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Barr interview

Whether they are, or aren't, the question is still "why were they not released immediately?", and why did Barr misrepresent the report and then wait a full month-and-a-half to release them?

Mueller expressed his concern that the info would be misrepresented, which it was.
What is your position as of now (it's about 8:30 a.m. Monday, CDT)?

Barr was very clear about why he didn't release the summaries immediately. It's in the part of the quote that Tar didn't want us to see.

Moreover, I disagree that Barr's four-page memo misrepresented Mueller's work in the areas that mattered. People wanted to know if Trump or any of his people were found to have colluded with the Russians, and if Trump were going to be charged with obstruction of justice. The answer to both questions is "no," which is what Barr's memo said. He even went a step further by flat-out saying that Mueller had NOT exonerated Trump on the obstruction charge.

Nothing you and others have cited from the report cast doubt on the Barr memo, let alone refute any of it.
 
If I had to bet the farm right this minute, I would bet MplsHawk is right, Joe is wrong, and they have been released.

So?
Barr did his work, letting a colossal misrepresentation of the report stand for over a month, while Mueller expressed his concerns in a letter as to why those were not released immediately.

It was over a month AFTER his letter the report was finally released - and the summaries were not released separately to provide context and emphasis.
 
What is your position as of now (it's about 8:30 a.m. Monday, CDT)?

Barr was very clear about why he didn't release the summaries immediately.

No. He is not.

And Mueller wasn't satisfied with his logic, which is why he put it to paper - something every former FBI agent and director has stated was an "extraordinary step".
 
So?
Barr did his work, letting a colossal misrepresentation of the report stand for over a month, while Mueller expressed his concerns in a letter as to why those were not released immediately.

It was over a month AFTER his letter the report was finally released - and the summaries were not released separately to provide context and emphasis.
Just for giggles, in what way do you think Barr's memo misrepresented the Mueller report?
 
No. He is not.

And Mueller wasn't satisfied with his logic, which is why he put it to paper - something every former FBI agent and director has stated was an "extraordinary step".
What is unclear to you about this explanation?:

But in my view, I was not interested in putting out summaries or trying to summarize, because I think any summary regardless of who prepares it not only runs the risk of, you know, being under-inclusive or over-inclusive but also, you know, would trigger a lot of discussion and analysis that really should await everything coming out at once.
 
Just for giggles, in what way do you think Barr's memo misrepresented the Mueller report?

You should ask Mueller. He was the one who
A: wrote the report
B: then wrote a followup letter concerned that Barr's "memo" didn't capture the key points.
 
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What is unclear to you about this explanation?:

But in my view, I was not interested in putting out summaries or trying to summarize, because I think any summary regardless of who prepares it not only runs the risk of, you know, being under-inclusive or over-inclusive but also, you know, would trigger a lot of discussion and analysis that really should await everything coming out at once.

...that's what Barr did.

That's why Mueller called him out on it.
 
And yet Mueller said he was unhappy with how the media was using the summary and stated that the summary was accurate

Weird
 
You should ask Mueller. He was the one who
A: wrote the report
B: then wrote a followup letter concerned that Barr's "memo" didn't capture the key points.
Mueller isn't on this board, at least under his real name. And I don't think his letter said Barr didn't include specific key points. I think he was saying it didn't accurately portray the mood of the Mueller people.
 
And yet Mueller said he was unhappy with how the media was using the summary and stated that the summary was accurate

Weird
We aren't supposed to mention that Mueller told Barr the memo was accurate, because we only have Barr's word for that, and Barr (tells us things we dont want to hear) is a liar.
 
I think he was saying it didn't accurately portray the mood of the Mueller people.

No. That's not what his letter said. And it warned that Barr's summary would LEAD TO the media misrepresenting the report, which it did.
 
