and can) win Gold Medals and beat Russians.

 

[pish69]

I am so happy MSU became an Iowa fan rather than a PSU fan. I’ve never seen anyone ruin threads like this man does time after time.

God Bless JS for calling out the BS and putting him in his place.

Fun read though.

 

[MSU158]

I am so happy MSU became an Iowa fan rather than a PSU fan. I’ve never seen anyone ruin threads like this man does time after time.

God Bless JS for calling out the BS and putting him in his place.

Fun read though.

When PSU fans come onto the Iowa Hawkeyes Wrestling Forum to "endorse" the person I am going back and forth with, my mission is complete! Thank you for your contribution!

 

[MSU158]

You're trying to impose a lower standard on the rest of us. This is one of the few programs where finishing second isn't success. The standard is higher. You don't have to hold them to it yourself, but it's strange to get mad at others for holding this coaching staff to the standard they publicly set for themselves.

Tom Brands knows the numbers I've shared in this thread are unacceptable.

Sadly, I am someone who NEVER was a fan or even a participant of a program that had such a level of success that it just becomes expected. The Red Wings were the closest and I was never really a big hockey guy.

With the above said, I separate goals, standards and expectations. I look at outside factors and don't ignore them. As such, my arguments, which I am truly trying to rein in to be fully civil and even friendly, are much more nuanced and are probably why we clash.

I am NOT saying you shouldn't want Iowa to still be #1. I am just not a fan of the harsh and negative wording used to describe the "product" Iowa is putting on the mat. They are producing more AA's per year than even PSU. Statistically, their average finish over Brands entire reign is even better than PSU(granted I openly admit that is a misnomer since PSU has won WAY more team titles over that span).

Referring you back to my 1st paragraph, I simply can't wrap my head around the "1st or last mentality" or pooping on 2nd place team finishes, "only" making it to the finals or "just" AAing. Again, you can ABSOLUTELY want more. But, it isn't fair or even realistic to simply expect them to be hanging with PSU, let alone beating them, when they have the biggest name head coach in the sport, the best coaching staff, by far the most funding and an RTC that could damn near win the Olympics over any other country!

 

[Bones Malone]

Personally, I can live with the “hijacking”. This has been as good of an exchange as we’ve seen in a long time. Great debate/discussion. I’ve enjoyed ALL of it. I’m in JS’s corner. If we aren’t willing to ask difficult questions & ultimately find answers to the the incredibly tough riddle that currently is PSU dominance, it is destined to continue.

I am currently unable to “likes” due to security but lots here to like…
Thank you!

 

[MSU158]

Personally, I can live with the “hijacking”. This has been as good of an exchange as we’ve seen in a long time. Great debate/discussion. I’ve enjoyed ALL of it. I’m in JS’s corner. If we aren’t willing to ask difficult questions & ultimately find answers to the the incredibly tough riddle that currently is PSU dominance, it is destined to continue.

I am currently unable to “likes” due to security but lots here to like…
Thank you!

But, I am also in 100% agreement with what you said. I do encourage asking the difficult questions and doing whatever you can to find the answers. My argument was never against that. Want to be first with all your might. Do everything you possibly can do to make it happen. Just don't get so lost in that pursuit that you forget to appreciate what you actually have, when it is better than everyone except PSU...

 

[Bones Malone]

Loved ALL your comments as well MSU. You both make great points.

The Iowa football coach seems happy to be competitive in the B1G West with nauseating complacency. Hawkeye fans have been more than patient with the lack of offense on the football field. You may have struck a nerve, as “fear of complacency” carries over to this forum. Like many, I feel both athletic programs could benefit from fresh perspective, likely in the form of new assistant coaches & philosophies. We hope Iowa leadership can find answers soon…

 

[MSU158]

Loved ALL your comments as well MSU. You both make great points.

The Iowa football coach seems happy to be competitive in the B1G West with nauseating complacency. Hawkeye fans have been more than patient with the lack of offense on the football field. You may have struck a nerve, as “fear of complacency” carries over to this forum. Like many, I feel both athletic programs could benefit from fresh perspective, likely in the form of new assistant coaches & philosophies. We hope Iowa leadership can find answers soon…

When it comes to football, I think you have every right to demand considerably more than what you are getting. With the right coach, I think Iowa could and should be challenging UofM and tOSU for B1G titles every few years and should be the best of the "inferior" west most seasons.

You have the name and the resources to rightly expect to be ahead of everyone not named tOSU, UofM and PSU. The problem is you are now adding some Pac12 teams that are looking to be the best they have been in quite some time. If Iowa doesn't do something soon, you aren't staying the same. You are more than likely falling further behind...

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

I am so happy MSU became an Iowa fan rather than a PSU fan. I’ve never seen anyone ruin threads like this man does time after time.

God Bless JS for calling out the BS and putting him in his place.

Fun read though.

If @T8KUDWN doesn't take umbrage with you for coming here as a PSU poster to criticize MSU, then I am going to think he singled me out because of my takes on the recently deleted dumpster 🔥 thread. 😔

 

[AFHawk86]

 

[The-Dude-Abides]

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Gable = x^2