Brooks Wins Hodge

[Psalm 1 guy]

I have to disagree. Dieringer earned it in every way that season. 33-0. 12 FALLS, 7 TF’s and 8 MD’s. Of the 6 non majors only 2 matches were close(Lewis 4-3 and Weatherman 4-2). Neither came anywhere close to a takedown and he smoked them both in rematches(14-4 and 11-5).

Although Retherford’s percentages were slightly better at 34-0 with 15 FALLS, 8 TF’s and 7 MD’s, I would argue rather vehemently that 149 was not remotely as tough as 165 that year.

I also believe style points play a big factor. As tough as Retherford was on top a large portion of that is hard to watch as he simply grinded guys down with a double leg ride. Over time he would turn many people just like Lee would due to incredible power and relentlessly wearing guys down. If the refs would have called double leg rides more like they do now, it may have actually hurt his percentages as much of it looks like stalling early on no matter how active you are grinding on the head and neck.

With that said, I do agree that both guys were deserving, but I definitely would not have favored Retherford over Ringer that season…

Fair points. I do appreciate the use of the specific statistics for their respective seasons.

 

[bourbon n blues]

I have to disagree. Dieringer earned it in every way that season. 33-0. 12 FALLS, 7 TF’s and 8 MD’s. Of the 6 non majors only 2 matches were close(Lewis 4-3 and Weatherman 4-2). Neither came anywhere close to a takedown and he smoked them both in rematches(14-4 and 11-5).

Although Retherford’s percentages were slightly better at 34-0 with 15 FALLS, 8 TF’s and 7 MD’s, I would argue rather vehemently that 149 was not remotely as tough as 165 that year.

I also believe style points play a big factor. As tough as Retherford was on top a large portion of that is hard to watch as he simply grinded guys down with a double leg ride. Over time he would turn many people just like Lee would due to incredible power and relentlessly wearing guys down. If the refs would have called double leg rides more like they do now, it may have actually hurt his percentages as much of it looks like stalling early on no matter how active you are grinding on the head and neck.

With that said, I do agree that both guys were deserving, but I definitely would not have favored Retherford over Ringer that season…

Zain would have just played catch and release getting to more TFs.

 

[Kuch96]

I have to disagree. Dieringer earned it in every way that season. 33-0. 12 FALLS, 7 TF’s and 8 MD’s. Of the 6 non majors only 2 matches were close(Lewis 4-3 and Weatherman 4-2). Neither came anywhere close to a takedown and he smoked them both in rematches(14-4 and 11-5).

Although Retherford’s percentages were slightly better at 34-0 with 15 FALLS, 8 TF’s and 7 MD’s, I would argue rather vehemently that 149 was not remotely as tough as 165 that year.

I also believe style points play a big factor. As tough as Retherford was on top a large portion of that is hard to watch as he simply grinded guys down with a double leg ride. Over time he would turn many people just like Lee would due to incredible power and relentlessly wearing guys down. If the refs would have called double leg rides more like they do now, it may have actually hurt his percentages as much of it looks like stalling early on no matter how active you are grinding on the head and neck.

With that said, I do agree that both guys were deserving, but I definitely would not have favored Retherford over Ringer that season…

You: Dieringer earned it in every way that season

Reality (after you provided the stats):

Hodge criteria, in order of importance:

1. Record - Retherford
2. Number of pins - Retherford
3. Dominance - Retherford

"Style points" aren't a criteria lol

 

[MSU158]

Zain would have just played catch and release getting to more TFs.

Although he was very solid on his feet he was not a takedown specialist. Truly, a lot of his points and eventual separation in matches came from how brutal he was on top with legs. Without that, he was still going to win comfortably, but he wasn’t going to rack up takedowns at will to win 25-10 off of 2 point takedowns.

 

[MSU158]

You: Dieringer earned it in every way that season

Reality (after you provided the stats):

Hodge criteria, in order of importance:

1. Record - Retherford
2. Number of pins - Retherford
3. Dominance - Retherford

"Style points" aren't a criteria lol

They sure as hell are when you compare 2 with stats that were that close. Remember, it isn’t a computer formula. It’s decided by human beings and the quality of competition was really the main separator for me.