And yet Mueller said he was unhappy with how the media was using the summary and stated that the summary was accurate

Weird
Bullshit. Complete and total. Quote the line from his letter where he mentions the media. Maybe you can find it here:

“The summary letter the Department sent to Congress and released to the public late in the afternoon of March 24 did not fully capture the context, nature, and substance of this office’s work and conclusions. We communicated that concern to the Department on the morning of March 25. There is now public confusion about critical aspects of the results of our investigation. This threatens to undermine a central purpose for which the Department appointed the Special Counsel: to assure full public confidence in the outcome of the investigations.”

If you can parse that to somehow give the impression that it's NOT the summary that's the problem...well, you can't. Mueller communicated his concerns about the summary the day after it went out. The letter was sent as a follow-up. Mueller is flatly accusing Barr of, at the very least, inadvertently undermining public trust in his work. And if you think that what Barr did was inadvertent...yeah...sure.
 
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“The summary letter the Department sent to Congress and released to the public late in the afternoon of March 24 did not fully capture the context, nature, and substance of this office’s work and conclusions. We communicated that concern to the Department on the morning of March 25. There is now public confusion about critical aspects of the results of our investigation. This threatens to undermine a central purpose for which the Department appointed the Special Counsel: to assure full public confidence in the outcome of the investigations.”

Barr's memo cherry-picked info to deceive the public.

Lone cannot accept this simple fact. And it's the ENTIRE reason Barr did it: a lie makes it around the world twice before the truth can even get its pants on. Now, give that lie a month-and-a-half head start.....
 
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“The summary letter the Department sent to Congress and released to the public late in the afternoon of March 24 did not fully capture the context, nature, and substance of this office’s work and conclusions. We communicated that concern to the Department on the morning of March 25. There is now public confusion about critical aspects of the results of our investigation. This threatens to undermine a central purpose for which the Department appointed the Special Counsel: to assure full public confidence in the outcome of the investigations.”

Barr's memo cherry-picked info to deceive the public.

Lone cannot accept this simple fact. And it's the ENTIRE reason Barr did it: a lie makes it around the world twice before the truth can even get its pants on. Now, give that lie a month-and-a-half head start.....
What is the lie that made it around the world twice? What is the truth that is pantless?

And what about the lies (your word) you promulgated for two years before the report was released and the truth -- no charges for collusion or obstruction -- was clothed?
 
We aren't supposed to mention that Mueller told Barr the memo was accurate, because we only have Barr's word for that, and Barr (tells us things we dont want to hear) is a liar.
LOL...in the letter Mueller tells Barr the summary wasn't accurate. How else do you read this:

“The summary letter the Department sent to Congress and released to the public late in the afternoon of March 24 did not fully capture the context, nature, and substance of this office’s work and conclusions."
 
I am now not certain there is a set of Mueller summaries outside of what is in the Mueller Report itself. I've read there are and that the only summaries are in the report.. Regardless, while Mueller never found collusion that rose to the level of conspiracy, there was collusion, and anyone who has read the report and understands English, would realize there was. I didn't see in the report where trump directly was involved, but for a person who everyone around him always says that he knows what goes on in his life, it's pretty difficult to say he wasn't involved. Regarding obstruction of justice, he has done that multiple times and in plain sight, and Mueller reported those facts in the report. trump says he cooperated and I believe Barr also reported that, but he has not. He wouldn't sit for an interview with Mueller. He answered questions regarding collusion with more than 35 times with I don't recall or cannot remember, etc.(and this is the guy who has said he has the best mind and best memory) trump refused to answer any question regarding obstruction. And of course, trump and his administration have denied dozens of requests for information since the report has come out.

One last thing regarding Mueller testifying before congress is that as long as Mueller is still under the DOJ, he will not be able to say much of anything more than he already has. He was supposed to be done there the middle of May, and I wonder if Barr will keep him employed until after the election in 2020. If Mueller is unemployed there, then he probably has a lot to say, but whether even then he will, is another question.
 
LOL...in the letter Mueller tells Barr the summary wasn't accurate. How else do you read this:

“The summary letter the Department sent to Congress and released to the public late in the afternoon of March 24 did not fully capture the context, nature, and substance of this office’s work and conclusions."
I read it that Mueller is saying the letter didn't fully capture the context, nature and substance of the office's work and conclusions.

