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Best Discussion of the Electoral College

It’s a historical fact that she won something that neither candidate was aiming for. You can’t just assume that the popular vote winner when neither candidate was concerned about winning the popular vote would also win the popular vote when both candidates were trying to win it.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on campaigning. Countless thousands of campaign workers help support their candidate. Currently these resources are deployed for the specific purpose of winning the Electoral College vote. If the objective was to win the popular vote then all of that money and manpower would be deployed very differently. There’s simply no way to know what the outcome would have been.

I think it's incredibly silly to think that the Clinton campaign wasn't interested in winning a plurality of votes. The idea that any campaign doesn't care if they relate to the majority of Americans(all of which that they will govern) is about as stark of an example of a naked power grab as I've ever seen.
 
Doubtful,.. Eliminate the electoral college and I think it's more likely that candidates will tend to concentrate their campaigning inside the most populous areas of the country,.. Which would more than likely cause them to move left of center to satisfy that voting block.
So the compromise to me would be to eliminate gerrymandering - require all states to draw congressional districts via non-partisan commission. You win that district, you win that electoral vote. You win the popular vote for that state, you get the extra two from their senators.
Mitt was a vulture capitalist.

Some people liked that about him.

For me and others, it was a disqualifier.

That said, he wasn't too bad for a Republican.
Romney proved me wrong since 2016 - I questioned at the time whether he’d pushback against the extremists in the GOP.
Yes because nothing is cyclical at all in life and politics.
There’s no other period to compare to the situation republicans have found themselves in.
It’s a historical fact that the popular vote was a meaningless metric because no candidate was focusing their efforts on winning the popular vote.
You can call it meaningless if you want, but it’s also historical fact that only a very small percentage of presidential elections have seen the winner of the electoral college not also win the popular vote, so that’s not the word I would use personally. Especially with how party lines have been drawn today, republicans under Trump have a much harder path to 270 than democrats do - due to most of the most populous states being solid blue.

When more states were in play from one election to the next, while winning the popular vote wasn’t necessarily the goal, until recently it was very difficult to win without doing so.
 
Seriously, why doesn’t the UN adopt proportional representation?

Can you think of any reasons why they don’t do so?

The EU also has representative structures that reflect the sovereignty, and not the population, of their members. And yet there is no legacy of slavery to explain it. Can you think of reasons why they did that?

Or is it beyond your grasp entirely?



The arguments surely exist, I’m trying to discern if you’re aware of them, or can come up with any.
Well?
The UN is nothing more than a treaties-based organization intended to facilitate cooperation, and was founded upon the sovereignty of nations, who are its members, not individual citizens. It has nothing to do with the concept of representative democracies or even democracies at all. The EU isn't a country. It is simply a political and economic alliance of member countries intended to facilitate trade and wield greater clout on the international stage. And WTF does any of this have to do with slavery? Your arguments are spurious and devoid of merit as they relate to the Unites States system of government.
 
The UN is nothing more than a treaties-based organization intended to facilitate cooperation, and was founded upon the sovereignty of nations, who are its members, not individual citizens. It has nothing to do with the concept of representative democracies or even democracies at all. The EU isn't a country. It is simply a political and economic alliance of member countries intended to facilitate trade and wield greater clout on the international stage. And WTF does any of this have to do with slavery? Your arguments are spurious and devoid of merit as they relate to the Unites States system of government.

The United States is a constitutionally based organization intended to facilitate cooperation, and was founded on the sovereignty of its member states, not individual citizens.

That’s why membership was determined by each state, and not a popular vote of the whole.

So why would the US, UN, and EU adopt representative schemes that reflect the sovereignty of their members, and not the individual citizens? Can you think of a reason?
 
Seriously, why doesn’t the UN adopt proportional representation?

Can you think of any reasons why they don’t do so?

The EU also has representative structures that reflect the sovereignty, and not the population, of their members. And yet there is no legacy of slavery to explain it. Can you think of reasons why they did that?

Or is it beyond your grasp entirely?



The arguments surely exist, I’m trying to discern if you’re aware of them, or can come up with any.
Well?

The UN, in which any of four countries can veto the rest of the world, hardly seems to be an aspirational model for democracy.

The 50 individual states are represented in Congress. The small states yield disproportionate power to there via the Senate.

It seems fair that the President should be elected by the people, rather than give disproportional power in the Executive Branch, as well.
 
The UN, in which any of four countries can veto the rest of the world, hardly seems to be an aspirational model for democracy.
You’re ducking the question.

Are you genuinely incapable of conceiving why the US, EU, and UN don’t have representation schemes based solely of population?
 
