Too many easy scores along the baseline last year! If Nunge can help defend there, the better!
Can Nunge be a better Kriener?
- Thread starter Wango Z Tango
- Start date
I think this is exactly right. Nunge can be a 4 or 5, but on this team, he will get all of Luka's back up minutes, and maybe some more minutes at 4, depending on the rest of the rotation and match ups. I don't expect Jack to push anyone out of the starting rotation from last year, especially early in the season. Do people really see Connor getting pushed out of minutes, as the starting "4"? I don't. The competition is deep and talented at the perimeter positions. Jack is definitely big and strong enough to be a 5, and is the likely starter at 5 next year.
Regarding McCaffery getting pushed out, I think a lot of Hawk fans want it. The way Iowa fans talk about Nunge, you'd think he was a 3x All B1G. "Dontcha know he was a finalist for Mr. Basketball in Indiana!"
From the limited time I have seen him on the floor, Jack has three key questions to answer in order to answer the OP's question:
1) Can he stay healthy? As the old saying goes, the greatest ability is "availability".
2) Can he bring the toughness/edge that Kriener brought? Ryan could be a bit of an enforcer with attitude - How will Jack respond to contact? He certainly looks to have added strength and could always shoot.
3) How will Jack rebound? Can he hit the offensive boards hard?
1) Can he stay healthy? As the old saying goes, the greatest ability is "availability".
2) Can he bring the toughness/edge that Kriener brought? Ryan could be a bit of an enforcer with attitude - How will Jack respond to contact? He certainly looks to have added strength and could always shoot.
3) How will Jack rebound? Can he hit the offensive boards hard?
"A lot of Hawk fans want McCaffery pushed out of the starting lineup." What??? Lol!!!
Yeah, because fans everywhere beg for someone who led the country in assist/turnover ratio to get yanked from the line-up. Get real dude.
And who is it that all of these Hawk fans want to start instead of Connor? Oh wait, let me guess, it isn't that someone else should be starting, just that Connor shouldn't be starting. Sounds about right.
The only people that don't want Connor starting are people who feel somehow they've been wronged in life and want to blame it on every coach's son that ever gets playing time
Yeah, because fans everywhere beg for someone who led the country in assist/turnover ratio to get yanked from the line-up. Get real dude.
And who is it that all of these Hawk fans want to start instead of Connor? Oh wait, let me guess, it isn't that someone else should be starting, just that Connor shouldn't be starting. Sounds about right.
The only people that don't want Connor starting are people who feel somehow they've been wronged in life and want to blame it on every coach's son that ever gets playing time
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I am still hoping for big things from Nunge, especially the next two years, but I believe Connor is one of our most important players. He is the leader on the court, almost like having a coach who plays. He is also tough as nails, can play four positions, and brings an attitude that rubs off on the other players. If Nunge can play with that attitude and stays healthy, we are going to be very deep at every position.
Some people just want an actual PF to start at PF. U are most certainly a Republican.
This is the biggest problem with Jack. He has not shown the ability to close the baseline or do much else defensively. Go back and watch his freshman year. A decent number of blocks but, as someone correctly noted above, many, indeed most, came from behind blocking smaller players that blew right by him. Part of the defensive lapses undoubtedly arose from being played way out of position but part are a general lack of athleticism and poor defensive skills/habits. Unless we are playing a real "twin tower" opponent I just do not see how Jack get's minutes away from the Ks and P Mac.
Who on Iowa is an “actual 4” that would both fit in better with Iowa’s projected starting lineup and be more productive on the offensive and defensive ends than Connor? And what does politics have to do with it?
Twenty years ago that might have mattered. Putting Connor at PF, really Power Point, gave Iowa way more advantages than it hurt them. He made them better on both ends of the court.
Connor is not a PF. He is a leader and a gritty player and excellent passer, but not a PF. I don't think an average of 4 RB and 6 points is a very good player - especially at PF. JW averages 6 RB and he is a SMALL forward.
Against Penn St last year he scored 3 pts and got 4 RB. Stevens - their PF also had 4 RB but 16 pts. Against Wisky, which we won, he had 6 RB (pretty good), again 3 pts, and was 0/4 on 3pt shots. Connor scored less and rebounded less than every starter for Wisconsin. You need to be at least average in ONE statistic!!!!
Against Penn St last year he scored 3 pts and got 4 RB. Stevens - their PF also had 4 RB but 16 pts. Against Wisky, which we won, he had 6 RB (pretty good), again 3 pts, and was 0/4 on 3pt shots. Connor scored less and rebounded less than every starter for Wisconsin. You need to be at least average in ONE statistic!!!!