I don't read it that Mueller is saying anything Barr wrote was wrong.
 
Whether they are, or aren't, the question is still "why were they not released immediately?", and why did Barr misrepresent the report and then wait a full month-and-a-half to release them?

Mueller expressed his concern that the info would be misrepresented, which it was.

Maybe because it was Barr's decision to make and not Mueller's? Maybe Barr thought that the Mueller team had gone out of their way at times to make political theater (like the pre-dawn raids with FBI agents in full tactical gear--like an episode of The Black List with FBI agents battling dangerous terrorists--and with CNN invited), and didn't intend to defer his duties to the SC and let the SC dictate that their summaries be released separately from the full report to control a narrative aside from the full report? Bottom line is, it is Barr's decision to make, not the SC's or his team's. I know you don't like that.
 
I read it that Mueller is saying the letter didn't fully capture the context, nature and substance of the office's work and conclusions.

I don't read it that Mueller is saying anything Barr wrote was wrong.
Misleading then? Do you really not think there's any problem with that? I understand that individuals tend to support their own side's spin, but do you honestly believe that Mueller was attempting to release liberal/anti-trump spin and therefore it was fine for Barr to block that and release a version that painted Trump in a more positive light than what Mueller's summary would have? Do you view this as typical and harmless political posturing?

I admit this might be my blind libness talking, but I've never bought the assertion that Mueller was a biased angry Democrat. I think he's as honest and principled as they come. Can you say the same for Barr? Do you genuinely believe he has acted completely neutral, or is it possible that he is acting in a way that he hopes will specifically please Trump? If so, do you see a problem with that?
 
Maybe because it was Barr's decision to make and not Mueller's? Maybe Barr thought that the Mueller team had gone out of their way at times to make political theater (like the pre-dawn raids with FBI agents in full tactical gear--like an episode of The Black List with FBI agents battling dangerous terrorists--and with CNN invited), and didn't intend to defer his duties to the SC and let the SC dictate that their summaries be released separately from the full report to control a narrative aside from the full report? Bottom line is, it is Barr's decision to make, not the SC's or his team's. I know you don't like that.

Could you provide proof that CNN was invited to the pre-dawn raid? Political theater, really? You don't think that pre-dawn raids by the FBI with weapons are a normal way of doing them? Barr said his wasn't a summary, right, just his spin. Barr is a disgrace to our democracy, just like his personal boss, that is, as he sees it at least.
 
I read it that Mueller is saying the letter didn't fully capture the context, nature and substance of the office's work and conclusions.

I don't read it that Mueller is saying anything Barr wrote was wrong.

What you wrote in your first paragraph does show that Mueller said Barr was wrong. Why do you think Mueller wrote the letter? To compliment Barr on his analysis?
 
Misleading then? Do you really not think there's any problem with that? I understand that individuals tend to support their own side's spin, but do you honestly believe that Mueller was attempting to release liberal/anti-trump spin and therefore it was fine for Barr to block that and release a version that painted Trump in a more positive light than what Mueller's summary would have? Do you view this as typical and harmless political posturing?

I admit this might be my blind libness talking, but I've never bought the assertion that Mueller was a biased angry Democrat. I think he's as honest and principled as they come. Can you say the same for Barr? Do you genuinely believe he has acted completely neutral, or is it possible that he is acting in a way that he hopes will specifically please Trump? If so, do you see a problem with that?
Lotsa questions there, and neither of us knows the answer to any of them. I will try to give my impressions, and I realize they aren't objective, either. I'm not pro-Trump in the sense that I want him to get away with anything, but I'm pro-Trump in the sense that I think he should be treated fairly.

I think it is well established that members of Mueller's team were vociferously anti-Trump, especially one of the key people, Andrew Weisman. I think those people wanted Mueller to file obstruction charges. I think those people thought that although they weren't able to prove it, somebody on Trump's team was working consciously with Russians in some way. I think those people were unhappy about Mueller's decisions in those respects and wanted to be sure their feelings were known. I think that was the impetus for the letter.

