You're really stuck on that 'give me a name or stop talking about Fran' angle huh.........
Bluder leads team to Final Four in her 23rd year as coach........
- Thread starter perryhawk
- Start date
Don't forget Bluder also has 3 B10 COTYs (2001, 2008, 2010) and a Naismith COTY in 2019. I'm assuming she was also recognized by someone as COTY while at Drake as well.
Fran was awarded the MAAC COTY in 2009. He is also on a short list of coaches who have taken at least 4 teams to the NCAA Tournament.
For the women in year 14 of Bluder they went 27-9, finished 4th in the B10 and lost to Nebraska in the BTT Finals.
They then got to host the NCAA Tournament as a 6 seed, but got destroyed by 3 seed Louisville in the 2nd Rd. That 33-win Louisville team then would fall to Maryland by 3 in the Elite 8.
Suffice to say, both coaches have done some good things.
And my post isn't necessarily meant to imply that Fran should be let go if he doesn't match Bluder's accomplishments in the next handful of years. Just depends, but, can Fran build on what he's done so far the way Bluder has? That's anyone's guess.
I'm frustrated with a lack of postseason success with the men's program. That is not ALL on Fran. It's partly Alford and Lickliter.. Even Davis, to an extent. That said, it's fair to point out that it took Bluder quite a while to get past the NCAA 2nd round as well.
Exactly.
And you can demonstrate it statistically. Teams with good offenses and poor defenses dont win consistently.
No, none of those guys were dominant in the lower divisions.
I'm thinking more along the lines of someone like Ben McCollum.
Seems that people won’t consider the continuity that the Iowa women have because the WNBA isn’t such a draw for leaving early. Iowa women had exact same team as last year when they lost in 2nd round but their core stuck together and that experience they have playing together took them a long way. On the flip side for the men, the draw to NBA if you’re going to be drafted is too great to pass up normally. We were a 2 seed like the women a couple years ago and flamed out in 2nd round. Now imagine if Wiesy and Garza came back for another season, I think it’s reasonable to think Iowa would have had a deeper run last year.
I understand Iowa isn’t the only team having players leave early for the draft but when you have been a developmental team for so long and then you start to have some players leave early for NBA, there is an adjustment period and recruiting doesn’t always immediately improve though I think in time it will with them sending more players to the league recently.
Maybe it’s just Frans stupid sideline hijinks, but I’m more than ready to move on. Bludder is a class act.
I don’t know if it’s entirely Frans fault, but he hasn’t really been able to land any game changing guards, he’s been close a few times but just can’t close the deal. It doesn’t take a genius to realize what the recipe for success is in the tournament, but our coach seems too stubborn to change his ways. Hopefully he proves all of us doubters wrong and actually does change, but I’m not going to hold my breath.
I’d take Dusty May in a heartbeat. Tang took KSU to the elite 8 in his first year. How about Tobin Anderson, Henderson from Princeton or Dutcher at SDSU, would you take any of those guys OP?
I don’t know if it’s entirely Frans fault, but he hasn’t really been able to land any game changing guards, he’s been close a few times but just can’t close the deal. It doesn’t take a genius to realize what the recipe for success is in the tournament, but our coach seems too stubborn to change his ways. Hopefully he proves all of us doubters wrong and actually does change, but I’m not going to hold my breath.
I’d take Dusty May in a heartbeat. Tang took KSU to the elite 8 in his first year. How about Tobin Anderson, Henderson from Princeton or Dutcher at SDSU, would you take any of those guys OP?
And again it should always be noted that the recruiting pool for the women is even smaller in terms of elite players than the men, which is a major reason why it was always the same teams at the top every year for a solid decade or two.
LIke a Garza or the Murray Brothers?
4-nba level players on Garza's last year at Iowa but the two Murrays were stuck behind Coach's sons, but hey he wasn't biased.
Bluder has been at Iowa for 15 years. I'll be thrilled if Fran gets some hardware in the next couple years.
Yep. That comment was a bit tongue in cheek. Definitely feel like Iowa should've been able to manage more than a win over Grand Canyon with that group. Not to mention JBo, Wieskamp, etc. in addition to Garza and the Murrays.
Loser talk. Many programs take a risk when they can see their program has hit the ceiling. Sometimes it fails and you have to try again. That’s the way it goes. Be afraid of being worse than mediocre is lazy and pathetic. We have too many resources to settle for the product we are consistently getting. The women have shown us, if you put a great product, the fans will invest. Give us Fran, fans grow apathetic and spend their time and money elsewhere.
Garza and the Murrays were great, but guards make tournament runs and win championships. Fran’s inability to land/develop high level guards along with deficient defensive play is why Iowa hasn't had any tourney success.