So the compromise to me would be to eliminate gerrymandering - require all states to draw congressional districts via non-partisan commission. You win that district, you win that electoral vote. You win the popular vote for that state, you get the extra two from their senators.

Romney proved me wrong since 2016 - I questioned at the time whether he’d pushback against the extremists in the GOP.

There’s no other period to compare to the situation republicans have found themselves in.

You can call it meaningless if you want, but it’s also historical fact that only a very small percentage of presidential elections have seen the winner of the electoral college not also win the popular vote, so that’s not the word I would use personally. Especially with how party lines have been drawn today, republicans under Trump have a much harder path to 270 than democrats do - due to most of the most populous states being solid blue.

When more states were in play from one election to the next, while winning the popular vote wasn’t necessarily the goal, until recently it was very difficult to win without doing so.
Take a look at this graph through our history. Like I mentioned earlier, parties, policies, voters ebb and flow and right now is no different. The same goes for states and how their majority votes.

California for instance was 9 out of 10 GOP from the 50s on. From 92' on it has been DEM. Just because one state votes one way currently, doesn't mean that it is never going to change or is "off the board" for the other party.

Lets stop with the knee-jerk reactions please.

PartyVotes-Presidents.png
 
The United States is a constitutionally based organization intended to facilitate cooperation, and was founded on the sovereignty of its member states, not individual citizens.

That’s why membership was determined by each state, and not a popular vote of the whole.

So why would the US, UN, and EU adopt representative schemes that reflect the sovereignty of their members, and not the individual citizens? Can you think of a reason?
The states are not “sovereign”. They never were after the Constitution was ratified. The Constitution places restrictions on the power of the states subservient to the national govt and Marbury v Madison made them subservient to federal courts in questions concerning the Constitution. The Civil War settled the question of state “sovereignty” once and for all. A sovereign country can leave the UN. A sovereign country can leave the EU. Can a “sovereign” state leave the Unites States?
 
Take a look at this graph through our history. Like I mentioned earlier, parties, policies, voters ebb and flow and right now is no different. The same goes for states and how their majority votes.

California for instance was 9 out of 10 GOP from the 50s on. From 92' on it has been DEM. Just because one state votes one way currently, doesn't mean that it is never going to change or is "off the board" for the other party.

Lets stop with the knee-jerk reactions please.

PartyVotes-Presidents.png
Sure, but typically when we’ve seen major shifts like that, it’s often been due to major events.

California for example, flipped to a solid blue state when republicans rammed thru a very unpopular immigration law, and democrats have largely dominated the state since. The south was a democratic stronghold for decades until the civil rights movement. And so on.

So I agree that some of this is cyclical, but at the same time, due to population shifts, it’s ever more possible to have popular support but still lose the presidency.
 
And you are ducking the question as to why individual citizens in this country should have more voting power than others.
For the same reason I want my vote to outweigh China’s in the UN.

To offer enhanced protection for local sovereignty.

I’m trying to find out if this is a genuine blind spot you have, that you can’t comprehend why a smaller state would conditionally agree to any union with a larger state.

The states are not “sovereign”. They never were after the Constitution was ratified. The Constitution places restrictions on the power of the states subservient to the national govt and Marbury v Madison made them subservient to federal courts in questions concerning the Constitution. The Civil War settled the question of state “sovereignty” once and for all. A sovereign country can leave the UN. A sovereign country can leave the EU. Can a “sovereign” state leave the Unites States?

Of course.
I do not reject the premise of the Declaration of Independence.
The course of government is not eternally in the direction of consolidation.

This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.
-Abraham Lincoln, first inaugural address
 
Of course.
I do not reject the premise of the Declaration of Independence.
The course of government is not eternally in the direction of consolidation.

This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.
-Abraham Lincoln, first inaugural address
I have no idea what your point here might be other than to concede that the political structure of the US has nothing to do with the set-up of the UN or the EU.
 
Keep the EC

Combine the Dakota’s into one state.

Divide California into two.


Still 50 states.

Problem solved.

You’re welcome. 😁
 
If the Democrats hold the WH, the House and Senate over the next 4 years, will they attempt to pass a bill that would eliminate the EC and change it to overall popular vote?

Does anyone think they could actually get this passed? Would the majority of voters also agree that this is the change needed?

I don’t think that changing the vote to popular vote automatically means a win for the Democrats. It would most certainly change how and where candidates for POTUS spend their time and efforts. We already see the focus on battleground states. Focus would just shift a bit. Strategy would change significantly.
 
Does anyone think they could actually get this passed? Would the majority of voters also agree that this is the change needed?