In other words, I think those people went apeshit when Barr released his memo because they wanted him to say that the actual verdict of the Mueller probe was, to borrow a phrase from the Brits, "guilty but not proven."

I do not think Barr is "acting in a way that will specifically please Trump." There's no reason for him to do that. He's not a guy with career or political aspirations. I think he strongly suspects that Trump and his gang have not been treated fairly and professionally by elements of the DOJ and FBI and he wants to clear that up. I think his primary loyalty and concern is with the department he leads, not this particular president.

As far as whether his memo was misleading, in my view it was not. As I've said before, what I wanted to know -- the bottom line, as it were -- about the Mueller report was whether anybody was going to be charged with obstruction of justice or with conspiring with the Russkis to affect the election. I was on record many times here as saying I expected there to be evidence of both those things. Barr's memo said Mueller did not find collusion and did not charge obstruction but also did not exonerate Trump, so he (Barr & Rosenstein) decided not to file charges.

In other words, on the points that mattered to me -- and, I would bet, to a large majority of Americans -- Barr's memo accurately summed up the situation. What you guys are really arguing is that Mueller made the wrong decisions based on the evidence.

I also think some critics are not grasping Barr's point (or not grasping the same point I think he's making; I could be wrong). When I heard Barr talking about why Trump might have been justified in wanting Mueller replaced, I thought he (Barr) was making the case Trump could have made if he had been charged with obstruction. Barr was pretty clear in saying he and Rosenstein did not consider the question of whether a president could be charged when determining charges weren't appropriate. He (Barr) was explaining why it would be difficult to make the charges stick.
 
What you wrote in your first paragraph does show that Mueller said Barr was wrong. Why do you think Mueller wrote the letter? To compliment Barr on his analysis?
No, it doesn't say Barr got the conclusion of the report wrong. I think Mueller signed the letter -- I agree with those who assume it was staff-written -- because he thought Barr's memo had the shortcomings mentioned in the letter.

It's like criticizing a birth announcement for saying 'It's a boy!" instead of saying "After great phyical pain and mental anguish, the woman produced a male child, which was a disappointment to many relatives because they had wanted a female."

The announcement doesn't portray all the nuances of the event, but it doesn't get anything wrong, either.
 
What is the lie that made it around the world twice? What is the truth that is pantless?

And what about the lies (your word) you promulgated for two years before the report was released and the truth -- no charges for collusion or obstruction -- was clothed?
Barr made the determination not to charge on obstruction...NOT Mueller. The only conclusion you can reasonably draw from Mueller's report is he felt there was sufficient evidence to charge but, per OLC guidelines, he concluded that saying the president should be indicted isn't materially different from actually issuing an indictment. Do you disagree?

Mueller clearly says his choice is to either not charge or make no determination. On conspiracy, he says there is evidence but it likely wouldn't be possible to get a conviction so no charges. He did NOT say that for obstruction. He laid out multiple areas where all the elements for obstruction clearly existed but then deferred to the folks who can actually do something about a sitting president since he can't. Quite literally HUNDREDS of former federal prosecutors have stated publicly that there is enough in the summary ALONE to warrant an indictment for anyone not named POTUS .Now that's the truth that you keep denying.
 
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Barr made the determination not to charge on obstruction...NOT Mueller. The only conclusion you can reasonably draw from Mueller's report is he felt there was sufficient evidence to charge but, per OLC guidelines, he concluded that saying the president should be indicted isn't materially different from actually issuing an indictment. Do you disagree?

Mueller clearly says his choice is to either not charge or make no determination. On conspiracy, he says there is evidence but it likely wouldn't be possible to get a conviction so no charges. He did NOT say that for obstruction. He laid out multiple areas where all the elements for obstruction clearly existed but then deferred to the folks who can actually do something about a sitting president since he can't. Quite literally HUNDREDS of former federal prosecutors have stated publicly that there is enough in the summary ALONE to warrant an indictment for anyone not named POTUS .Now that's the truth that you keep denying.
I'm not denying any truth.

