Consumer Reports sez: EVs have 79% more problems than ICE vehicles...

[The Tradition]

Electric vehicles may be the future, but in some ways they look a lot like the past. Particularly reliability.

That’s the bottom line from Consumer Reports’ eagerly anticipated annual reliability survey, which sounds like an ‘80s tribute act: the top tier, brands credited with excellent or very good reliability, is dominated by Japanese automakers, with a smattering of Europeans and a South Korean.

Unlike those bad old days, though, the culprits are advanced electronics, not oil leaks and faulty transmissions.

Electric vehicles are among the worst offenders.

“The problems with internal combustion engines are mostly sorted,” Jake Fisher, Consumer Reports senior director of testing, told me. “The new problems are mostly associated with electronics: Electric vehicles that use brand new platforms and power trains.”

In a positive change from the era of the Cadillac Cimarron, U.S.- based brands — Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Dodge, Ram and Tesla — earned six of CR’s 11 “good” ratings, along with Hyundai, Infiniti, Nissan, Genesis and Audi.

Spots 22-29 —“fair” — went to Ford, Lincoln, GMC, Volvo, Jeep,Volkswagen, Rivian and Ford. Chrysler had the bottom rung, “poor,” to itself. Several brands — Alfa Romeo, Mitsubishi, Land Rover and Jaguar among them — were omitted due to insufficient data.

Consumer Reports brand reliability ratings​

1. Lexus
2. Toyota
3. Mini
4. Acura
5. Honda
6. Subaru
7. Mazda
8. Porsche
9. BMW
10. Kia
11. Hyundai
12. Buick
13. Infiniti
14. Tesla
15. Ram
16. Cadillac
17. Nissan
18. Genesis
19. Audi
20. Chevrolet
21. Dodge
22. Ford
23. Lincoln
24. GMC
25. Volvo
26. Jeep
27. Volkswagen
28. Rivian
29. Mercedes-Benz
30. Chrysler

More tech, more problems​

“This is a super exciting time in the auto industry,” Fisher said. “EVs are bringing major changes in technology and performance. Cars and trucks that can go zero to 60 in less than four seconds are becoming commonplace.”

So much for the good news.

EVs in model years 2021-24 suffered about twice as many reliability problems as internal combustion engines, or ICE, according to CR’s survey of about 70,000 vehicles.

The five least reliable vehicle categories, from bad to worse, are:

• Electric cars
• Electric SUVs
• Full-size pickups
• Midsize pickups
• Electric pickups

It’s rare a category of vehicles is so small that it’s easy to point fingers at specific vehicles, but with only two EV pickups on the market — Chevy hadn’t sold enough electric Silverados to be in the survey — one can safely say:

• The Ford F-150 Lightning and Rivian R1T fared poorly with CR readers.
• Tesla, despite its own well-documented quality issues, has a pretty low bar to clear when it finally begins delivering meaningful numbers of its long awaited Cybertruck.

EVs have 79% more problems than ICE vehicles, according to CR’s survey. CR excludes problems with commercial CD fast chargers from the report. They’re an infrastructure issue, but they’re also another reason many buyers are reluctant to commit to EVs.

Hybrids were the big winners, with an average 26% fewer problems. Faring worst were plug-in hybrid vehicles, an extremely promising technology that features a bigger battery than a regular hybrid, so the vehicle can go farther on electricity in daily driving, but also has a gasoline engine for long trips. PHEVs had 146% as many issues as ICE vehicles.

“PHEVs are more complicated and automakers have less experience with them,” Fisher said. “Although Toyota, Hyundai and Kia’s PHEVs are all very reliable."

Consumer Reports' most reliable vehicle categories​

1. Compact cars
2. Sporty/sports cars
3. Small pickups
4. Midsize/large cars
5. Luxury midsize/large cars
6. Compact SUVs
7. Subcompact SUVs
8. Luxury midsize SUVs
9. Luxury compact cars
10. Luxury compact SUVs
11. Minivans
12. Midsize two-row SUVs
13. Luxury midsize three-row/large SUVs
14. Midsize three-row/large SUVs
15. Electric cars
16. Electric SUVs
17. Full-size pickups
18. Midsize pickups
19. Electric pickups

Practice makes reliable, if not perfect​

The poor reliability isn’t due to an inherent problem with EVs, but rather that the technology and parts to make them are new.

