Christian Arbitration

[slieb85]

Tough day today I have been called a liar by Natural and a bad person by you.

I agree with the examples you gave about debt purchasing companies and any company that takes advantage of their customers. You just did not show me where Higuera Hardwoods or Carolina Cabins did that.

I'm not necessarily calling you a bad person. I do think that if you thought logically about this, you would see this is a terrible thing to allow a company to sneak into T&Cs. I understand that you or I might be more careful about T&Cs, but that's not the reality of the world, and sometimes we have to work within the confines of what reality actually is.

Also, I honestly think I find this more appalling. Maybe because it's such a weird thing that I never knew existed. Maybe because most of the debtors did or do still owe those debts, whereas this is just something sprung onto unsuspecting customers of a company.

And one thing that has been ignored in this thread is the fact that one of these companies was provided as an alternative to jail/prison time, by a judge. I find that to be about the worst of all of it. If you're going to send offenders to rehabilitation centers as opposed to jail, you have my support. And I honestly (I might have to think about this more before I fully commit) think that I am OK with those centers being religious in nature. But, what I'm certainly not OK with, is altering the rights for any subsequent dispute resolution with those companies, to make them comply with these Christian Arbitration clauses, as whoever gets this is basically choosing between jail and being subject to these clauses, which to me is completely outrageous.

 

[naturalmwa]

There's no slurping of wine in black church. We don't kneel either.

Blacks love them some Jesus, gheys are welcomed. That being said, I can't promise they won't try to preach the ghey out of you. White's attempt to pray it out, black ppl will yell at you as if attempting to frighten it out..... like shock therapy!

Maybe we could find common ground over a Kim English set.

 

[naturalmwa]

Tough day today I have been called a liar by Natural and a bad person by you.

I agree with the examples you gave about debt purchasing companies and any company that takes advantage of their customers. You just did not show me where Higuera Hardwoods or Carolina Cabins did that.

It wasn't so much a liar as I accused you of not knowing your own mind or behaving consistently. More obtuse and crazy than duplicitous.

 

[TexMichFan]

I'm not necessarily calling you a bad person. I do think that if you thought logically about this, you would see this is a terrible thing to allow a company to sneak into T&Cs. I understand that you or I might be more careful about T&Cs, but that's not the reality of the world, and sometimes we have to work within the confines of what reality actually is.

Also, I honestly think I find this more appalling. Maybe because it's such a weird thing that I never knew existed. Maybe because most of the debtors did or do still owe those debts, whereas this is just something sprung onto unsuspecting customers of a company.

And one thing that has been ignored in this thread is the fact that one of these companies was provided as an alternative to jail/prison time, by a judge. I find that to be about the worst of all of it. If you're going to send offenders to rehabilitation centers as opposed to jail, you have my support. And I honestly (I might have to think about this more before I fully commit) think that I am OK with those centers being religious in nature. But, what I'm certainly not OK with, is altering the rights for any subsequent dispute resolution with those companies, to make them comply with these Christian Arbitration clauses, as whoever gets this is basically choosing between jail and being subject to these clauses, which to me is completely outrageous.

We are just going to have agree we disagree on whether they are sneaking it in. Most people are not going to look so you could say that every company is sneaking it in.

I am with you not hearing of this before you brought it up today and it is surprising.

The rehabilitation centers I have no problem with having a religious theme but I think they should be voluntary and I don't think the court system is a place to find the voluntary I mean. So on that point we agree.

 

[TexMichFan]

It wasn't so much a liar as I accused you of not knowing your own mind or behaving consistently. More obtuse and crazy than duplicitous.

Natural, I am a simple man and when you say you don't believe I meant what I wrote that is pretty much calling me a liar in my book. Have no problem with people disagreeing with me or even calling me out if they think I am not consistent that is just not how I read your statement.

Now I feel like you are calling me crazy.

Pretty much a crazy lying bad person. I am going to take my keyboard and going to sleep.

 

[naturalmwa]

Natural, I am a simple man and when you say you don't believe I meant what I wrote that is pretty much calling me a liar in my book. Have no problem with people disagreeing with me or even calling me out if they think I am not consistent that is just not how I read your statement.

Now I feel like you are calling me crazy.

Pretty much a crazy lying bad person. I am going to take my keyboard and going to sleep.

