A Reprise: Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth

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Rambam99

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Where, oh where, does the fun restart here?

This was interesting:

Wade's analysis is a striking example of Christianity's decline. 170 years of critical scholarship, dating back at least to J. Strauss' Life of Jesus Critically Examined (1835), have demolished any possible rational defense of the gospels as history. Conservative believers are unable to refute Strauss' analysis, but they are able to ignore it. And they do.

Conservative scholarship generally begins with the axiom that the bible stories are true, and "reasons" from there. Fine. We can all be friends. But the result is

1. Conservative believers—Wade is an example—are unaware of the most basic facts and reasons supporting the conclusions of critical scholarship. It's not that they don't believe the reasoning; it's that they don't even know what it is.

2. Conservative "scholarship" fails to address critical facts and reasons, making conservative "scholarship" an in-house exercise, persuasive only to the already persuaded.

3. Conservative apologetics often, as in Wade's case, boils down simply to pep-rally boosterism, repeating what you believe, over and over, as if really really meaning what you say will make it true.

Stubborn insistence on the truth of the ancient myths is, in my opinion, is a recipe for the decline and fall of the religion. Makes you look silly. The greater culture laughs at you. The crappy thing is that as they ride their myths into irrelevance, conservative believers are taking with them the values—the morality, the belief in right and wrong and goodness and evil—that have been at the center of our culture and success.

That's a bad thing.


Wonder what the over/under is on HROT's Jesus police making some arrests in this thread?

http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/getting_started_pocm.html
 

Glen Ross

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Originally posted by Rambam99:
The crappy thing is that as they ride their myths into irrelevance, conservative believers are taking with them the values—the morality, the belief in right and wrong and goodness and evil—that have been at the center of our culture and success.

That's a bad thing.
Are athiests and agnostics unable to distinguish right from wrong, good from evil? Are they unable to live a moral life without religion?

This seems contrary to what I've seen declared on HROT.
 

DanHawkPella

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Jul 24, 2001
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I'm a real skeptic, but even I don't summarily dismiss the Bible as definitively untrue.

Contrarily, the Bible has been shown to have a vast amount of historical accuracy, and more is proven every year. Personally, I am fairly comfortable that Jesus and his followers existed and that the events (short of the miracles) happened about the way they are described.

Is Jesus the Son of God and are all of the opinions given by the writers in the Bible unerring? That is a much bigger matter. At the end of all of these discussions.....


NOBODY KNOWS!

Or, at least, nobody can PROVE it one way or the other.


I still think that despite the many holes in the Bible that it very well could hold some valuable truths relevant to a one true God. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it even if one finds it impossible to believe everything that the "true" Christians are selling.
 

PurdueClassof02

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Wonder what the over/under is on HROT's Jesus police making some arrests in this thread?

They are not the Jesus Police, they are "The Friends of God"
 

SL Hawk Fan

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Feb 5, 2003
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NPR: the fish just aren't biting today, huh? I see your comments in the Greek thread haven't garnered much interest either. Of course, you came in a little later than I would have expected on that thread.

Don't give up though, I do enjoy the little frenzies you can create.
 

Jeli

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Friends implies a mutuality for which absolutely no physical data exists.

The invisible dragon blows its invisible, heatless fire, to negligible effect.
 

I was Bowie

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History is written by the victors. There were many variants of CHRISTIANS in early times and they were beaten back by the Orthodox view which dominates today and was then championed by Rome when Constantine converted.

The history one can garnered from the Biblical accounts must be taken in from the perspective and bias of the writer. The best history is when names and dates can be cross-referenced from other sources that came from other perspective and biases. If those sources agreed on dates, names, events than the probability of factual content increases greatly.
 

Wild Onion

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Originally posted by Rambam99:
Stubborn insistence on the truth of the ancient myths is, in my opinion, is a recipe for the decline and fall of the religion. Makes you look silly.
When should we expect that to begin?
 

LloydXmas

HR MVP
Mar 31, 2003
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Originally posted by Rambam99:
Where, oh where, does the fun restart here?

This was interesting:

Wade's
analysis is a striking example of Christianity's decline. 170 years of
critical scholarship, dating back at least to J. Strauss' Life of Jesus
Critically Examined (1835), have demolished any possible rational
defense of the gospels as history. Conservative believers are unable to
refute Strauss' analysis, but they are able to ignore it. And they do.