“EVs are brand new vehicles with brand new powertrains and often built on brand new platforms,” Fisher said. "That’s a lot of things that can go wrong, especially in the early days of a technology’s adoption.”

There’s a double whammy on top of that, he said: Established automakers are new to building EVs, while EV specialists are new to the high-volume production of automobiles.

Want more? Many EVs are marketed mainly to early adopters, people who crave the latest technology.

“Throwing all that technology at a new vehicle just complicates things further,” Fisher said.

“Hybrids have been around for 25 years. They’re established technology with reliability superior to ICE. And they’re generally sold to practical people who aren’t weighed down by a desire for new features and technology.”

Unanticipated consequences​

On top of all that, over the air software updates, or OTAs, touted to allow automakers to fix problems and add features with a download, occasionally misfire, requiring another OTA to fix an issue that may have disabled a key system, or the entire vehicle.

“Used well, OTAs are a positive,” Fisher said. “Used poorly, they’re a problem.”

The leading automakers in CR’s reliability survey, Toyota and Honda, “are very conservative,” Fisher said.

General Motors and Ford, by comparison, “are all-in in new technology, and they walked away from small and midsize sedans that were some of the industry’s most reliable vehicles.”

Consumer Reports pummels electric vehicle reliability, praises hybrids

EVs and their advanced electronics have 79% more problems than ICE vehicles, according to CR's eagerly anticipated annual survey.

www.freep.com

 

[HROT]

“Internal combustion engine vehicles far more problematic than horses.”

 

[alaskanseminole]

Where's Jeep!?!?!! [scrolls down] Yup, right where we should be. [laughs and holds breath until next repair]

 

[alaskanseminole]

Also, I thought the draw to EVs was saving the darn planet, not our pocket books. Did that messaging somehow change and I missed the memo?

 

[SolarHawk]

Mercedes Benz rank is shocking

 

[artradley]

Also, I thought the draw to EVs was saving the darn planet, not our pocket books. Did that messaging somehow change and I missed the memo?

Plus, they are simply better. In pretty much every aspect. As the article points out, the problems are generally related to the fact that they are new. Time and experience will take care of this.

I know one thing for a fact. If we had been using EVs our entire lives and somebody introduced an ICE we would all reject that technology as pitiful. Because compared to electric, it is.

It Tradition is a conservative, and conservatives have taken a political stance against electrics, for no discernible reason than because they are clean and don’t rely on fossil fuels. So they look for any reason to tell us why EVs will never work. Sort of how some people scoffed at the Internet and iPhones,

 

[The Tradition]

Plus, they are simply better. In pretty much every aspect. As the article points out, the problems are generally related to the fact that they are new. Time and experience will take care of this.

I know one thing for a fact. If we had been using EVs our entire lives and somebody introduced an ICE we would all reject that technology as pitiful. Because compared to electric, it is.

It Tradition is a conservative, and conservatives have taken a political stance against electrics, for no discernible reason than because they are clean and don’t rely on fossil fuels. So they look for any reason to tell us why EVs will never work. Sort of how some people scoffed at the Internet and iPhones,

What I'm saying is they're not yet ready for prime time.

 

[SolarHawk]

What I'm saying is they're not yet ready for prime time.

But they are. For daily drivers they’re superior to ICE in many ways.

 

[peacehawk]

So Tesla is more reliable than Chevy, Ford, Dodge, Lincoln, GMC, Chrysler and many more. Got it. Yea, I’ll stick with my almost maintenance free Tesla and fuel up for about $8.

 

[artradley]

What I'm saying is they're not yet ready for prime time.