There is nothing bad about being a crazy liar. Honesty is highly over rated and crazy is color. Sleep well.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

Natural, I am a simple man and when you say you don't believe I meant what I wrote that is pretty much calling me a liar in my book. Have no problem with people disagreeing with me or even calling me out if they think I am not consistent that is just not how I read your statement.

Now I feel like you are calling me crazy.

Pretty much a crazy lying bad person. I am going to take my keyboard and going to sleep.

don't worry, natural makes me question my craziness sometimes, I think he's probably a good Samaritan in that way

 

[uniFIGHTuniFIGHT]

Someone distinguish this from Sharia law for me.

The practice in a secular nation of laws? Indistinguishable. Completely unacceptable. Where's the line for us, though? The Amish are peaceful, but their youth get one shot at greater America only after they've been raised Amish (an opportunity for a validation/rejection of their views or a brainwashing?).

 

[uniFIGHTuniFIGHT]

Hold up. The federal government was created by the creator. It's holy and perfect by extension. I don't think you understand your religion very well.

Haven't read almost any of this thread, but this is already the most interesting argument for me. If you take the texts at face-value, this government was absolutely created by people who believed they were doing the creator a solid. And they may have thought that at the time. Also, it's not too far-fetched to think that OiT thinks the Hollywood soundstage moon-landing was orchestrated by the founders (who were setting in motion a plan for global domination by the elite). Have you ever thought you've reached an understanding of the world just to wait one week and realize that you've been wrong the whole time and that greater forces are in play?

 

[uniFIGHTuniFIGHT]

easy: Christianity and America: we allow Christians and muslims and sharia followers and everyone, Buddhists, atheists. in sharia law, not so much. it's very easy to distinguish the two.

Not really.I'm not an apologist for Islam (I actually hate that religion as much as I hate Christianity, odd that I don't mind Judaism), but I live one block from a Halal grocery and you'd be goddamned right if you guessed that I buy my tahini and chickpeas there when I want to make hummus. Without issue. There's no Sharia in Des Moines and there won't be (we wouldn't tolerate it).

Edit: It's the religion of the Jews I respect. And I don't respect the dietary laws of strict Jews or strict Muslims. I prefer the American way of slaughtering animals.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

They have been around 15 years so it has not hurt their business too bad. Of course most customers may not know what they are signing.

I found the inclusion of Higuera rather strange in the article. They don't reference any problems people have had with this just throw it out there as some evil thing. I think you may be overlooking the fact that some people may not be bothered by this.

As long as the rest of us get a clear, early, and informative warning.

Imagine going through several estimates, picking a vendor, getting the loan - only to find at the last moment of signing that you are agreeing to have disputes handled under Sharia rules with an imam having the final say,

Some sort of prominent labeling (or the appropriate equivalent) early in the process seems justified.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

Not really.I'm not an apologist for Islam (I actually hate that religion as much as I hate Christianity, odd that I don't mind Judaism), but I live one block from a Halal grocery and you'd be goddamned right if you guessed that I buy my tahini and chickpeas there when I want to make hummus. Without issue. There's no Sharia in Des Moines and there won't be (we wouldn't tolerate it).

Edit: It's the religion of the Jews I respect. And I don't respect the dietary laws of strict Jews or strict Muslims. I prefer the American way of slaughtering animals.

I actually respect the jews as well. and I was not saying every single muslim follows sharia. I think there are westernized muslims and sharia radicals in the world and many other sects. many variations of muslimness, just like Christians and jews. not everyone follows the same doctrine.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

easy: Christianity and America: we allow Christians and muslims and sharia followers and everyone, Buddhists, atheists. in sharia law, not so much. it's very easy to distinguish the two.

So . . . I asked for someone to distinguish the 2 and your answer is that it's very easy to do so . . . and then you didn't.

BAU

 

[TexMichFan]

As long as the rest of us get a clear, early, and informative warning.

Imagine going through several estimates, picking a vendor, getting the loan - only to find at the last moment of signing that you are agreeing to have disputes handled under Sharia rules with an imam having the final say,

Some sort of prominent labeling (or the appropriate equivalent) early in the process seems justified.

Would you boycott a business like Higuera over their choice of arbitration service provider?

 

[22*43*51]

So the morale of this story is "read the fine print".