I don’t think that changing the vote to popular vote automatically means a win for the Democrats. It would most certainly change how and where candidates for POTUS spend their time and efforts. We already see the focus on battleground states. Focus would just shift a bit. Strategy would change significantly.

No, it could not be changed by Congress. It can only be changed by the states, meaning rural states would have to voluntarily give up their disproportionate power. So it’s an impossibility.
 
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The Declaration is not a governing document. The Constitution is.

1. Has the Supreme Court ever cited the Declaration of Independence?

Did the people of the United States, whose government is based on the great principles of the revolution, proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence, confer upon the federal executive or judicial tribunals the power of making our nation accessories to such atrocious violations of human rights? Is there any principle of international law or law of comity which requires it? Are our Courts bound, and if not, are they at liberty, to give effect here to the slave trade laws of a foreign nation, to laws affecting strangers never domiciled there, when to give them such effect would be to violate the natural rights of men?
These questions are answered in the negative by all the most approved writers on the laws of nations.

United States v. The Amistad, (1841)​


2. Do you reject the premise of the Declaration of Independence?

Curious to see how many times you’ll duck question #2.
 
One of the points Wegman draws attention to is that the EC is the main reason why only 4-7 "battleground" states actually count. So it isn't just that California Rs and Texas Ds are effectively disenfranchised. That's true for the millions of minority-party voters in 44-47 states every election.

That might not be so bad if those battleground states were very representative of America but is that true?

Meanwhile, presidents of both parties send more money to those battleground states. Nice for them, but what about the rest of us?
Battleground states change. The largest media markets rarely do.

It's not hard if you think it out in the real world.
 
1. Has the Supreme Court ever cited the Declaration of Independence?

Did the people of the United States, whose government is based on the great principles of the revolution, proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence, confer upon the federal executive or judicial tribunals the power of making our nation accessories to such atrocious violations of human rights? Is there any principle of international law or law of comity which requires it? Are our Courts bound, and if not, are they at liberty, to give effect here to the slave trade laws of a foreign nation, to laws affecting strangers never domiciled there, when to give them such effect would be to violate the natural rights of men?
These questions are answered in the negative by all the most approved writers on the laws of nations.

United States v. The Amistad, (1841)​


2. Do you reject the premise of the Declaration of Independence?

Curious to see how many times you’ll duck question #2.
Some pretty disingenuous arguments you're making in this thread. Statement of foundational principles vs. actual governing law. The Court is not citing the Declaration as though any of its provisions is dispositive of the case; it's a rhetorical flourish. Next time you're party to a lawsuit, go ahead and try to convince the court to enforce any part of the Declaration.

There are plenty of cogent arguments in favor of the Electoral College. Read the Federalist Papers and regurgitate them here. But these inapposite references to the Declaration and the UN/EU are really not helping your case.
 
But these inapposite references to the Declaration and the UN/EU are really not helping your case.
What do you find inappropriate about the premise of the Declaration of Independence?

I introduce the EU’s non-proportional representation scheme to show the ignorant that slavery isn’t the root cause of sovereign jealously guarding their powers in a power sharing agreement.

The people who can’t fathom why there might be non-proportional representation can never articulate why the EU does it when they don’t have slavery as an excuse.
 
No, it could not be changed by Congress. It can only be changed by the states, meaning rural states would have to voluntarily give up their disproportionate power. So it’s an impossibility.
impossibility. Seems like a complete waste of time worrying, thinking about and discussing.
 
What do you find inappropriate about the premise of the Declaration of Independence?

I introduce the EU’s non-proportional representation scheme to show the ignorant that slavery isn’t the root cause of sovereign jealously guarding their powers in a power sharing agreement.

The people who can’t fathom why there might be non-proportional representation can never articulate why the EU does it when they don’t have slavery as an excuse.

The problem is you are not articulating a an argument in favor of some voters having more power than others.

The states are represented individually in Congress. Because each state has two Senators, small rural states have a disproportionate voice. So that should be the end of it.

The President ought to represent the entire country. To do that, he should be elected by the entire populace regardless of where they live. Your residency should not matter. Under our current arrangement people in small states control both the Executive and the Legislative branches, which means they also control the Judicial branch.

It is simply unfair.
 
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The electoral college is a relic of slavery. It needs to gp asap
That's dumb.

It's a relic of a republican form of democracy - one where each state chooses but where it's not completely controlled by one or two that may have a disproportional number of people. Get rid of electors, but the "value" of each state is fine.
 
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That's dumb.

It's a relic of a republican form of democracy - one where each state chooses but where it's not completely controlled by one or two that may have a disproportional number of people. Get rid of electors, but the "value" of each state is fine.
No, read the history behind it. You’re not totally wrong, but slavery definitely played a factor in how it was designed.
 