When Barr said Mueller did not exonerate Trump on the claims of obstruction, there was no other way to interpret it except that Mueller thought there was a strong case for obstruction. Which is the truth. Period. The fact Barr chose to include that information in his memo blows out of the water the claim that he was trying to mislead anyone about it. Moreover, many, if not all, of the actions/statements by Trump were public knowledge before the report was issued, right?

Admit it: You aren't angry with Barr for writing a misleading memo. You're angry with Barr for not charging Trump with obstruction. Which is an entirely reasonable position for you to take, as long as you're honest about it.
 
What you guys are really arguing is that Mueller made the wrong decisions based on the evidence.
Not true at all for me, but I can only speak for myself. In my opinion, your assertion that Mueller wrote a letter based on the outrage of others, paints Mueller as a weak mouthpiece for a bunch of angry Democrats. I vehemently disagree with that characterization, but am also fine with agreeing to disagree.

I am not incredulous that you feel the way you do, even though I think you are wrong. Similarly, I don't think my position is difficult to understand, even if you strongly disagree. My position is that Mueller is a man of rock solid conviction and morals that absolutely did not act politically or to appease angry Democrats when he penned his letter to Barr. I believe he was the appropriate person to summarize the findings from his own work, so when he voiced concern over Barr's summary, I believe that concern should be taken seriously as coming from an individual with integrity and being the most informed person on earth with respect to the content in question.

I expect no charges, impeachment, or penalties for Trump. Politically, I think the use of Barr's position to spin Mueller's conclusions in a way that portrayed them as more positive for Trump than Mueller himself intended lacked the integrity I would expect from any individual in his position. I'm not irate, as someone who genuinely trusts Mueller's impartiality I just found it disappointing.

I think the disconnect lies in the disparity we've identified with respect to Mueller's impartiality. I simply don't view his as a biased actor in all this, but that might be my lib glasses.
 
I read it that Mueller is saying the letter didn't fully capture the context, nature and substance of the office's work and conclusions.

I don't read it that Mueller is saying anything Barr wrote was wrong.
Would you like to put that goalpost back where you originally planted it?

We aren't supposed to mention that Mueller told Barr the memo was accurate, because we only have Barr's word for that, and Barr (tells us things we dont want to hear) is a liar.
Again, Mueller explicitly told Barr that his characterization in the summary wasn't ACCURATE.

“The summary letter the Department sent to Congress and released to the public late in the afternoon of March 24 did not fully capture the context, nature, and substance of this office’s work and conclusions."

So inaccurate that it was creating "public confusion" and threatened to "undermine a central purpose for which the Department appointed the Special Counsel: to assure full public confidence in the outcome of the investigations.”
 
I'm not denying any truth.

When Barr said Mueller did not exonerate Trump on the claims of obstruction, there was no other way to interpret it except that Mueller thought there was a strong case for obstruction.

And yet, here we are, with Fox News and others claiming there's "no case for obstruction"....
 
No, it doesn't say Barr got the conclusion of the report wrong. I think Mueller signed the letter -- I agree with those who assume it was staff-written -- because he thought Barr's memo had the shortcomings mentioned in the letter.

It's like criticizing a birth announcement for saying 'It's a boy!" instead of saying "After great phyical pain and mental anguish, the woman produced a male child, which was a disappointment to many relatives because they had wanted a female."

The announcement doesn't portray all the nuances of the event, but it doesn't get anything wrong, either.

You're wrong and you know it. Mueller would not have written the letter if he agreed with Barr. Maybe if Barr had just said "It's a Boy" that would be one thing, but Barr said, "Easy birth where mother did nothing and doctors found nothing wrong", when in fact it was a difficult birth and the child is in ICU.

At least now you're admitting to being all in for Trump no matter what.
 
I wish Mueller would have been more forceful in his findings on obstruction regarding the remedies. I wonder if he now wishes the same, and that is one big reason why I would like to hear him testify in an open forum with congress.
 