Sure they are. They have less scheduled maintenance, and someone who rarely drives more than a couple hundred miles at a time (of which there are millions) save time and money going to the gas station several times a year.

They don’t fill every need yet. But they are a superior choice for probably more than half of all Americans. Each year more and more people realize it.

 

[The Tradition]

Sure they are. They have less scheduled maintenance, and someone who rarely drives more than a couple hundred miles at a time (of which there are millions) save time and money going to the gas station several times a year.

They don’t fill every need yet. But they are a superior choice for probably more than half of all Americans. Each year more and more people realize it.

Pity the poor car dealers. After making record profits in the wake of the pandemic and the collapse of just-in-time inventory chains, they're now complaining that selling electric vehicles is too hard. Almost 4,000 dealers from around the United States have sent an open letter to President Joe Biden calling for the government to slow down its plan to increase EV adoption between now and 2032.

Despite our robust economy, the US trails both Europe and China in terms of EV adoption. More and more car buyers are opting to go fully electric each year, although even a record 2023 will fail to see EV uptake reach double-digit percentages.

Mindful of the fact that transportation accounts for the largest segment of US carbon emissions and that our car-centric society encourages driving, the US Department of Energy published a proposed rule in April that would alter the way the government calculates each automaker's corporate average fuel efficiency. If adopted, the new rule would require OEMs to sell many more EVs to avoid large fines. This is in addition to an earlier goal from the White House that calls for one in two new cars sold in 2030 to be EVs.

And that's too ambitious, says the collection of car dealers, who say that new EVs are piling up on their forecourts and can't be sold:

Last year, there was a lot of hope and hype about EVs. Early adopters formed an initial line and were ready to buy these vehicles as soon as we had them to sell. But that enthusiasm has stalled. Today, the supply of unsold BEVs is surging, as they are not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships—even with deep price cuts, manufacturer incentives, and generous government incentives.​

​

While the goals of the regulations are admirable, they require consumer acceptance to become a reality. With each passing day, it becomes more apparent that this attempted electric vehicle mandate is unrealistic based on current and forecasted customer demand. Already, electric vehicles are stacking up on our lots, which is our best indicator of customer demand in the marketplace.​

The inability of car dealers to sell EVs has not gone unnoticed. Over the summer, industry analysts at Cox Auto made plenty of headlines with data showing that new EV inventory was growing.

"EVs are selling three times as slow as [internal combustion engine] cars. And so dealers that were forced to make investments on the electrification space, forced to have floorplan financing against these cars, are suddenly running against 90–93 days of inventory turn vis-a-vis 31–32 days for the internal combustion cars. And that obviously is a real issue for them," said Jantoon Reigersman, COO at TrueCar.

"And then not only are EVs more expensive, but their own salespeople are untrained. They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get. A lot of them have 100–200 percent turnover of their sales staff in a given year," Reigersman told me.

Hefty dealership markups certainly haven't helped the perception of EVs being overpriced, either.

The complaints listed by the dealerships show familiar EV bugbears—poor charging infrastructure, the fact that batteries take longer to recharge than a gas tank takes to refill, and a loss of towing range.

Helpfully, the dealers published a complete list of the 3,882 signatories, making it very easy for people to see which businesses are opposing action on climate change. And I really have to ask: Why are four Polestar dealers included on this list?

Car dealers say they can’t sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout

The US already lags far behind China and Europe, but we're going too fast, dealers say.

arstechnica.com

 

[Obviously Oblivious]

The least surprising thing is that all varieties of pickup trucks continue to be the least reliable vehicles on the road. Yet the American consumer enthusiastically demands to overpay for the POS. Biggest profit margin in the industry.

I can understand if your job requires having one (utility van maybe a better option?) but I get the feeling that most are bought because of the image/lifestyle that these companies market to men very effectively.

 

[Funky Bunch]

All problems aren't the same. Fixing a problem with an over the air software update seems a lot better than making an appointment at a dealership.

 

[seminole97]

Also, I thought the draw to EVs was saving the darn planet, not our pocket books. Did that messaging somehow change and I missed the memo?

