I do? LOL - you are a classic bible beater who thinks they know about other people when you have no ****ing clue. Such sanctimonious bullshit. Fix yourself Skippy - you're WAYYYY too flawed to be trying to fix anyone else.
Are you religious?
- Thread starter RagnarLothbrok
- Start date
Some folks can’t deal with that. So they convince themselves they will continue to live on in some manner.
Why would I believe that? Ohhh.... I see, just another wrong conclusion you jumped to.
Got other things to do now. It's been fun pulling on your strings again. Dance on.
That was fun. But did it prove her cure was a divine act?
What we are told - and I'm willing to accept for sake of discussion - is that her case was extremely thoroughly investigated by respected medical and scientific personnel.
So the recovery wasn't fake.
Next we are told that they could find no conventional explanation.
From which the religious personnel conclude that it's a miracle.
Two things....
First, it seems that the doctors and such who conducted the investigation were all believers. That doesn't mean they were wrong but they are clearly people who are willing to accept "magic" as a legitimate answer. I wonder if an accomplished team of atheist doctors and scientists would have agreed that there is no conventional explanation.
Second, and even more important in my mind, is that the conclusion "therefore this was a miracle" isn't the only possible answer.
I would suggest that an even more plausible answer is that "we haven't discovered the explanation."
So while it certainly seems that these folks were not lazy in their investigation, it may still be the case that they were lazy in their conclusion.
But the gospels weren't written for the purpose of presenting a historical account. They were intended to convince people to buy into a sect of Judaism.
I swept past this the first time you said it but now I have to ask. What is your conception of "Beatific Vision"?
Death certainly seems to await. And all the evidence suggests we'll be dead forever.
Then again the Hindus and some others think we'll be reincarnated. No evidence for that, but it's an interesting concept.
They have atheist and Jewish doctors on the Lourdes medical panel.
The point is to be unbiased.
The vision of God with the communion of saints for all eternity.
Beatific Vision
Beatific Vision, the immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven. It is called "vision" to distinguish it from the mediate knowledge of God which the human mind may attain in the present life.
They contain historical facts of Jesus. I've detailed them in this thread.
Humans have a particular difficulty understanding probability and their tendency is to attribute magical thinking to explain what they perceive as improbable.
But we you look at the totality of experience there will occasionally be people who experience unexpected outcomes.
Wow, I take a couple of days off and come back to a 20 page thread to answer whether one is religious or not. Without getting too much into this…Yes, but I keep my religion largely to myself. Growing up in lower Alabama, I’ve never understood the need for people to throw their religion in my face.
Wow. That was a tough read.
Brian is just looking for some playmates and wants everyone to go to the FSU boards.
This is normal for him. He does the same thing over there.
But seriously Brian, to claim to be a theologian and philosopher?
Tell us your interpretation of Madam Blavatsky, and Gurdieff.
Brian is just looking for some playmates and wants everyone to go to the FSU boards.
This is normal for him. He does the same thing over there.
But seriously Brian, to claim to be a theologian and philosopher?
Tell us your interpretation of Madam Blavatsky, and Gurdieff.
I wrote I was an "amateur" theologian and philosopher.
I've never heard of those people.
Did you stop posting on the FSU board? I haven't seen you around much.
(I am trying to get more posters there; right now it's 6 older right wing people.
)
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My preference does not affect reality. However, I am comfortable with oblivion.
I'm not sure an omnipotent god would be persuaded by somebody who "believes" in them just because of an irrational Pascal's Wager.
Jesus endorsed Pascal's Wager.
He said anyone who follows Him will get a reward in this life and the next.
Then Peter chimed in, “We left everything and followed you. What do we get out of it?” Jesus replied, “Yes, you have followed me. In the re-creation of the world, when the Son of Man will rule gloriously, you who have followed me will also rule, starting with the twelve tribes of Israel. And not only you, but anyone who sacrifices home, family, fields—whatever—because of me will get it all back a hundred times over, not to mention the considerable bonus of eternal life."
Matthew 19:27-29 Then Peter chimed in, “We left everything and followed you. What do we get out of it?” Jesus replied, “Yes, you have followed me. In the re-creation of the world, when the Son of Man will rule gloriou Then answered Peter and said unt
Then Peter chimed in, “We left everything and followed you. What do we get out of it?” Jesus replied, “Yes, you have followed me. In the re-creation of the world, when the Son of Man will rule gloriou Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what...
www.bible.com
That was when OJ killed Nicole and Ron and we still can't prove it
I may have missed it but I'm pretty sure they didn't say that and I'd be surprised that they wouldn't say that if it's true. Still it could be true.
Assuming it's true, do they remain atheists if they conclude there was a miracle? That's hard for me to process. Then again, I've never been in their shoes.