OOOOh yet another mental pretzel argument to create some wisp of hope for Fran. Sorry dude but I've given up.
This is just another iteration of what we keep seeing - 'Hey, even MSU loses games to lower ranked teams!' where posters try to make excuses for Fran's mediocrity and give us some kind of hope for the future.
I think we've seen the best Fran can do and it's a 1st round exit in the tourney.
This is about the thinnest argument I've seen you make on this board, honestly. Usually I'm in agreement, not this time sorry.
Hey guys, if you want change, stop buying tickets and going to games. Simple as that.
We’ve seen Fran do better than that, so I don’t get the whole “best Fran can do”.
You’ve got to love that Logic math.
So Lisa got better as her career went along, after her 13th year. It’s almost like coaches can actually improve, even after 13 years!
I thought the Elite 8 was the ceiling for this team. Glad they proved me wrong.
this is kinda cool. IIRC, Lisa drove the bus when she was the St Ambrose head coach. Keep in mind, too, that the VERY FIRST SEASON for Iowa women's basketball was not until 1981-1982.
You certainly don’t have to agree…. But there’s a couple of things you mentioned that just don’t hold up. The first is the statement that labels Fran as mediocre….that’s just not factual or even close to it. He’s not elite….but he’s well above mediocre. The second is the “pretzel” argument or reasoning. The truth is that it’s just basic logic. Nothing more and nothing less. You feel confident/convinced that Fran has peaked. I feel confident that he’s capable of getting us to the Sweet 16 and maybe more with a few breaks.
One coach is likeable and represents Iowa in a first- class way.
The other, not so much.
What leads you to believe that he can get Iowa to the Sweet Sixteen?
I have one whole end of the court and an entire career that says he can't.
With the talent he's had at his disposal, it really should have already happened.
Average coach at best. The defensive end of the court is keeping him from being above average. Keep in mind that at least ten of the wins every year are gimmies.
Really good points - my amateur observation in support is how the two tournaments have in general been officiated - the women’s games have mostly been called to allow that open style (with possible exception of SC-bias) - the men’s games have allowed almost brutal physical D in most cases - personally, I love free-flowing high-scoring run-and-gun, and obviously so does Fran…but then neither of us have ever gotten past the second round 😜
Definitely some merit here. People fail to understand that many of the "knitting crowd" at Carver is also a lot of the $$$ support. Younger folks may not mind some of Fran's outbursts, but real $$$ can live without the combo of outbursts AND lack of post-season success.
In Fran's defense, he hasn't trumpeted the BTT title last year the way Alford did. As in, ad nauseum. That, alone, made Alford nearly intolerable.
But until Fran can make his teams mear-invincible at home, and a team other teams are wary of in the postseason, his act gets more tired each year. When you add in CMac and PMac getting more minutes than the Murray's in a given season...although CMac did become a decent player in his late 20s...
Be honest did you defend Lick the entire time he was here? Aren't you just an eternal optimist? You being an eternal optimist doesn't mean you're being logical. When's the last time you posted something negative about Fran or any other Iowa player. There's nothing wrong with that posting style but I have a problem when you think that posting style makes your arguments logical in your mind. This whole thread is just as dumb as the other one that had the opposite take. I'm sorry comparing the men's game to the women's game isn't a logical argument by any means.
First off, thank you for calling me an eternal optimist......I've been called much worse.
Second, I have posted criticisms of Fran very recently. The defensive performance (after the Woodbury years) is just not acceptable....Period. I want to see him do something about it.....and he frustratingly hasn't accomplished an improvement in that performance to this point.
I did defended Lick for two years.....I thought that the National Coach of the year just needed to get time to turn things around and get his own people in place. In year 3 with our best player leaving for the 3rd year in a row and our win total still terrible...I stopped. And I think Barta did the right thing by firing the guy he hired.
Here's the logic that I guess I don't understand how others don't see it: People make arguments that Fran sucks or that he is mediocre when he is accomplishing things like the number of tournament appearances in a row that match or exceed the best in program history. They call him mediocre when his teams have finished in the top half of the B10 for something like 6 years in a row and only two other teams (something along those lines) have done the same thing during that time period.....etc...etc. "He can't get out of the first round of the tournament" when in fact he has done that. One time with a Siena team that beat B10 Ohio St in the first round. Then people that are complaining about this want to turn around and take a chance on hiring someone with a similar record of accomplishment at a lower level.........which is certainly no guarantee that they will be even as good as Fran much less better than he is. That speaks to the desire for immediate gratification based on emotions..... That is not logic.
Which leads me to the point....that IF some fans want Fran gone then don't be half assed and gamble that some guy at a lower level with good success is going to automatically translate to that same level of success at a bigger school in a tougher conference. See Alford, see Lick, see many others who have failed at different schools.