Conservative
scholarship generally begins with the axiom that the bible stories are
true, and "reasons" from there. Fine. We can all be friends. But the
result is

1. Conservative believers—Wade is an example—are
unaware of the most basic facts and reasons supporting the conclusions
of critical scholarship. It's not that they don't believe the
reasoning; it's that they don't even know what it is.

2.
Conservative "scholarship" fails to address critical facts and reasons,
making conservative "scholarship" an in-house exercise, persuasive only
to the already persuaded.

3. Conservative apologetics often, as
in Wade's case, boils down simply to pep-rally boosterism, repeating
what you believe, over and over, as if really really meaning what you
say will make it true.

Stubborn insistence on the truth of the
ancient myths is, in my opinion, is a recipe for the decline and fall
of the religion. Makes you look silly. The greater culture laughs at
you. The crappy thing is that as they ride their myths into
irrelevance, conservative believers are taking with them the values—the
morality, the belief in right and wrong and goodness and evil—that have
been at the center of our culture and success.

That's a bad thing.


Wonder what the over/under is on HROT's Jesus police making some arrests in this thread?
What about Pascal's Wager?
 

ThumperHawk

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Sep 30, 2001
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Originally posted by Wild Onion:

Originally posted by Rambam99:
Stubborn insistence on the truth of the ancient myths is, in my opinion, is a recipe for the decline and fall of the religion. Makes you look silly.
When should we expect that to begin?
Oh, I'd say any day now:

Religious Identification among American Adults
In 1990, ninety percent of the adult population identified with one or another religion group. In 2001, such identification has dropped to eighty-one percent.

...the proportion of the population that can be classified as Christian has declined from eighty-six in 1990 to seventy-seven percent in 2001.

...the greatest increase in absolute as well as in percentage terms has been among those adults who do not subscribe to any religious identification; their number has more than doubled from 14.3 million in 1990 to 29.4 million in 2001; their proportion has grown from just eight percent of the total in 1990 to over fourteen percent in 2001.


The above, of course, says nothing about the much-bemoaned secularization trends in the vast majority of other Western nations.
This post was edited on 2/28 1:27 PM by ThumperHawkif(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}

American Religious Identification Survey
 

Wild Onion

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Originally posted by ThumperHawk:
Originally posted by Wild Onion:

Originally posted by Rambam99:
Stubborn insistence on the truth of the ancient myths is, in my opinion, is a recipe for the decline and fall of the religion. Makes you look silly.
When should we expect that to begin?
Oh, I'd say any day now:

Religious Identification among American Adults
In 1990, ninety percent of the adult population identified with one or another religion group. In 2001, such identification has dropped to eighty-one percent.

...the proportion of the population that can be classified as Christian has declined from eighty-six in 1990 to seventy-seven percent in 2001.

...the greatest increase in absolute as well as in percentage terms has been among those adults who do not subscribe to any religious identification; their number has more than doubled from 14.3 million in 1990 to 29.4 million in 2001; their proportion has grown from just eight percent of the total in 1990 to over fourteen percent in 2001.


The above, of course, says nothing about the much-bemoaned secularization trends in the vast majority of other Western nations.
This post was edited on 2/28 1:27 PM by ThumperHawkif(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}

Of course, you neglect to mention the tremendous growth of Christianity in other parts of the world. There are more Christians alive today than at any other point in history.
 

ThumperHawk

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Originally posted by Rambam99:
Wonder what the over/under is on HROT's Jesus police making some arrests in this thread?
Clearly the author has not had enough formal training in textual criticism, linguistics, archaeology, apologetics, marketing, game theory, telepathy, etc.

Regards, Dave
 

PurdueClassof02

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Sep 30, 2002
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Of course, you neglect to mention the tremendous growth of Christianity in other parts of the world. There are more Christians alive today than at any other point in history.

So you are preying on the poor and uneducated in the third world?
 

FeederCow

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Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
Of course, you neglect to mention the tremendous growth of Christianity in other parts of the world. There are more Christians alive today than at any other point in history.

So you are preying on the poor and uneducated in the third world?



Pathetic.
 

Wild Onion

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Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
Of course, you neglect to mention the tremendous growth of Christianity in other parts of the world. There are more Christians alive today than at any other point in history.

So you are preying on the poor and uneducated in the third world?
I expected that response. Nice work.
 

Rambam99

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Originally posted by Wild Onion:

Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
Of course, you neglect to mention the tremendous growth of Christianity in other parts of the world. There are more Christians alive today than at any other point in history.