Speaking as an atheist, I have given some thought to the obvious question "what would it take to change your mind?" If I encountered a situation that I actually believed was a divine miracle, I imagine that would make me rethink my position.
Jesus endorsed Pascal's Wager.
He said anyone who follows Him will get a reward in this life and the next.
Then Peter chimed in, “We left everything and followed you. What do we get out of it?” Jesus replied, “Yes, you have followed me. In the re-creation of the world, when the Son of Man will rule gloriously, you who have followed me will also rule, starting with the twelve tribes of Israel. And not only you, but anyone who sacrifices home, family, fields—whatever—because of me will get it all back a hundred times over, not to mention the considerable bonus of eternal life."
Matthew 19:27-29 Then Peter chimed in, “We left everything and followed you. What do we get out of it?” Jesus replied, “Yes, you have followed me. In the re-creation of the world, when the Son of Man will rule gloriou Then answered Peter and said unt
Then Peter chimed in, “We left everything and followed you. What do we get out of it?” Jesus replied, “Yes, you have followed me. In the re-creation of the world, when the Son of Man will rule gloriou Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what...www.bible.com
Jesus, as described in the gospels, was not a rational guy.
"Alleged" facts. Some of which are plausible. Others, not so much.
The plausible ones, even the proven ones, do not prove the implausible ones. No matter how many times you prove that Bethlehem and Jerusalem existed and that the Romans taxed their inhabitants, and that there was one or more itinerant preachers who many have been named Jesus and may have been crucified, and so on, those things don't prove resurrection, miracles or the existence of demons.
They also say in the interview any doctor in the world is free to come debunk their findings.
Dr Michael Moran evaluates Lourdes miracles reports
Belfast doctor invited to evaluate reported miracles at Lourdes
www.google.com
There's tons of ways to investigate those.
If you believe or disbelieve, that's on you.
Yes, they did say that. But I still don't recall anything about atheists being on their team.
I wonder if they would allow folks like Dawkins a shot?
Similar story/explanation to what I've read in the Urantia Book, my latest religious "reading for fun" tome. It's quite the book (over 2,000 pages) and fairly contemporary (published circa 1955) when compared to other books of faith.
The first 2 sections are a bit of a slog and frankly too damn dense, foreign, complex and intricate to absorb and understand through just a casual reading. The 3rd section of the book (The History of Urantia (Earth)) is a bit more accessible. The 4th section of the book (The Life and Teachings of Jesus) is the largest section at nearly 800 pages and easily the the best written and accessible portion of the book.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book
Was Jesus a real historical figure? I don't actually know, but I do consider the stories of the life and teachings of Jesus as perhaps the best role model available to humankind. The world would be a much better place if all of us endeavored to live similarly. That's not a bad thing.
By definition, I'm likely classified as agnostic, but I prefer to think of myself more as a "possibilist". I was pretty deeply involved in organized religion throughout my childhood and early adulthood, Presbyterian, then Catholicism, Lutheranism & Universal Unitarianism, but no longer. I also have read up on NDEs since I was in high school and I find them fascinating, but I realize they do not stand up as strong evidence of an afterlife or proof of a heaven or God.
In summary to OP, not religious but definitely openminded enough to consider the supernatural concepts within religions as possible and still stoking the inner fire of my own spirituality.
My bro in law and sister in law are MDs, and my wife is an RN; all are members of the SMOM, which regularly takes malades to Lourdes. Bro and sister in law participate on the local (first step of MANY) skeptic committee that evaluates claims of potentially miraculous cures at Lourdes. Two things to note.They also say in the interview any doctor in the world is free to come debunk their findings.
Dr Michael Moran evaluates Lourdes miracles reports
Belfast doctor invited to evaluate reported miracles at Lourdeswww.google.com
First, "miracle" is an unfortunately loaded term. The way the process works, the better way to think of it is "currently scientifically unexplainable". While some make the causal inferential jump to believe "and therefore the product of divine intervention", that's not really what is being determined. Indeed, how could it? But, such "miracles" are nice ways for us to contemplate the hopeful possibility of divine intervention on occasion.
Second, the medical scrutiny they put into these things is indeed the real deal, and not the Fox Mulder "I want to believe" version. Internal and external specialists have their eyes on things, and there is both extensive retrospective medical record review, current diagnostic evaluations, and longitudinal follow up. As we all know, sometimes things are just the placebo effect. But not typically for the serious diseases that many afflicted malades suffer from.
So again, these are not conclusions of divine intervention, but they do provide a basis to ponder that concept, which can actually be a comforting thing.
When baby jesus lies, Brian doesn't cry
What do you think the purpose of life is? Do all good things come from God and Baby Jesus?
If you can't tell, I'm setting you up
What do you think the purpose of life is? Do all good things come from God and Baby Jesus?
If you can't tell, I'm setting you up
The only purpose to life I can think of is to attain the Beatific Vision through sanctification after death.
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