Feel free to go to wrestlestat and actually look at who each respective wrestler pinned, TF’d and then majored. Then look at the close match opponents. Then factor in HOW those scores were arrived at. When most of the time in those matches was spent with Retherford riding legs and most of Dieringer’s time was spent in many other positions it absolutely was and should be a factor…

 

[Kuch96]

They sure as hell are when you compare 2 with stats that were that close. Remember, it isn’t a computer formula. It’s decided by human beings and the quality of competition was really the main separator for me.

Feel free to go to wrestlestat and actually look at who each respective wrestler pinned, TF’d and then majored. Then look at the close match opponents. Then factor in HOW those scores were arrived at. When most of the time in those matches was spent with Retherford riding legs and most of Dieringer’s time was spent in many other positions it absolutely was and should be a factor…

Just at the NCAA tournament alone, Zain pinned Alec Pantaleo and Pat Lugo, and majored Brandon Sorensen. One could argue that Sorensen was a better quality win than Dieringer had that entire season.

 

[Psalm 1 guy]

I had actually forgotten I was on Iowa's forum when I posted the PSU Hodge Winners photo : ) I was too busy trying to figure out how to successfully post a photo and got lost in the moment! I apologize for that. I never intentionally try to be evenly remotely disrespectful to my fellow college wrestling fans. I do think it is a cool photo overall, though. I will be more than happy to delete it if posters here desire it.

 

[MSU158]

Just at the NCAA tournament alone, Zain pinned Alec Pantaleo and Pat Lugo, and majored Brandon Sorensen. One could argue that Sorensen was a better quality win than Dieringer had that entire season.

I am a fan of Sorenson, but I still think both Jordans and Lewis were considerably better. Brandon was the consummate grinder, but he was rather limited. Hell I would even put McFadden over the guys you listed at that point. Lugo needed to switch to Iowa to make several level jumps and that was a rough year for Pantaleo struggling making weight. He was actually pinned 3xs at that NCAA tournament.

Ringer also had two falls in that NCAA and beat Weatherman 11-5 and Lewis 14-4. He would then beat I. Jordan 6-2. Make no mistake Dieringer was incredibly dominant as well and wasn’t as reliant on 1 position. I simply think the style in which he dominated,what I believe to be better competition, makes the difference.

 

[Sharky1203]

Much deserved!

 

[kjb32812]

Although he was very solid on his feet he was not a takedown specialist. Truly, a lot of his points and eventual separation in matches came from how brutal he was on top with legs. Without that, he was still going to win comfortably, but he wasn’t going to rack up takedowns at will to win 25-10 off of 2 point takedowns.

So true. That bow and arrow was brutal. Guy was an absolute beast on top.

 

[bourbon n blues]

Although he was very solid on his feet he was not a takedown specialist. Truly, a lot of his points and eventual separation in matches came from how brutal he was on top with legs. Without that, he was still going to win comfortably, but he wasn’t going to rack up takedowns at will to win 25-10 off of 2 point takedowns.

You did mention the way leg riding is called these days. These days they have a 3 point takedown.

 

[MSU158]

You did mention the way leg riding is called these days. These days they have a 3 point takedown.

lol. Comparing stalling to how it should be called is a universal point. Comparing takedown scoring for 1 year compared to every other year is completely different….

 

[raslen007]

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be on the list honestly.

But those are 2 real losses. They count, and technically, he shouldn't be on the list. But he is BECAUSE he won his fourth. Wrestling with a busted knee, beating 2 former champs before the finals - they help his case for sure. But if he did that to win his third or his second or first - he ain't on the list.

I'll give you an actual scenario when this happened. 2018 Hodge - Jason Nolf had ONE loss this year. It was a med forfeit in a match he was winning. The 2 medical forfeits he took at Big Tens didn't count on his record. Posted an 80% bonus rate - AND GUESS WHAT?

He was not listed as a finalist in the Hodge Trophy Vote, and there were only 4 options (Zain, Nickal, Gross, Z)

So my point stands dingus.

I don't understand your childish name calling when a poster is just giving counter points. This is a discussion format, is it not.

 

[Hawkgma]

I don't understand your childish name calling when a poster is just giving counter points. This is a discussion format, is it not.

This is obviously your first time on the internet so let me welcome you!!!

You dipshit jk

 

[Bones Malone]

I had actually forgotten I was on Iowa's forum when I posted the PSU Hodge Winners photo : ) I was too busy trying to figure out how to successfully post a photo and got lost in the moment! I apologize for that. I never intentionally try to be evenly remotely disrespectful to my fellow college wrestling fans. I do think it is a cool photo overall, though. I will be more than happy to delete it if posters here desire it.