So you are preying on the poor and uneducated in the third world?
I expected that response. Nice work.

They are preying, even praying, on them. That is how the modern church is gaining market share.

And as far as there being more christians alive now than at any point in history (a link would be nice) it evidently has escaped notice to that poster that there are simply more people alive now than at any time in history.

What makes any rational person think that the supreme being limits salvation to those who only "believe" in a certain man? Why send the righteous of other faiths to hell?

Americans, maybe everybody, view their religion as they do their favorite sports team. They don't bother thinking about it, they like it because more than likely that's what their parents liked, and the crowd they hang around with also roots for their team. It's a social thing.

Christianity will eventually go down in the history books as the institution that codified anti-gay bias and kept gay hatred alive well past its time. That and saying the sun revolved around the earth, that evolution didn't exist, and that the earth is 6,000 years old.
This post was edited on 2/28 2:13 PM by Rambam99if(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}
 

NewsBreaker

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Make this a second time James Cameron has made NPR go all gooey inside.

Last time was truly magical...a darkened theater, the single serving of popcorn, but with the large size's serving of butter. Oh, that slippery butter, and a single tear when poor Leo became a perminent resident of the North Atlantic.

NEVER AGAIN! NPR swore to never again so fall in love with this man and his cinematic miracles. That is, until he made a movie about Jesus!

Break out the astrolube, Texas is gonna be sweatin come Sunday night!
 

Rambam99

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Make this a second time James Cameron has made NPR go all gooey inside.

How is there a Cameron connection here?

You are confused. Or ignorant. Or both. The site linked above is independent of Camerion and existed well before his recent announcement.
 

Wild Onion

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Originally posted by Rambam99:
And as far as there being more christians alive now than at any point in history (a link would be nice) it evidently has escaped notice to that poster that there are simply more people alive now than at any time in history.
First we hear that the downfall of Christianity is inevitable. Now, we're hearing that the modern church is gaining "market share." Hmmm.
 

Rambam99

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Originally posted by Wild Onion:

Originally posted by Rambam99:
And as far as there being more christians alive now than at any point in history (a link would be nice) it evidently has escaped notice to that poster that there are simply more people alive now than at any time in history.

First we hear that the downfall of Christianity is inevitable. Now, we're hearing that the modern church is gaining "market share." Hmmm.

I once thought your abilities and acumen were slightly above average. I was incorrect.

You do realize, don't you (rhetorical because you obviously don't) that one's market share may increase (it is a relative statistic) while the overall market is declining? Hence "share" of the market?

Don't tell me you're a lawyer, please. We have enough lawyers already who can't think their way out of a wet paper bag and we certainly don't need to add to those ranks.
This post was edited on 2/28 2:39 PM by Rambam99if(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}
 

iowahawkeyes1986

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Jul 14, 2003
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Originally posted by Glen Ross:

Originally posted by Rambam99:
The crappy thing is that as they ride their myths into irrelevance, conservative believers are taking with them the values—the morality, the belief in right and wrong and goodness and evil—that have been at the center of our culture and success.

That's a bad thing.


Are athiests and agnostics unable to distinguish right from wrong, good from evil? Are they unable to live a moral life without religion?

This seems contrary to what I've seen declared on HROT.


Since when did religion develope the monopoly on morals?
 

Wild Onion

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Feb 14, 2005
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Originally posted by Rambam99:
Originally posted by Wild Onion:



Originally posted by Rambam99:
And as far as there being more christians alive now than at any point in history (a link would be nice) it evidently has escaped notice to that poster that there are simply more people alive now than at any time in history.

First we hear that the downfall of Christianity is inevitable. Now, we're hearing that the modern church is gaining "market share." Hmmm.


I once thought your abilities and acumen were slightly above average. I was incorrect.

You do realize, don't you (rhetorical because you obviously don't) that one's market share may increase (it is a relative statistic) while the overall market is declining? Hence "share" of the market?

Don't tell me you're a lawyer, please. We have enough lawyers already who can't think their way out of a wet paper bag and we certainly don't need to add to those ranks.
This post was edited on 2/28 2:39 PM by Rambam99if(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}
Nice try.

Christianity, by most accounts has a positive year-over-year growth rate. If (as you say) "market share" is also increasing, I simply want to know when I should expect the inevitable downfall of Christianity to begin.

Link
 

iowahawkeyes1986

HR Legend
Jul 14, 2003
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Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
Of course, you neglect to mention the tremendous growth of Christianity in other parts of the world. There are more Christians alive today than at any other point in history.