IF we are going to make a change then go big......go after Sean Miller at Xavier, Chris Beard types (not him individually) and pay what it takes to get them here. Otherwise the odds are much more likely that we are going to spend a decade at either a lower level of success, or just getting back to the point we are at now.
We could gamble.....and with great luck we might hire the next great coach....but the odds are against us.
Until Bluder got her 1st sweet 16 appearance with that team led by Sam Logic, who was a big time recruit, she was kind of heading down the same path as Dr. Tom. Above avg coach in top half of conference but never really a threat to get out of the first week of the tourney. But it's like since she got the monkey off her back she's done a great job. Helps having 2 NPOY of the years with Guftason and Clark. It obviously helps that Clark was local but still kudos to Bluder for not letting her leave the state like when Geno convinced Kia Stokes to go to UConn. Bluder has done a great job surrounding those 2 with talent and a good supporting cast. More importantly she has capitalized off them when it came to the tourney (minus last years 2nd rd loss).
Fran's issue is once again backcourt. He has had his best players for most part play 3-5. Tough to think of his best tandem at the 1-2 spots. Gesell/Jok? But come tourney time it's guard play and D that matter a lot and that goes against his style and strengths of his teams.
The argument for firing Fran is more philosophy based than a pure W-L tournament profile. His teams suck in March because he never has a good backcourt and rarely has had a center that can block or alter shots at the rim along with being effective in running the floor and contributing offensively. His recruiting is consistently terrible even with local talent.
He’s also put himself in a bunch of situations that don’t reflect well on himself or the program, playing his untalented kids ahead of players like Keegan Murray or his multitude of run-ins with officials. He’s also old and unless you are a legendary coach that always hurts a program. Its time for him to find a fresh start somewhere else and for Iowa to take a big swing at another coach.
He’s also put himself in a bunch of situations that don’t reflect well on himself or the program, playing his untalented kids ahead of players like Keegan Murray or his multitude of run-ins with officials. He’s also old and unless you are a legendary coach that always hurts a program. Its time for him to find a fresh start somewhere else and for Iowa to take a big swing at another coach.
This whole deal is kinda dumb because the list of coaches who seemingly plateau and then get much better is much much smaller than the list of coaches who plateau and then fade into obscurity.
Sure Fran could turn into the MBB equivalent of Bluder, but for every Bluder there are five Jamie Dixons, Mike Andersons, Kevin Stallings, Tom Creans etc...
It's fine to be optimistic mostly because what else can you do. But arguing that you need almost a quarter century with a coach to figure out if they can get to the top level is a pretty poor take.
Sure Fran could turn into the MBB equivalent of Bluder, but for every Bluder there are five Jamie Dixons, Mike Andersons, Kevin Stallings, Tom Creans etc...
It's fine to be optimistic mostly because what else can you do. But arguing that you need almost a quarter century with a coach to figure out if they can get to the top level is a pretty poor take.
The problem with your argument that I and others have is that Frans success is not as great as you're making it out to be. I know you got your facts when it comes to that and we both know what arguments come next. Frans recent success has come from 4 NBA players and that's the best he's done. 4 NBA players the last 4 years and I'd say those results aren't good enough.
Right now is the perfect time to swing for another coach. I don't see an NBA player on next years roster. Next year doesn't look like a tournament team and Frans seat probably gets hotter next year. I think the big difference between you and me is I'm not afraid of the Lick years. Granted our idiot AD gave him 3 years instead of 2. I'm OK with continuing to keep swinging for greatness. Yes I'm all for swinging for greatness even at lowly Iowa. Fran and KF have proven Iowa can be successful. Why's it crazy to assume Iowa can be even more successful? Perry, why not join us on the optimistic side of hiring a better coach? Why take the pessimistic view of change?
Thread hijacked - time for a women's sports thread.
It would need to be someone outside the B10, because none of them can win in the postseason anymore either....including Painter. (I exclude Izzo because with all due respect, f*** that guy
)P.S. No, it shouldn't be Otzelberger, either.....(answering that other thread)
If you’ve read my posts completely….. I have said IF we can hire a coach that has proven they can win at the highest levels….then I’m on your team.
If we’re going out to hire a coach who’s gotten hot at a smaller school..then we have evidence of Alford, Lick, and…..Fran! I don’t believe we should spend the money, go through a rebuild, and end up in the same boat we are currently in.
The problem is a men's point guard is going pro at the first chance. There isn't the same incentive for women especially with Nil.
Very true - I sometimes wonder why Fran doesn’t create a European pipeline. I guess we have had a couple but I’m thinking huge Slavic dudes.
This is gonna sound a-holwish, but here goes. Let’s bring back Lickliter and give him some more time. You never know.
Sorry Perry. I love your outlook most times.
