you're not taking away Tomasello and Snyder's points. If both get 3rd instead of first, they lose 10 points minimum (1st to 3rd is 4 pt diff, and 2 adv points)
A huge argument against tournaments deciding the best team!
- Thread starter MSU158
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you're not taking away Tomasello and Snyder's points. If both get 3rd instead of first, they lose 10 points minimum (1st to 3rd is 4 pt diff, and 2 adv points)
actually 1st to 3rd is .5 loss in advancement and 6 points for placement(if Tomasello scored no bonus). Snyder would have lost .5 and 2 dropping from 2nd to 3rd(again if no bonus is scored). Deducting 9 would put them at a dead heat, but if we start deducting points from another team we start getting really hazy manipulating it all since an argument could be made that Stieber should have scored something or DiJulius should have won more or Demas or etc.
My point was that I didn't believe Missouri was suited to win it all. Even with a perfect tournament, 100 was at the very end of their possibility while having all 10 guys qualified. Technically they could have won it all, but the percentages of them winning the NCAA tournament vs. a dual meet where considerably different.
We can get nitpicky, but a solid 10 man team like their's was still better geared for duals than tournaments.
Technically anything is possible, but I would have bet big money Missouri wasn't going to be near perfect and win it all. And that is my point. A team like theirs has to be near flawless(relative to each wrestler's capability) to win a tournament format. A team like PSU(this year) can have their 5 top guys wrestle simply to seed and win it all. If Missouri from last year wrestled PSU this year in a dual, they would have had a much better chance beating them than in a tournament.
My point was that I didn't believe Missouri was suited to win it all. Even with a perfect tournament, 100 was at the very end of their possibility while having all 10 guys qualified. Technically they could have won it all, but the percentages of them winning the NCAA tournament vs. a dual meet where considerably different.
We can get nitpicky, but a solid 10 man team like their's was still better geared for duals than tournaments.
Technically anything is possible, but I would have bet big money Missouri wasn't going to be near perfect and win it all. And that is my point. A team like theirs has to be near flawless(relative to each wrestler's capability) to win a tournament format. A team like PSU(this year) can have their 5 top guys wrestle simply to seed and win it all. If Missouri from last year wrestled PSU this year in a dual, they would have had a much better chance beating them than in a tournament.
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I would have also bet
Psu was the best duel meet team this year basically, forfeiting hwt. It is much harder to win duel meets ff a weight than a tourny. Bottom line is this, sometimes there is teams that are good enough to absorb some poor performances, and still win. Last year there were probably 4 or 5 teams that had the firepower to win if things went their way. This year is quite different, if psu wrestles anywhere close to their potential, they will probably run away with it based on their 5 studs. If they get any help at all from the other 5 its over. If not Iowa and okie st will be right there, looking to capitalize. The weird thing is psu has 5 weights that they are very beatable. But still noone matched up with them good enough to even give them a close duel, even with them giving up 6 at hwt
I would have also bet big money tosu wouldn't preform almost perfectly, and win it either,but they did.
Psu was the best duel meet team this year basically, forfeiting hwt. It is much harder to win duel meets ff a weight than a tourny. Bottom line is this, sometimes there is teams that are good enough to absorb some poor performances, and still win. Last year there were probably 4 or 5 teams that had the firepower to win if things went their way. This year is quite different, if psu wrestles anywhere close to their potential, they will probably run away with it based on their 5 studs. If they get any help at all from the other 5 its over. If not Iowa and okie st will be right there, looking to capitalize. The weird thing is psu has 5 weights that they are very beatable. But still noone matched up with them good enough to even give them a close duel, even with them giving up 6 at hwt
we're not manipulating anything or deducting points willy nilly...we're playing whatifs, and in order for Waters, Cox, and Mayes to have "placed their seeds" other people would have had to lose along the way which changes the number of points someone is able to acquire, which is what the discussion was about.
In order for Waters to place first, he would have had to beat Tomasello in the semis. That would put Tomasello on the back side and maybe he loses again and gets 5th/6th, or wins, and wrestles Gilman for 3rd/4th. That is a point shift. Tomasello loses his 6 placement points, his 1 advancement point and Waters gains 6 and 1...that is a 14 point swing in a team race. If Waters wins, he gets his additional 4 points where as the best NATO can get is 4 additional (6th to 3rd) and his .5 adv and any bonus.