So you are preying on the poor and uneducated in the third world?

No, just the uneducated. They try and get them young too. Easier to brainwash people when they are young.
 

Rambam99

HR All-American
Sep 29, 2004
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Originally posted by Wild Onion:

Originally posted by Rambam99:

Originally posted by Wild Onion:






Originally posted by Rambam99:
And as far as there being more christians alive now than at any point in history (a link would be nice) it evidently has escaped notice to that poster that there are simply more people alive now than at any time in history.


First we hear that the downfall of Christianity is inevitable. Now, we're hearing that the modern church is gaining "market share." Hmmm.


I once thought your abilities and acumen were slightly above average. I was incorrect.

You do realize, don't you (rhetorical because you obviously don't) that one's market share may increase (it is a relative statistic) while the overall market is declining? Hence "share" of the market?

Don't tell me you're a lawyer, please. We have enough lawyers already who can't think their way out of a wet paper bag and we certainly don't need to add to those ranks.

This post was edited on 2/28 2:39 PM by Rambam99
if(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}
Nice try.

Christianity, by most accounts has a positive year-over-year growth rate. If (as you say) "market share" is also increasing, I simply want to know when I should expect the inevitable downfall of Christianity to begin.

Far be it from a person who cites a wiki link to actually read said link.

Growth of Christianity:
1.36%: Christianity

vs. this:

the annual growth in the world population over the same period is 1.41%

Not even keeping pace with population growth.
 

Rambam99

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Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:

Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
Of course, you neglect to mention the tremendous growth of Christianity in other parts of the world. There are more Christians alive today than at any other point in history.

So you are preying on the poor and uneducated in the third world?

No, just the uneducated. They try and get them young too. Easier to brainwash people when they are young.

The Catholic church is hitting the hispanic market hard.

In fact, in the southern environs of the US, where the Hispanic catholic influence has traditionally been heavy, the church is adapting an orange juice ad campaign slogan - "orange juice, it's not just for breakfast anymore" and coming up with "the Catholic church, it's not just for Mexicans anymore". Recent data show a less than promising response.

In fact, the Cardinal in LA (that's Los Angeles, not Lousiana) is being called "Rogelio Mahony" instead of Roger Mahony. It's also probably Jose Ratzinger to them as well.
 

PurdueClassof02

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Sep 30, 2002
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The weak-minded will always need to find their strength in numbers instead of themselves so religion will be around for sometime. It is kind of like belonging to a Frat, the idea is not about what the frat does or stands for, but merely feeling safe you belong to a group.
 

Wild Onion

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Feb 14, 2005
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Originally posted by Rambam99:
Originally posted by Wild Onion:



Originally posted by Rambam99:



Originally posted by Wild Onion:






Originally posted by Rambam99:
And as far as there being more christians alive now than at any point in history (a link would be nice) it evidently has escaped notice to that poster that there are simply more people alive now than at any time in history.


First we hear that the downfall of Christianity is inevitable. Now, we're hearing that the modern church is gaining "market share." Hmmm.



I once thought your abilities and acumen were slightly above average. I was incorrect.

You do realize, don't you (rhetorical because you obviously don't) that one's market share may increase (it is a relative statistic) while the overall market is declining? Hence "share" of the market?

Don't tell me you're a lawyer, please. We have enough lawyers already who can't think their way out of a wet paper bag and we certainly don't need to add to those ranks.

This post was edited on 2/28 2:39 PM by Rambam99
if(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}


Nice try.

Christianity, by most accounts has a positive year-over-year growth rate. If (as you say) "market share" is also increasing, I simply want to know when I should expect the inevitable downfall of Christianity to begin.

Far be it from a person who cites a wiki link to actually read said link.

Growth of Christianity:
1.36%: Christianity

vs. this:

the annual growth in the world population over the same period is 1.41%

Not even keeping pace with population growth.
You said Christianity is gaining "market share," not me.
 

Rambam99

HR All-American
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Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
The weak-minded will always need to find their strength in numbers instead of themselves so religion will be around for sometime. It is kind of like belonging to a Frat, the idea is not about what the frat does or stands for, but merely feeling safe you belong to a group.

Good analogy.

At least with the frat the group is indeed superior to the non-frat group.
 