 

[ottumwan in tx]

So . . . I asked for someone to distinguish the 2 and your answer is that it's very easy to do so . . . and then you didn't.

BAU

Christianity is accepting, and sharia is non-accepting and totalitarian .

this Christian arbitration stuff is nothing like sharia crap, which makes women wear head-dress and makes women not drive. I know you cannot see the difference but some of us read those books when we were kids in iowa that showed, "some of these things are not like the other"... were those the sra readers or some such? the books in the doctor's office?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Not really.I'm not an apologist for Islam (I actually hate that religion as much as I hate Christianity, odd that I don't mind Judaism), but I live one block from a Halal grocery and you'd be goddamned right if you guessed that I buy my tahini and chickpeas there when I want to make hummus. Without issue. There's no Sharia in Des Moines and there won't be (we wouldn't tolerate it).

Edit: It's the religion of the Jews I respect. And I don't respect the dietary laws of strict Jews or strict Muslims. I prefer the American way of slaughtering animals.

I was with you until the last sentence.

 

[The Tradition]

Even if it was the VERY FIRST THING discussed on the click wrap, the vast majority of people still wouldn't read it.

 

[22*43*51]

I was with you until the last sentence.

Efficient.

 

[slieb85]

So the morale of this story is "read the fine print".

Moral*

And no, the moral is beware of Christians who say they are afraid of Sharia law, yet have no problem settling disputes where "the Bible" is the Ultimate Authority.

Damn. Those Christians really have it tough in America. I feel soooooooooooo bad for them.

 

[naturalmwa]

Haven't read almost any of this thread, but this is already the most interesting argument for me. If you take the texts at face-value, this government was absolutely created by people who believed they were doing the creator a solid. And they may have thought that at the time. Also, it's not too far-fetched to think that OiT thinks the Hollywood soundstage moon-landing was orchestrated by the founders (who were setting in motion a plan for global domination by the elite). Have you ever thought you've reached an understanding of the world just to wait one week and realize that you've been wrong the whole time and that greater forces are in play?

I'm struggling to think of an example where I thought the world was one way only to discover it was greatly different. I suppose the time I told my mom the tooth fairy forgot me and she went to her purse and gave me some money might count. That was a revelation. Do you have an example?

I assume you know this, but I didn't intend for my post to be a serious argument so much as a poke at the peculiar theology of my favorite poster, OiT. Creator as he uses the term isn't a supernatural spirit like Yahweh, but a group of technologically advanced space aliens. So my logic was that if these alien creators setup the US government, it doesn't make sense to oppose its operation. To which he wiggled free by claiming the current US government is a bastardization of the original form the alien creators intended. This would all make for a fun sci-fi movie.

 

[The Tradition]

Since they're aware they can get away with this, why WOULDN'T they fear Muslims doing the same thing?

 

[slieb85]

Christianity is accepting, and sharia is non-accepting and totalitarian .

this Christian arbitration stuff is nothing like sharia crap, which makes women wear head-dress and makes women not drive. I know you cannot see the difference but some of us read those books when we were kids in iowa that showed, "some of these things are not like the other"... were those the sra readers or some such? the books in the doctor's office?

How is Christian law accepting of my (non)beliefs? If they use Bible verses as reasoning for settling a dispute between me and you, how are they accepting? They're peddling their version of morals onto me.

 

[slieb85]

Even if it was the VERY FIRST THING discussed on the click wrap, the vast majority of people still wouldn't read it.

So maybe we shouldn't allow it in click-wrap agreements at all (which has been my basic argument)?

You want it in an arms-length, negotiated contract? Have at it. But these yahoos have it as a condition to purchase, hidden in click-wrap.

 

[The Tradition]

Would you want that for all arbitration clauses, or just religious-based ones?

 

[slieb85]

Since they're aware they can get away with this, why WOULDN'T they fear Muslims doing the same thing?

Do you not know how to use the quote function?

I'm going to guess this was addressed at me. I'll take a stab at it.

Two reasons: First, there's no example of anyone doing it. For now, it's unfounded. They've got theirs, but they haven't been subjected to others as of yet (I hope some company does). Second, I think most judges would find some reasoning to throw out the clause. Part of one of these decisions mentioned in the article referenced that he believed the arbitration wasn't substantially different, simply involved prayer (obviously not the case just by reading the rules of the arbitration...). In a Sharia Law Arbitration, I'm guessing some judges would finally find their spines and stand up to the religious nuts. Sadly, they would do this because the nuts in this case are the scary brown Muslims.