It's like criticizing a birth announcement for saying 'It's a boy!" instead of saying "After great phyical pain and mental anguish, the woman produced a male child, which was a disappointment to many relatives because they had wanted a female."

No, it's like criticizing a birth announcement that "It's a Boy!!!", when it was really a hermaphrodite, with ambiguous male/female organs, so the doctor just randomly decided for the parents to make the kid a boy with a neonatal surgical operation.

Then 15 years later, we figure out the kid actually identifies as a girl and has loads of psychological problems because the wrong assumption was made.
 
Could you provide proof that CNN was invited to the pre-dawn raid? Political theater, really? You don't think that pre-dawn raids by the FBI with weapons are a normal way of doing them? Barr said his wasn't a summary, right, just his spin. Barr is a disgrace to our democracy, just like his personal boss, that is, as he sees it at least.

I can't provide proof that CNN was actually invited, because I use the word invited in a sarcastic sense. I don't believe that CNN received a formal invitation. CNN was tipped off to be there, evidenced by the fact that they were the only media that showed up shortly before the raid. And no, I don't think pre-dawn raids with assault teams and boats are the normal way that the FBI arrests an elderly non-violent suspected criminal who knows that they are going to be taken into custody in the near future based upon a long legal process that has been playing out for months.
 
No one is arguing this point.

They're stating that Barr's actions were inappropriate.

Good. It seemed like you were. If you agree that it is within Barr's authority to decide how to inform Congress and the public, especially initially before the full Report had been redacted, how is it inappropriate for Barr to have proceeded in the manner he thought best? You not liking it doesn't make it inappropriate.
 
I'm not denying any truth.

When Barr said Mueller did not exonerate Trump on the claims of obstruction, there was no other way to interpret it except that Mueller thought there was a strong case for obstruction. Which is the truth. Period. The fact Barr chose to include that information in his memo blows out of the water the claim that he was trying to mislead anyone about it. Moreover, many, if not all, of the actions/statements by Trump were public knowledge before the report was issued, right?

Admit it: You aren't angry with Barr for writing a misleading memo. You're angry with Barr for not charging Trump with obstruction. Which is an entirely reasonable position for you to take, as long as you're honest about it.
I never expected him to charge Trump. The OLC guidelines don't allow for it and, as I said, Mueller takes the perfectly sensible view that if indicting a sitting POTUS would adversely affect his or her ability to do their job then stating they should be indicted carries the same weight. I'll ask again - do you disagree with Mueller on this point and could you explain your reasoning, if you don't mind?

I expected Barr to do exactly what the picked-for-a-purpose AG did. He fulfilled my expectations and then some. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

So, here you go again:

Mueller clearly says his choice is to either not charge or make no determination. On conspiracy, he says there is evidence but it likely wouldn't be possible to get a conviction so no charges. He did NOT say that for obstruction. He laid out multiple areas where all the elements for obstruction clearly existed but then deferred to the folks who can actually do something about a sitting president since he can't. Quite literally HUNDREDS of former federal prosecutors have stated publicly that there is enough in the summary ALONE to warrant an indictment for anyone not named POTUS. Now that's the truth that you keep denying.

You're still denying it.
 
I wish Mueller would have been more forceful in his findings on obstruction regarding the remedies. I wonder if he now wishes the same, and that is one big reason why I would like to hear him testify in an open forum with congress.

That would be great. The game he ran in some people about lying to the FBI could then be equally applied to him. Mueller won't want to testify all that much because he can go down by the same exact standards he used to indict people
 
Good. It seemed like you were. If you agree that it is within Barr's authority to decide how to inform Congress and the public, especially initially before the full Report had been redacted, how is it inappropriate for Barr to have proceeded in the manner he thought best? You not liking it doesn't make it inappropriate.

It is within Trump's "authority" to pardon American GIs convicted of war crimes.
Is that "OK" too?
Because lots of military folks are calling out the poor wisdom in that as well.

Just because it is within Barr's authority, does not make it acting in the best interests of the country, or respecting the Constitution.
 
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