The problem is you are not articulating a an argument in favor of some voters having more power than others.

My problem is I'm trying to find out if you can articulate that argument.
Why did the UN and EU not defer to purely population proportional distributions of power?

Do you genuinely have no idea? Really just sitting there utterly clueless as to their reasoning?
I never took you for a dullard.

The states are represented individually in Congress. Because each state has two Senators, small rural states have a disproportionate voice. So that should be the end of it.

Why? If that isn't deemed sufficient safeguard, why shouldn't they have more?
The EU in some cases requires unanimous consent - how undemocratic! Why would they do that?

To do that, he should be elected by the entire populace regardless of where they live. Your residency should not matter. Under our current arrangement people in small states control both the Executive and the Legislative branches, which means they also control the Judicial branch.

It is simply unfair.
It's not sport, we're not trying to make a 'fair game', we're trying to create agreed upon associations, with stipulations to preserve the rights and powers of the members. Even the smallest members.
 
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No, read the history behind it. You’re not totally wrong, but slavery definitely played a factor in how it was designed.
The primary reason it was developed was as a compromise between those who wanted a popular vote vs those who wanted congress to select the executive.

The thing that I disagree with people on is when they try to suggest that this was some sort of principled ideal solution. They had to resolve the disagreement somehow and came up with a compromise.
 
Call it whatever you want. We absolutely are a representative democracy based on democratic principles. Anybody suggesting otherwise is simply being obtuse.

So not a true democracy then,.. I agree.
 
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So not a true democracy then,.. I agree.
We are a representative democracy, in that in theory we directly elect our representatives, who are authorized to govern.

We have one exception. The President is not elected democratically.
 
If the Republicans would come up with moderate candidates that refused to cater to the evangelical and MAGA right, I don't know if they would ever lose a presidential election. Trump is the worst candidate, by far, of my life and he has a solid chance to win. One slip up by Kamala - because Democrats for some reason aren't allowed to have any type of flaw, and Trump will win again.

The other thing is, the people who call Kamala or other democrats radical, can't really explain how their ideas, THEIR ACTUAL IDEAS, are radical. For example, The Green New Deal. If one actually reads it the vast majority is common sense, but Fox and other right wing talking heads have, once again, terrified most of the Republican base. Hell, there was a guy a few years ago who actually had Tucker Carlson agreeing with the principles of democratic socialism. Basically none of it is scary. Evangelicals trying to create policy for the rest of us is scary.
What is the actual democrat policy on the border? What is the democrat policy on trans sports? Actual POLICY for trans athletes, and how many people does it affect? This trans fear affects next to nobody when you compare it to the things you rightly mentioned in your first sentence. I believe the democrats aren't any more "radical" about the border than the Republicans. It's a chosen BS narrative that Ted Cruz decided to push 2 weeks into Biden's presidency. We both know "open borders" is a myth or outright lie.
if you can’t be honest about the open border under the Biden/Harris administration, I don’t know what to tell you. As far as Kamala’s radical ideas (which she would try to put into policy), here are a few: abolish ICE, taxing unrealized gains, free health care for illegal immigrants, price controls (which would be her way of trying to combat “price gouging” - what would be her definition of price gouging? She’s historically been against fracking, now she’s apparently flip flopping to garner votes. She’s been all over the board on crime…tough on weed, but liberal on other crimes.
 
My problem is I'm trying to find out if you can articulate that argument.
Why did the UN and EU not defer to purely population proportional distributions of power?

Do you genuinely have no idea? Really just sitting there utterly clueless as to their reasoning?
I never took you for a dullard.



Why? If that isn't deemed sufficient safeguard, why shouldn't they have more?
The EU in some cases requires unanimous consent - how undemocratic! Why would they do that?


It's not sport, we're not trying to make a 'fair game', we're trying to create agreed upon associations, with stipulations to preserve the rights and powers of the members. Even the smallest members.

Well, if “fair” is not part of the goal, then you aren’t really working in good faith. Which would explain your preposterous attempts at finding parallels which have zero relevance to the elections within a sovereign state.
 
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We are a representative democracy, in that in theory we directly elect our representatives, who are authorized to govern.

We have one exception. The President is not elected democratically.

Voters elect their representatives,.. States elect their president.
 
Well, if “fair” is not part of the goal, then you aren’t really working in good faith.

My goal is consent of the governed.
What's your goal? Subservience to mere majoritarianism?
Do you have a value higher than whatever 50% +1 says?

Which would explain your preposterous attempts at finding parallels which have zero relevance to the elections within a sovereign state.
Why would the EU have an undemocratic process like requiring unanimity?
Is that 'fair'?
 
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