So for the visuals:
Missouri and Ohio State have 100 pts
Using the 2015 results:
Nato wins SF match, earns 4 placement, 1 adv point. Ohio State Leads 105-100
Waters wins Cons Semi, earns 3 placement, .5 adv point. Ohio State leads 105-103.5
Nato wins Final, earns 4 placement
Waters wins 3rd, earns 1 placement
Final is 109-104.5.
Now, if Waters wins the SF match, then Missouri is up 105-100. That is a 10 point swing
tOSU did NOT have a perfect tournament. Stieber scored 0 points. DiJulius went 2-2 from the 4 seed. Demas went 1-2 from the 6 seed. Martin went 1-2 from the 10 seed. Tavanello went 0-2. Logan Stieber did what EVERYONE expected him to do. Tomasello had a great draw, but did wrestle very well. Jordan did pretty much as expected. Courts was the one guy that really overachieved. Snyder finished 2 spots above seeding beating Cox in a mild upset.
Luther,
Where did you get the Missouri numbers from? They scored 73.5. Add 6.5 for Waters taking 1st. Add 4 for Mayes taking 3rd because he wouldn't have had the benefit of getting the Forfeit from Ashnault for 7th/8th. Finally, add 10 for Cox taking 1st. Now you have a team that basically performed to seed or above it at every weight. They score 94. Reducing tOSU at 125 and 197 for losses drops them to 93(without them scoring any bonus in the 2 matches they would have now wrestled after losing a match they won.
Now they are basically even, with Missouri having a near perfect performance and tOSU now having an average tournament.
Where did you get the Missouri numbers from? They scored 73.5. Add 6.5 for Waters taking 1st. Add 4 for Mayes taking 3rd because he wouldn't have had the benefit of getting the Forfeit from Ashnault for 7th/8th. Finally, add 10 for Cox taking 1st. Now you have a team that basically performed to seed or above it at every weight. They score 94. Reducing tOSU at 125 and 197 for losses drops them to 93(without them scoring any bonus in the 2 matches they would have now wrestled after losing a match they won.
Now they are basically even, with Missouri having a near perfect performance and tOSU now having an average tournament.
I was doing a hypothetical with easy numbers to show the effect of just one of those matches going the other way.
Missouri #1 seeded wrestlers underperformed their seed plain and simple...had they won the h2h with OSU that they were supposed to, it's a whole new tournament for them
Stieber scored 0 points. Tavanello went 0-2.
exactlly what they were projected
DiJulius went 2-2 from the 4 seed.DiJulius went 2-2 from the 4 seed. ill give you that, but did anyone think they would really wrestle anywhere close to their seeds? not me
Tomasello had a great draw, had the number 1 guy that had already beat him but ok?
. Snyder finished 2 spots above seeding beating Cox in a mild upset.
maybe so, but in doing so he knocked Cox into a very tough wrestleback, where he had wrestle the guy that beat Snyder in the Big Ten finals. resulting in about a 10 point swing
Jordan did pretty much as expected.
Wrong, preformed above his seed and had a shitload of bonus
If the 2 semis would have went mizzus way, they would have, in all likelihood, won the tournament. And done so without wrestling a perfect tourney. 4th seed 0 points,9th seed 1 point, 3 seed 7th place. no real over achievers .
I really think you picked the wrong team to try to make your point. They had the firepower things just didnt go their way. Everything did not have to go perfect, it just had to go good (you know have a couple 4 seeds make the finals)
exactlly what they were projected
DiJulius went 2-2 from the 4 seed.DiJulius went 2-2 from the 4 seed. ill give you that, but did anyone think they would really wrestle anywhere close to their seeds? not me
Tomasello had a great draw, had the number 1 guy that had already beat him but ok?
. Snyder finished 2 spots above seeding beating Cox in a mild upset.
maybe so, but in doing so he knocked Cox into a very tough wrestleback, where he had wrestle the guy that beat Snyder in the Big Ten finals. resulting in about a 10 point swing
Jordan did pretty much as expected.