Connor is listed on Iowa’s site as a G/F, as is Joe. The traditional PG, SG, SF, PF, C listings are being done away with exactly because of players like Connor who can defend multiple positions while filling multiple roles on offense. Go to most rosters and you will see listings of G, F, and C (and occasionally PG, as there are some players you can point to and say “that player is only a PG” or “only a center”)
CM’s role on the team as a facilitator, floor leader, and ballhandler are invaluable to this team... especially when you factor in that he can effectively defend the opposing teams’ 1-4 positions, and especially when he both knows Iowa’s offensive system as well as any of the coaches and will make ridiculously few mistakes. I will acknowledge that rebounding sometimes takes a hit with him in the game
Statistics don’t always tell the story. There are some great scorers that aren’t total players. Score 18 and give up 20. I don’t need a bunch of rebounds, if my guy doesn’t get a rebound it isn’t a statistic but it helps my team win. A guy jumps great, gets 8 spectacular rebounds a game, looks great doing it. Gives up 5 put backs because he doesn’t block out. Games are won in many ways.
If you're going to sound like someone from 1997, you should argue that he's not a PF because of height.
But he can play 1-4 and spent a lot of time guarding PFs last year. Better get over it and enjoy it..
CM is extremely valuable due to his excellent passing and low turnover ratio. But what I like best about him is that he's one tough sob and that toughness Jack's up the rest of the team. Against physical teams he and Luka are huge in keeping the rest of the team's attitude going.
Nunge injured his knee last year, like a hundred other players around the country. As far as I remember, that's been his only health issue. He played in 33 games as a frosh. Don't know why he would be considered injury prone. I look forward to seeing an even bigger, stronger Nunge this season.
I don't want to (or know how) to check CMs defense against each and every forward (of any kind) he guarded. As others have stated and I agree, he is a great floor leader and passer. However, as to assists, he averaged 4. Several others on the team were a little over/under 2 per game. So that is 4-5 points a game he could sort of claim. However it is probable we would have scored at least 1 or 2 baskets anyway. So that means he can claim maybe 2-3 points from assists. So his scoring is 8-9 then. Not really a great number IMO.
I would like Nunge to score 10-12 pts and get 6-8 rebounds a game. I think that is perhaps possible, if he started and played 25 minutes. (Optimistic, I know) I would take that over Connor's numbers.
I just want a PF that can do that. If Garza can do double that, as last year, there is no reason we can't find a PF that goes 10 pts and 7 rb.
And Kenyon M scored 9.9 and had 4.6 RB and he was a guard. So it IS possible.
I would like Nunge to score 10-12 pts and get 6-8 rebounds a game. I think that is perhaps possible, if he started and played 25 minutes. (Optimistic, I know) I would take that over Connor's numbers.
I just want a PF that can do that. If Garza can do double that, as last year, there is no reason we can't find a PF that goes 10 pts and 7 rb.
And Kenyon M scored 9.9 and had 4.6 RB and he was a guard. So it IS possible.
You certainly are hung up on stats. Think Kenyon shooting better than .584 from the line would have helped? Lots of ways to look at things.
What made CM really good for this team is he kept Luka on the floor. We were short handed and he played strong underneath and took alot of fouls before giving up and one's. The guy just knows what's best for the team. If Nunge can play tough and has to give up a foul, make it count.
I certainly thought he was the best option (other than Kreiner) last year and Kreiner got better as the season went on. But IMO he
isn't the best option this year. If his 3pt shooting gets to > 33% consistently, then I would think PG would be his spot.
isn't the best option this year. If his 3pt shooting gets to > 33% consistently, then I would think PG would be his spot.
I agree with the almost consensus about how valuable Connor was to Iowa's success last year. In addition to what others have mentioned, like assists/TO and versatility, he is a vocal leader on the court on BOTH ends. He was by far our best help/team defender IMO. It is also nice to have some guys on the court that won't take any crap from the opponents (or even the zebras).
I do not see the love for Jack. He's been here four years, admittedly injured for most of his second year playing, and has not really shown anything but average offensive skills, below average rebounding skills and poor defensive skills.
Jack is 6'11" and averaged 4.6 RPG during his five games. C Mac averaged 4.0 over the season. Wouldn't the size differential be most significantly displayed in rebounding? Stats are not everything but they are important metrics of success and skill. Assuming Jack gets more inside shots, because he as a six inch height differential with C Mac, his production is not significantly more efficient JN 36.4% / C Mac 34.4%. Another insignificant difference at doing something that is helped by size. JN inferior in almost every other metric.
Even the intangibles skew toward C Mac. The Hawks will not face a lot of big guys that can effectively chase Connor around the floor when Iowa's got the ball. C Mac will struggle with defense when he gets isolated down low against a much taller opponent but that guy still has to hang on the other end as well. Barring injuries or big foul trouble, Connor will always be surrounded by good to great scorers so that big man chasing him is probably not going to be in a position the help on the other four players. The more up tempo and fluid the game the less significant size poses for Connor.