 

[22*43*51]

How is Christian law accepting of my (non)beliefs? If they use Bible verses as reasoning for settling a dispute between me and you, how are they accepting? They're peddling their version of morals onto me.

Is that how it really goes?

 

[slieb85]

Would you want that for all arbitration clauses, or just religious-based ones?

All arbitration clauses where the "ultimate" law was anything other than U.S. Federal, State, or local law.

If I sell you a wingding and in the T&Cs it mandates that we go to "Steve's Arbitration", and in the arbitration rules it says we'll use Federal, State, local laws, but the ultimate law will be Monopoly rules, I'm going to go ahead and say that's wrong.

 

[The Tradition]

Do you not know how to use the quote function?

....

Sadly, they would do this because the nuts in this case are the scary brown Muslims.

Yes, I know how to quote... is it required to do this if it's obvious who the comment is directed to?

And okay, you've now drifted into wing nut territory with the "scary brown" crap.

 

[slieb85]

Is that how it really goes?

From their website (http://peacemaker.net/summary-of-services/summary-of-services-2/):

Arbitration

Arbitration is a formal process that allows the parties to present evidence (their story) to the arbitrator(s), who decide the issue(s) based on the information provided by the parties and their desired outcomes, and by applying state, federal, or local laws, with the Holy Scriptures (the Bible) being the supreme authority.


So, you'll all are good if I change (the Bible) to the Koran and hide it in my T&Cs?

4. Application of Law

Conciliators shall take into consideration any state, federal, or local laws that the parties bring to their attention, but the Holy Scriptures (the Bible) shall be the supreme authority governing every aspect of the conciliation process.

Take a look at these and tell me this is something you think should be brought to the attention of hardwood floor purchasers and cabin renters?

http://peacemaker.net/rules-of-procedure/

Read them for yourself.

 

[slieb85]

Yes, I know how to quote... is it required to do this if it's obvious who the comment is directed to?

And okay, you've now drifted into wing nut territory with the "scary brown" crap.

Yes. It is good practice, especially in a thread with many participants. I almost missed your comment.

And it's true. If you don't think so, just read this thread. Many many people who have no problem with this type of arbitration but who would have a problem with Sharia law arbitration.

And you yourself even posed the question of why wouldn't they fear Muslims doing this. Do you think they fear it because Sharia Law is different from Christian law? Nope, they fear it because it's Muslim law.

 

[22*43*51]

Read them for yourself.

That's nutty.

If enough people disagree with this nuttiness they should lose enough business to close them down.

 

[slieb85]

That's nutty.

If enough people disagree with this nuttiness they should lose enough business to close them down.

Gotta know about these provisions first. Hell, I didn't even know faith based arbitration was a thing until yesterday, and I'm in law school...

 

[22*43*51]

Gotta know about these provisions first. Hell, I didn't even know faith based arbitration was a thing until yesterday, and I'm in law school...

I wonder what percentage of their customer complaints need to be resolved with arbitration.

If they have good enough products and service this may rarely arise; therefore it is tough to have it receive visibility.

Also, is this faith-based arbitration federally allowed, or is it a state allowance?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Would you boycott a business like Higuera over their choice of arbitration service provider?

Probably.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Efficient.

Cruel.

 

[The Tradition]

Well, mandatory arbitration under

I wonder what percentage of their customer complaints need to be resolved with arbitration.

If they have good enough products and service this may rarely arise; therefore it is tough to have it receive visibility.

Also, is this faith-based arbitration federally allowed, or is it a state allowance?

You can write any sort of dispute provision into the contract you like. In the event of a dispute regarding the provision, you can ask the judge to quash it.

They are not always enforced.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Moral*

And no, the moral is beware of Christians who say they are afraid of Sharia law, yet have no problem settling disputes where "the Bible" is the Ultimate Authority.

Nailed it.

 

[The Tradition]

Cruel.

Worse than this?

 

[naturalmwa]

That's nutty.

If enough people disagree with this nuttiness they should lose enough business to close them down.

Oh good lord.

Is that how it really goes?