3 point takedown?

[mustang_horsepower]

As the season winds down, I feel that this may be here to stay. I'm leaning toward not a fan of it overall. Didn't necessarily create more action (or whatever it's intent was and Ironside notes how many matches are 0-0 after 1st period). Crazy idea I had was do a mix where 1st period takedowns worth 3 points but last two periods worth the old 2 points. Then again that becomes complex even more so with some of the current rules in play (such as stalling).

What say you?

 

[MilleGinja]

2-pt takedown
1-pt pushout
No ride time
No escape points, just stand them up to neutral when no action happening on the mat

I realize it’s a lot of changes. Maybe we rename it from folkstyle?

 

[mustang_horsepower]

I also do realize the more rules put into play, coaches and wrestlers will figure out how to game the system.

 

[artradley]

Until a TD is worth three points if you initiated it, and two points if you countered, you won’t increase activity.

The other option is to make it mandatory that a stall be called each period.

This requires judgement on the part of the officials, but it forces them to make a call. I think officials do fine when they have to make a judgement. It’s when they are given the option of making no call that they swallow their whistles. Remove the opportunity for no calls.

 

[dtripp26]

I like it more than I thought I would.

Not a fan of push out rule for college but each year watching guys play the edge makes me more for it.

 

[fourbyfour69]

Until a TD is worth three points if you initiated it, and two points if you countered, you won’t increase activity.

The other option is to make it mandatory that a stall be called each period.

This requires judgement on the part of the officials, but it forces them to make a call. I think officials do fine when they have to make a judgement. It’s when they are given the option of making no call that they swallow their whistles. Remove the opportunity for no calls.

The automatic stall was tried after the first if no scoring. From what I remember is it was hated. Need to take the matches out of the refs hands.

 

[A Fist Full of Hawkeyes]

DO NOT complicate it with 3 points if you initiated vs 2 if you countered, they cannot leave these decisions up to refs, there's way too much subjectivity involved as is.

DO NOT get rid or riding time. This is folkstyle. Folk is all about the three phases, neutral, bottom AND top. The moment we persuade wrestlers not to ride we might as well make the full shift to freestyle.

The rules are complicated as is, they need to simplify things, and the easiest way to do that is to address the stalling. The 3 point TD did nothing to do that and all it did was inflate the overall score, and make it easier to get bonus points, but it definitely did not increase the action.

Fix stalling. Fix stalling. Fix stalling. When the rules committee dedicates themselves to that issue then everything else will start to fall into place.

 

[fourbyfour69]

I think you need to get rid of the SV ride out crap. You can win a match by having one second more of riding time? That’s crazy. Many have discussed getting rid of riding time during the match. Let them go on their feet until someone scores a TD is more definitive than holding on riding.

 

[Pennstate1985]

I like it more than I thought I would.

Not a fan of push out rule for college but each year watching guys play the edge makes me more for it.

I do like the 3 point TD better than I thought I would. I wish we had a pushout rule like freestyle, or at the very least a restart rule from center mat when not engaged for more than 5 seconds within five feet of the edge. It may allow the ref to see who is stalling more as an added bonus.

 

[bammhawk1]

Stalling needs to be more consistent. There is ZERO consistency, as some refs have no clue WTF they are doing. I just find it funny how fast stalling gets called on us at times and for the dumbest things. Oh and once again SPRAWLING DOES NOT EQUAL STALLING!!!!

 

[artradley]

The automatic stall was tried after the first if no scoring. From what I remember is it was hated. Need to take the matches out of the refs hands.

I think right now the entire tone of wrestling is in the referee's hands, as well as individual matches. They are the ones who have brought about the defense oriented sport that we see today, because given a choice between making a stall call or swallowing their whistle, they consistently swallow their whistle.

I think forcing them to make calls actually takes things out of their hands, because the rules themselves will let wrestlers know that aggressive wrestling is going to be rewarded.