C Mac is stronger and more physical and can play some emergency post defense against bigger players. Jack is 6'11' but plays like he's 6'5". It is no coincidence that the team improved its play after the "Jack as a forward" experiment ended. I'm never going to write off a player before their career is over-having been so wrong going into Eric May's senior season-but at this point Jack Nunge has not demonstrated an ability to be anything but a reserve center, playing behind a 1st Team AA center. That could change but at this point, based on just eyeball, I think both Murrays are better options.
Jack is 6'11" and averaged 4.6 RPG during his five games. C Mac averaged 4.0 over the season. Wouldn't the size differential be most significantly displayed in rebounding? Stats are not everything but they are important metrics of success and skill. Assuming Jack gets more inside shots, because he as a six inch height differential with C Mac, his production is not significantly more efficient JN 36.4% / C Mac 34.4%. Another insignificant difference at doing something that is helped by size. JN inferior in almost every other metric.
Even the intangibles skew toward C Mac. The Hawks will not face a lot of big guys that can effectively chase Connor around the floor when Iowa's got the ball. C Mac will struggle with defense when he gets isolated down low against a much taller opponent but that guy still has to hang on the other end as well. Barring injuries or big foul trouble, Connor will always be surrounded by good to great scorers so that big man chasing him is probably not going to be in a position the help on the other four players. The more up tempo and fluid the game the less significant size poses for Connor.
C Mac is stronger and more physical and can play some emergency post defense against bigger players. Jack is 6'11' but plays like he's 6'5". It is no coincidence that the team improved its play after the "Jack as a forward" experiment ended. I'm never going to write off a player before their career is over-having been so wrong going into Eric May's senior season-but at this point Jack Nunge has not demonstrated an ability to be anything but a reserve center, playing behind a 1st Team AA center. That could change but at this point, based on just eyeball, I think both Murrays are better options.
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As evidenced by leading the nation in AST/T ratio.
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When you say he's been here 4 years, you do realize this is year 4, and most of his stats come from his true freshman season, when he needed work on his strength. Even some great Bigs for Iowa (like Stokes and Uthoff) needed some time to show their real potential.
Yes, I realize all those things and they were built into my opinion. We have only the body of work we have on which to base a subjective prediction. Jack has not shown much in the games he's played, including last season before the injury. Team performance improved dramatically after Jack's injury.
I could be wrong but I'm probably not. As with all the doings of man time will provide judgment.
Kreiner was really underrated. Great glue guy, did the dirty work, awesome rebounder, and had really good range too. Huge wingspan. Had a toughness to him. Nunge seems a little too skinny to fill that void but he could add a different dynamic
I agree that Kreiner was underrated and was really valuable last year, but Nunge is NOT skinny. You must be thinking freshman Jack Nunge, not the one who has been lifting weights for three years.
No, you‘re probably wrong Just as your assertion that the team improved DRAMATICALLY after his injury.
Not necessarily I’m a big Connor fan but could see how his versatility could be a real asset coming off the bench. He could back up every position except the 5. A guy that could provide a spark when needed with his competitive hard nosed play. What you really have to like about him is even with his fierce competitiveness he still plays under control at all times.
His game tonight was very Kreiner-like. Some timely outside shooting with a few nifty post moves. I didn‘t know he had the inside game in him. If we can get 10 points out of him while backing up Garza we’re in good shape. Anything more is gravy.
Yes, there were a few plays where he sealed off his defender very well and led to an easy bucket. Something that Garza is excellent at.
He brings different skills. I hope he can address rebounding issues I expect we’ll have at times. Ryan had strength’s that have been talked about here at length and Jack will bring a different skill sets. I don’t see the need to compare them, I just hope Jack brings an overall plus.
When I look at the RK/JN I get the comparison because of their size and the role that they will play in backing up Garza and occassionally playing along side of him. That said, they are two different types of players with some of the same abilities (shot blocking-3 pt shooting). So I think the main difference is that RK was more physical and more aggressive for most of his career. Jack is more athletic.....and with the added muscle hopefully comes confidence and more aggressiveness.
I think that Jack has more updside because of his better athleticism (mostly quicker and faster) but to me it is all dependent upon his confidence/aggressiveness. His return game the other night is hopefully a precursor for that confidence/aggressiveness and apparently a continuation of what he has played like in practice.
So, that answer to the question "Can Nunge be better than Kriener?"....I think the "can" part makes it a clear yes that he can. The question "will he be better" is yet to be seen but it was a good start the other night.
I think that Jack has more updside because of his better athleticism (mostly quicker and faster) but to me it is all dependent upon his confidence/aggressiveness. His return game the other night is hopefully a precursor for that confidence/aggressiveness and apparently a continuation of what he has played like in practice.
So, that answer to the question "Can Nunge be better than Kriener?"....I think the "can" part makes it a clear yes that he can. The question "will he be better" is yet to be seen but it was a good start the other night.