PurdueClassof02

HR Legend
Sep 30, 2002
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Originally posted by Rambam99:

Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
The weak-minded will always need to find their strength in numbers instead of themselves so religion will be around for sometime. It is kind of like belonging to a Frat, the idea is not about what the frat does or stands for, but merely feeling safe you belong to a group.

Good analogy.

At least with the frat the group is indeed superior to the non-frat group.

Depends on which Frat you are a member of.
 

FeederCow

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Jan 7, 2007
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Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
The weak-minded will always need to find their strength in numbers instead of themselves so religion will be around for sometime. It is kind of like belonging to a Frat, the idea is not about what the frat does or stands for, but merely feeling safe you belong to a group.

The "weak minded" thing is such a crock. Get over your pride, dude.
 

PurdueClassof02

HR Legend
Sep 30, 2002
17,156
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Originally posted by FeederCow:

Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
The weak-minded will always need to find their strength in numbers instead of themselves so religion will be around for sometime. It is kind of like belonging to a Frat, the idea is not about what the frat does or stands for, but merely feeling safe you belong to a group.

The "weak minded" thing is such a crock. Get over your pride, dude.

No different than recovering drug addicts and alcoholics who have lost their way. Christians need help since they fell off the wagon. Secular people don't need the help. There is nothing wrong with getting help, but just admit you fell off the wagon and we didn't to show some honesty with your dire situation.
 

PurdueClassof02

HR Legend
Sep 30, 2002
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Originally posted by Wild Onion:

Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
Secular people don't need the help.
That's hilarious. You don't get out much, do you?

And you don't get out of the Church much because you can't rely on yourself to form a free-thought.
 

Wild Onion

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Feb 14, 2005
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Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
Originally posted by Wild Onion:

Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
Secular people don't need the help.
That's hilarious. You don't get out much, do you?

And you don't get out of the Church much because you can't rely on yourself to form a free-thought.
Yep, got me there. I'm incapable of original thought.
 

FeederCow

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Jan 7, 2007
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Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
Originally posted by Wild Onion:

Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
Secular people don't need the help.
That's hilarious. You don't get out much, do you?

And you don't get out of the Church much because you can't rely on yourself to form a free-thought.

Ironic. Those who are slaves to themselves and their pride just don't see it.

I will give you this, though. There are quite a few weak minded "Christians" in this nation that really are anything but Christians. And I guess I'd rather someone just deny the truths of Christianity with your audacity than to float along with a feel good version of Christianity that is so watered down it is meaningless.
 

P Shiver

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Feb 19, 2007
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Originally posted by NewsBreaker:
Make this a second time James Cameron has made NPR go all gooey inside.

Last time was truly magical...a darkened theater, the single serving of popcorn, but with the large size's serving of butter. Oh, that slippery butter, and a single tear when poor Leo became a perminent resident of the North Atlantic.

NEVER AGAIN! NPR swore to never again so fall in love with this man and his cinematic miracles. That is, until he made a movie about Jesus!

Break out the astrolube, Texas is gonna be sweatin come Sunday night!

At what point will radio stations in the general Cedar Falls area go DJ-free?
 

ThumperHawk

HR All-American
Sep 30, 2001
4,212
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Originally posted by Wild Onion:

Originally posted by PurdueClassof02:
Of course, you neglect to mention the tremendous growth of Christianity in other parts of the world. There are more Christians alive today than at any other point in history.

So you are preying on the poor and uneducated in the third world?
I expected that response. Nice work.
Expected it, and yet still had no answer for it. Surely you do not expect us to believe that world opinion is suddenly a high priority amongst the Jesus Patriots? Convenient how foreign opinions only matter when they help reinforce your misconceptions.
 

NewsBreaker

HR Legend
Jun 5, 2002
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Originally posted by P Shiver:

Originally posted by NewsBreaker:
Make this a second time James Cameron has made NPR go all gooey inside.

Last time was truly magical...a darkened theater, the single serving of popcorn, but with the large size's serving of butter. Oh, that slippery butter, and a single tear when poor Leo became a perminent resident of the North Atlantic.

NEVER AGAIN! NPR swore to never again so fall in love with this man and his cinematic miracles. That is, until he made a movie about Jesus!

Break out the astrolube, Texas is gonna be sweatin come Sunday night!

At what point will radio stations in the general Cedar Falls area go DJ-free?

From the time you clicked "reply", through hitting the "quote" button, and all the while you were banging that thing out, you really though you were being quite clever, didn't you?

Your town must be without power at the moment, otherwise they'd have nothing better to do then wonder where their idiot ran off to.
 
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