Wrong, preformed above his seed and had a shitload of bonus
If the 2 semis would have went mizzus way, they would have, in all likelihood, won the tournament. And done so without wrestling a perfect tourney. 4th seed 0 points,9th seed 1 point, 3 seed 7th place. no real over achievers .
I really think you picked the wrong team to try to make your point. They had the firepower things just didnt go their way. Everything did not have to go perfect, it just had to go good (you know have a couple 4 seeds make the finals)
MSU158 where is this hybrid team/traditional tourney format working? How long has it been working? Would you describe its inception and application as having the kind of positive impact you claim the sport needs? In other words, how much growth have you seen come out of this type of plan?
Or is this just an idea between you and some friends and you want to try it out with the sport's Crown Jewel because you have a really good feeling about "your idea?"
Or is this just an idea between you and some friends and you want to try it out with the sport's Crown Jewel because you have a really good feeling about "your idea?"
Really? My idea? I have zero influence in the NWCA and, inevitably, the NCAA. The proposals were initiated by a bunch of coaches with guys like Koll, JRob and Ryan at the forefront. It almost got voted in and then subsequent votes lost support when Sanderson and Brands were very adamant and vocal in not supporting it.
Basically, it was NEVER implemented so there are NO stats to quote whether it would or wouldn't work. I believed it had potential, and still do. If the "Crown Jewel" ends up 90% of what it was and you end up with another event that gets 75% of that, you end up with 2 great events and a considerable more amount of good exposure for the sport. You also add an avenue for the casual fan to follow a simple and easy championship format, both live, and especially on TV.
I am not 100% positive it will work. But, like EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE, if you don't try you can't succeed!
MSU158 the NCAA wasn't going to budge, rightfully so. And it almost went nowhere despite a fast tracked attempt at sneaking it through the NWCA.
And here you are today, with this idea....
So let me get this right, this idea has never been tried, on any level. You have no evidence to support your claims of growth and you want us to support it?
I'd recommend that the NWCA work on establishing a single format for the Natl Duas. And I'd recommend that you make a similar investment in trying out this idea on a local level. Just think MSU158 you could bring this idea and all the potential you see to a local club or HS team. And then you will have evidence! aka, the basis for good decisions.
Like you said, "If you don't try you can't succeed."
And here you are today, with this idea....
So let me get this right, this idea has never been tried, on any level. You have no evidence to support your claims of growth and you want us to support it?
I'd recommend that the NWCA work on establishing a single format for the Natl Duas. And I'd recommend that you make a similar investment in trying out this idea on a local level. Just think MSU158 you could bring this idea and all the potential you see to a local club or HS team. And then you will have evidence! aka, the basis for good decisions.
Like you said, "If you don't try you can't succeed."
bluroptimo,
You are acting like this is my 1 person sole agenda. If it has never been tried how would you get evidence EITHER WAY?
Finally, you are trying your hardest to be condescending. Try it at a local level? Really? No aspect of wrestling compares to DI. There is no way to get concrete data withouth trying something to ACTUALLY SEE how it works.
Oh, and Michigan ALREADY does a Dual Championship and a non team scoring Individual Tournament. Both are successful and they have been doing so since 1988....................
You are acting like this is my 1 person sole agenda. If it has never been tried how would you get evidence EITHER WAY?
Finally, you are trying your hardest to be condescending. Try it at a local level? Really? No aspect of wrestling compares to DI. There is no way to get concrete data withouth trying something to ACTUALLY SEE how it works.
Oh, and Michigan ALREADY does a Dual Championship and a non team scoring Individual Tournament. Both are successful and they have been doing so since 1988....................
Just wondering. Is MSU158 the poster Lambertt or whoever he is wanted to kick the crap out of? If so, I can see why.
Lol..I'm a PSU fan, don't post much but do lurk here and there, but for whatever reason, I don't care what team you're a fan of, MSU never fails to piss someone off. I feel like he's one of those guys that would be very hard to be friends with in real life.