I think any given period of wrestling 9 out of 10 people would agree as to which wrestler was being more aggressive. And any given TD 9 out of 10 people would agree as to which wrestler initiated the action. Force the refs to make that call, rewarding the aggressive wrestler, and you will see more aggressive wrestling. Would they miss a call occasionally? Sure. But the sport would be improved.

 

[Trapper85]

Yea, just figuring out how to get more aggressive AND objective/consistent with stall calls would do wonders.

Other ideas, just throwing shit at the wall. Whoever has most takedowns in a period gets choice of up/down/defer next period. If no takedowns or tied, both on feet. Limit riding to 20 or 30 seconds each time, unless you get back points. Can still get 1 minute riding if you get at least 2-3 takedowns. Maybe even make 'feet to back' takedowns 4 points.

I'll hang up and take my "that's stupid" lashings.

 

[blcoach80]

I don't know what the answer is, but leaving any judgment calls to the refs is a terrible plan. Any period with no scoring needs to have a stall call on at least 1 wrestler. I don't hate making the first period takedowns worth 3 points and then 2 after that. Reversals need to be 3 points. Right now 2 has no more value than an escape unless you ride the period out after a reversal. First stepout is a stall, second one is a point. That will stop guys from gaming the edge.

 

[SPOONER]

DO NOT complicate it with 3 points if you initiated vs 2 if you countered, they cannot leave these decisions up to refs, there's way too much subjectivity involved as is.



The rules are complicated as is, they need to simplify things, and the easiest way to do that is to address the stalling.

Amen. Simple is the key. More rules and complexities isn’t the answer. I can’t fathom how terrible refs would be at 3 vs 2 on TDs. They can enforce the rules now let alone something like that.

I like the 3 point takedown. I think it actually does more for more action but that’s anecdotal.

 

[IRONBIRD]

One of the best things about FS is the FIGHTING to stay on the mat!!! The wrestlers learn the rules and adapt. If they would add it to Folkstyle, the wrestlers would have to learn the same thing, fighting to stay in the circle.

Right now, backing out and playing the edge is ruining the sport!

 

[blubberhawk]

As the season winds down, I feel that this may be here to stay. I'm leaning toward not a fan of it overall. Didn't necessarily create more action (or whatever it's intent was and Ironside notes how many matches are 0-0 after 1st period). Crazy idea I had was do a mix where 1st period takedowns worth 3 points but last two periods worth the old 2 points. Then again that becomes complex even more so with some of the current rules in play (such as stalling).

What say you?

Get rid of. Has done nothing to speed up action.
Going to six minute matches might help action.
Get rid of reviews and brick throwing. Still missing calls with the reviews and doing nothing but giving rest and breaking up the action.
Use bigger mats. So sick of edge wrestling I could puke.
Stalling has become an art form. Has to be dealt with. No rhyme or reason for how it is called or not called

 

[eb05]

i thought the 3 point td was a huge success this year. the thing that is needed now is the push out point. it should be obvious to anyone who watches that it would create some great action. no more using the edge as a crutch

 

[blubberhawk]

i thought the 3 point td was a huge success this year. the thing that is needed now is the push out point. it should be obvious to anyone who watches that it would create some great action. no more using the edge as a crutch

Maybe some tech wizard can provide takedown totals to previous seasons? (To see if it really increased action)

 

[Cal98]

Spitballing in this order...
-Step out rule
-Get rid of riding time
-1 point exposures in neutral to minimize the diving under to just tie up and also allows for better prep for freestyle.
-OT kind of similar to freestyle. One wrestler has criteria going into OT. One of the wrestlers is very incentivized to score instead of both just wrestling defensively. Step out rule keeps the one with criteria from running to OB. Freestyle has some great action when one of them knows they're behind on criteria.