Truth be told, plenty of PSU fans seemingly find themselves doing the same. Most Nitwits like coming here to pridefully glean any positive comment about the PSU program, most generally dropping turds along the way.

It's quite humorous how PSU fans seem to "get lost" so easily or want to “help” save the Iowa program. It's also not uncommon for them to say bad things about Iowa or talk about the glorious virtues of their own program, but on this board. An odd phenomena to be sure...I'd compare to talking(good/bad) about others when their present in the room. It might seem rude to most but not the PSU faithful. The Nitwits never mean to be disrespectful. Most generally, when confronted, they claim it was an honest mistake and it simply got posted on the wrong board or no offense was intended. So, kudos to you for getting out ahead of any negative reaction. Lots of Nitwit phonies on this board. So, are you a genuine god follower or a phony, who is ruthless and pisses on graves?

Oddly, this thread regarding Brooks posted on an Iowa board has created more traffic and received more reactions than a similar thread on the PSU board. It gives the appearance Nitwit nation has become bored with Hodge trophies, 4 time champs & freshman only placing 3rd at the national tourney🙄. Now, go rally the troops...get the numbers up in your own thread on HIV.

 

[Psalm 1 guy]

Truth be told, plenty of PSU fans seemingly find themselves doing the same. Most Nitwits like coming here to pridefully glean any positive comment about the PSU program, most generally dropping turds along the way.

It's quite humorous how PSU fans seem to "get lost" so easily or want to “help” save the Iowa program. It's also not uncommon for them to say bad things about Iowa or talk about the glorious virtues of their own program, but on this board. An odd phenomena to be sure...I'd compare to talking(good/bad) about others when their present in the room. It might seem rude to most but not the PSU faithful. The Nitwits never mean to be disrespectful. Most generally, when confronted, they claim it was an honest mistake and it simply got posted on the wrong board or no offense was intended. So, kudos to you for getting out ahead of any negative reaction. Lots of Nitwit phonies on this board. So, are you a genuine god follower or a phony, who is ruthless and pisses on graves?

Oddly, this thread regarding Brooks posted on an Iowa board has created more traffic and received more reactions than a similar thread on the PSU board. It gives the appearance Nitwit nation has become bored with Hodge trophies, 4 time champs & freshman only placing 3rd at the national tourney🙄. Now, go rally the troops...get the numbers up in your own thread on HIV.

Photo and my comment related to the photo deleted . . .

 

[mcpat]

So my point stands dingus.

When you feel the need to resort to name calling, you are probably lacking in reason.

 

[vhsalum]

When you feel the need to resort to name calling, you are probably lacking in reason.

except for the part where you edited OUT my very detailed reasoning.

 

[bourbon n blues]

lol. Comparing stalling to how it should be called is a universal point. Comparing takedown scoring for 1 year compared to every other year is completely different….

Should? If you want to live in reality “is” is reality. So a great wrestler like Retherford will not change behavior if referees called things differently?

That’s not how reality works. The more talented wrestlers will take advantage of any new scoring or rule changes and those not at their level will see no gain to maybe a regression. A wrestlers like Dake would still be a champ and you might see a guy like Lewan actually be less annoying. |Because he has some moves when he's forced to wrestle.

 

[MSU158]

Should? If you want to live in reality “is” is reality. So a great wrestler like Retherford will not change behavior if referees called things differently?

That’s not how reality works. The more talented wrestlers will take advantage of any new scoring or rule changes and those not at their level will see no gain to maybe a regression. A wrestlers like Dake would still be a champ and you might see a guy like Lewan actually be less annoying. |Because he has some moves when he's forced to wrestle.

Come on, man. Comparing stalling across all of college wrestling is not remotely the same as trying to use a 1 year rule changing takedowns to 3 points. Mind you, they have changed how they call leg riding MORE than the last year.

Even then, I absolutely said Retherford would adapt and still win comfortably. However, I clearly pointed out that he was NEVER a takedown specialist like a Nolf or Mesenbrink and his bonus point totals, especially FALLS would have suffered considerably, if they didn't give him the time to grind down guys on top, especially with the double legs.