Gotta love it. Where do I get personal FIRST with anyone. I don't disrespect anyone's opinion. I simply give my reasons why I agree or disagree. If that makes you want to fight me, shame on you...............
I like MSU and what he brings to this board. His wrestling discussions are never personal for him, unless an opposing arguer makes it personal. I've read a lot of what he's posted over the past few years mostly on themat and have always respected his posts and opinions, especially his willingness to defend and opinion even if it is an unpopular one. Not many people will vigorously defend their opinions even when in the minority. I think it makes for great wrestling talk in general, even if the topics get a bit heated. Excuse me for doing a character analysis on you MSU. I was typing this up as you posted your post above. Lol.
I think MSU and Lambert are actually the same person. MSU likes to debate so I think he created the alter ego "Lambert" to create a faux argument.
slicone,
I disagree with you regarding Missouri because I think several guys were over-seeded and didn't see anyway they could hold their seed. Houdashelt and Cox were the most likely to do so, but even they both had super top heavy talent to contend with. In the end, I was referencing their high end talent because they didn't have a "sure thing". If Waters, Houdashelt and Cox didn't win would you have been super surprised?
I don't want to have a back and forth and have people want to "fight" me so I will drop out of this. If you disagree with me on Missouri, feel free. I never thought they would win it and expected them to fall right around where they did in the team standings.
I disagree with you regarding Missouri because I think several guys were over-seeded and didn't see anyway they could hold their seed. Houdashelt and Cox were the most likely to do so, but even they both had super top heavy talent to contend with. In the end, I was referencing their high end talent because they didn't have a "sure thing". If Waters, Houdashelt and Cox didn't win would you have been super surprised?
I don't want to have a back and forth and have people want to "fight" me so I will drop out of this. If you disagree with me on Missouri, feel free. I never thought they would win it and expected them to fall right around where they did in the team standings.
Lol, now that was funny! If I created an alter ego(never have, never will) for sake of a faux argument the guy would at least debate with me instead of making personal attacks.
I love to talk wrestling and enjoy a good, civil back and forth. It is never personal with me, unless someone else makes it so.
Have a wonderful day, all!
I sure didn't take anything personal, and I certainly do not want to fight you(i was a 150lber dont like my chances up a weight). And of course I would not of picked Mizzu to win. I also would (and did) pick them to get around they got. The part I disagreed with the most was they didnt have the horse's, to win it. I felt and still feel they did have the manpower, just fell a couple points short in a couple key matches. But I respect your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it.
'88 was long enough ago to allow for a good idea to catch on. Don't you think it's worth asking why it didn't? IL, OH and PA are close to MI.
So take me back to '88. What did that change in format do for the state of MI wrestling? Did you see growth there that could be used as evidence to support your claim that this would result in growth at the D1 level?
Right or wrong, the MHSAA doesn't like to share it's sandbox with other states. We have some of the most restrictive traveling restrictions and won't accept the new weight classes. We are the last state organization that would "promote" what we do to others.
Regardless of your incessant questions, I am not a market researcher and don't have the clout to make these things happen. I simply gave my opinion on what I would like to see happen and the reasons why. In fact, I even qualified my stance in saying I don't guarantee it would be beneficial. I simply think it is worth trying.
Regardless of your incessant questions, I am not a market researcher and don't have the clout to make these things happen. I simply gave my opinion on what I would like to see happen and the reasons why. In fact, I even qualified my stance in saying I don't guarantee it would be beneficial. I simply think it is worth trying.
This would make most of the dual meet season even more irrelevant. There are very few meets ever in doubt for Iowa. Even if Iowa is favored in all 10 weights, I still pay close attention because a 7 vs 9 type match at one weight can be huge for seeding at NCAA's.
What will hold the interest of the fans when Iowa wrestles Northwestern if the seeding implications of Sorenson vs Tsirtsis match are removed.
What will hold the interest of the fans when Iowa wrestles Northwestern if the seeding implications of Sorenson vs Tsirtsis match are removed.
I've seen how you qualify your stance and you said it would do some of this and that.
Maybe we can just agree that if people don't like this idea it's not because they are stubborn. It's for other reasons. Some good reasons.
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