 

[sstark46]

-Step out point
-Losing a challenge results in other wrestler getting choice of neutral, top, or bottom

 

[artradley]

Spitballing in this order...
-Step out rule
-Get rid of riding time
-1 point exposures in neutral to minimize the diving under to just tie up and also allows for better prep for freestyle.
-OT kind of similar to freestyle. One wrestler has criteria going into OT. One of the wrestlers is very incentivized to score instead of both just wrestling defensively. Step out rule keeps the one with criteria from running to OB. Freestyle has some great action when one of them knows they're behind on criteria.

I thought the criteria rule was nuts, but in action it has proven to be genius. When there is always a wrestler who is behind it really improves action in the latter part of a match.

I agree with your other points, as well.

 

[A Fist Full of Hawkeyes]

Spitballing in this order...
-Step out rule
-Get rid of riding time
-1 point exposures in neutral to minimize the diving under to just tie up and also allows for better prep for freestyle.
-OT kind of similar to freestyle. One wrestler has criteria going into OT. One of the wrestlers is very incentivized to score instead of both just wrestling defensively. Step out rule keeps the one with criteria from running to OB. Freestyle has some great action when one of them knows they're behind on criteria.

Please do not abandon riding time, again, folk is based on all 3 phases of wrestling and with the introduction of the 3 point TD two of those phases are obsolete.

Riding is an art form and can be just as exciting (and some times more) than the neutral game.

The 3pt TD has accomplished two things: inflated scores and the disinterest to ride.

I'm fine with trying a push-out but my fear is matches will turn into shoving matches, just like A LOT of the slow prodding freestyle matches.

I think an interesting idea is capping the riding time at 1 min and guaranteeing the point, regardless of the period they're in. Both guys can get a RT point, might increase the interest in that aspect. Guys will wear down and could even lead to more action on the feet. Idk.

Easiest thing to do is Fix stalling (and I'm not talking about Daton).

 

[Aardvark86]

Until a TD is worth three points if you initiated it, and two points if you countered, you won’t increase activity.

The other option is to make it mandatory that a stall be called each period.

This requires judgement on the part of the officials, but it forces them to make a call. I think officials do fine when they have to make a judgement. It’s when they are given the option of making no call that they swallow their whistles. Remove the opportunity for no calls.

I like the concept but the execution (including video reviews and Angel) scares me.

 

[T8KUDWN]

I don't see where the 3-point takedown created more action or excitement.
A pretty common scenario is green ankle band gets takedown late in the 1st period and rides out, period ends green up 3-0. 2nd period red takes down, gets the escape, green down blocks, circles, plays the edge, period ends 3-1. Green picks neutral in the 3rd period, down blocks, circles, plays the edge, period ends guy getting 1st takedown wins 3-1.
Most of these refs can only call stalling if it's a black and white rule, where stalling is to be called.
If you get a 4 count for holding on to the leg, let go for a split second and then grab it right away again, you are stalling.
If you run your ass to the out of bounds line after the whistle blows the majority of the time you are stalling.
Carr's "attempts" at returning his guy in the finals was stalling. Smart strategy, but stalling.
In all honesty the count on the holding or touching the leg has to go. There are way too many wrestling situations where the guy has to hold or grab the leg for longer than 5 seconds. It's ridiculous the guy has to let go of the leg and give up an escape, reversal or stall call because the wrestling has taken them to that position.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I don't know what the answer is, but leaving any judgment calls to the refs is a terrible plan. Any period with no scoring needs to have a stall call on at least 1 wrestler. I don't hate making the first period takedowns worth 3 points and then 2 after that. Reversals need to be 3 points. Right now 2 has no more value than an escape unless you ride the period out after a reversal. First stepout is a stall, second one is a point. That will stop guys from gaming the edge.

This ^^ is about where I am. I am pretty neutral on a TD being 3 or 2, but it does seem as though the 3 point TD this DID NOT solve the boring, stalling oriented wrestling. Harrumph!

So, let's go with a push out rule for 1 point, return to the center, both on their feet and see if that breaks the logjam. I have ZERO confidence that anything left for the officials to decide is going to help at all.