None of this is a knock on Retherford. The guy was awesome. Hell, as big of a fan of Metcalf as I was, I would have a really hard time picking Metcalf over him. I was simply pointing out that his style was very dependent on 1 position and I believe Dieringer was every bit as dominant, but in more positions. Saying that about 2 All Time Greats is NOT a bad thing...

 

[smealpsu2005]

I am a fan of Sorenson, but I still think both Jordans and Lewis were considerably better. Brandon was the consummate grinder, but he was rather limited. Hell I would even put McFadden over the guys you listed at that point. Lugo needed to switch to Iowa to make several level jumps and that was a rough year for Pantaleo struggling making weight. He was actually pinned 3xs at that NCAA tournament.

Ringer also had two falls in that NCAA and beat Weatherman 11-5 and Lewis 14-4. He would then beat I. Jordan 6-2. Make no mistake Dieringer was incredibly dominant as well and wasn’t as reliant on 1 position. I simply think the style in which he dominated,what I believe to be better competition, makes the difference.

I wouldn’t call Sorenson limited…Maybe I am biased because he is one of my favorite hawks, but if there was no Zain, Sorenson could have been a two timer.

 

[MSU158]

I wouldn’t call Sorenson limited…Maybe I am biased because he is one of my favorite hawks, but if there was no Zain, Sorenson could have been a two timer.

I can see how the word “limited” could be perceived as a slight when most DI wrestlers can only dream of having his career. However, the point was more about comparing him to the top guys at 165. When I say limited, what skill did Sorenson have that was elite? In fact, what did he do that showed a highly skilled variety in any area?

Again, not meant as a slight, because he was the consummate “grinder” and I love those guys. I just don’t put them at or above guys that are truly elite in 1 or more areas…

 

[Scruddy]

Cael's 6th hodge trophy winner as a head coach. One of his kids wins the hodge trophy nearly 50% of the time since he started coaching at Penn state. Crazy...

Aaron brooks clearly deserved this

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

Looks like Aaron Brooks won the Hodge surprising no one. Great Athlete and well deserved imo.

Penn State’s four-time champ Aaron Brooks wins 2024 Hodge Trophy

NEWTON, Iowa – Paralleling his coach, Cael Sanderson, Penn State’s Aaron Brooks won three NCAA titles at 184 pounds before deciding to move up to the 197-pound weight class in pursuit of his fourth collegiate crown this season.Partly because his body w...

www.themat.com

Well deserved!!

 

[GogglesPaizano]

When most of the time in those matches was spent with Retherford riding legs and most of Dieringer’s time was spent in many other positions it absolutely was and should be a factor…

Yeah right, you watched all 30+ of Retherford's matches a decade ago. He rode legs all the way to all of those pins too.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Maybe you're right but Brooks did have an ever so slightly higher bonus rate and a much higher % of pins and techs. PK is truly a great wrestler and had a dominating season but Brooks was on another level. I'm not quite sure what criteria you were saying that PK had over Brooks. Both were undefeated, PK did win more matches but arguably Brooks wrestled the higher level of competition in the matches he competed in. The old criteria included past performance where Brooks is a 4 timer and did beat PK head to head last year. I know the new criteria doesn't necessarily look at prior years - but wow. Both are high character guys and well deserving, but it's pretty tough to not agree with the Brooks selection - unless of course someone just hates Penn State. Could be wrong but I don't think Brooks even gave up a takedown or reversal all year. The other thing is that with 4 of 5 candidates being from PSU, that definitely took some votes from Brooks on the fan voting. I still miss Spencer. When he was healthy he kind of defined domination.

The table is set for PK next year. Go and get it. Enough said.

 

[MSU158]

Yeah right, you watched all 30+ of Retherford's matches a decade ago. He rode legs all the way to all of those pins too.

View embedded media

I actually did. Back then I watched a LOT. I know you PSU snarks take anything other than absolute adoration as an insult, but I clearly said Retherford was a boss. Hell, I even said I would have had a very difficult time picking Metcalf over Retherford. Mind you, Metcalf was most of the reason Iowa became my home away from home.

Look, I was only giving my reasoning for why I thought Dieringer was a bit more deserving than Retherford that season. One would think they wouldn’t get so bothered when someone was arguing for a guy that went 33-0 with 12 FALLS, 7 TF’s and 8 MD’s. They are both All Time Greats. I simply think Dieringer was a little bit better that particular season…