Low maintenance and reliability based on fewer moving parts is something I’ve heard touted more than once.

Few surprises in that ranking of manufacturers by problems, reads how I’d expect for their ICE fleets as well, which tells you its more about their processes than the platform.

Of note Tesla solidly middle pack, Mini eclipsing Honda/Acura, and Benz barely beating Chrysler.

 

[OrlandNole]

​

The poor reliability isn’t due to an inherent problem with EVs, but rather that the technology and parts to make them are new.

 

[Joes Place]

What I'm saying is they're not yet ready for prime time.

Which EV maker is lowest on the list for reliability?

Same one with most of the sales: Tesla.

 

[Joes Place]

So Tesla is more reliable than Chevy, Ford, Dodge, Lincoln, GMC, Chrysler and many more. Got it. Yea, I’ll stick with my almost maintenance free Tesla and fuel up for about $8.

Get an IONIQ

 

[ironside1]

Mercedes Benz rank is shocking

Is it? I’m more shocked with the Mini ranking. Their quality must have really improved.

 

[NoleATL]

“Internal combustion engine vehicles far more problematic than horses.”

I was thinking the same thing... time will help.

 

[LBoogie28]

Lexus/Toyota and Acura/Honda are certainly no surprise. Good on Kia and Hyundai.

 

[mnole03]

Lexus/Toyota and Acura/Honda are certainly no surprise. Good on Kia and Hyundai.

Mini is the wild story here. They were essentially a test bench for BMW. Both the i3 and i4 had tons of issues. The transmissions sucked. They had electrical problems. The turbo versions would tear through head gaskets. Five years ago they were bottom three in reliability.

 

[SolarHawk]

Is it? I’m more shocked with the Mini ranking. Their quality must have really improved.

I mean, I've never owned a Benz(nor have any ambition to), but I assumed German engineering and whatnot. I was also surprised to See BMW so high. I've owned a couple and had nothing but problems. YMMV

 

[EasyHawk]

Huge issue with heavy duty trucking. This is a good listen.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Pity the poor car dealers.

 

[abby97]

Also, I thought the draw to EVs was saving the darn planet, not our pocket books. Did that messaging somehow change and I missed the memo?

If you're only worried about the planet, don't drive at all.

 

[artradley]

The complaint that it takes too long to charge is the most frustrating one. People simple seem to lack the ability to quantify these things, or at least lack the initiative. The average American drives something like 15,000 miles per year. With a 30mpg vehicle that is 500 gallons of gas, which means at least forty trips to the gas station each year, along with two oil changes. Figure five hours each year that would be replaced with, what, five or six half hour stops at a charging station while on a long road trip? People don’t seem to grasp that those weekly trips to the gas station are eliminated.

And how many of you, or at least your significant other or child, frequently run the gas to near empty, thus sometimes experiencing “range anxiety” on a five mile trip with your ICE?

Fortunately, eventually a critical mass of consumers will figure it out.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

But they are. For daily drivers they’re superior to ICE in many ways.

Yep...my Model 3 is the perfect car for our commute.

 

[BioHawk]

Pity the poor car dealers. After making record profits in the wake of the pandemic and the collapse of just-in-time inventory chains, they're now complaining that selling electric vehicles is too hard. Almost 4,000 dealers from around the United States have sent an open letter to President Joe Biden calling for the government to slow down its plan to increase EV adoption between now and 2032.

Despite our robust economy, the US trails both Europe and China in terms of EV adoption. More and more car buyers are opting to go fully electric each year, although even a record 2023 will fail to see EV uptake reach double-digit percentages.

Mindful of the fact that transportation accounts for the largest segment of US carbon emissions and that our car-centric society encourages driving, the US Department of Energy published a proposed rule in April that would alter the way the government calculates each automaker's corporate average fuel efficiency. If adopted, the new rule would require OEMs to sell many more EVs to avoid large fines. This is in addition to an earlier goal from the White House that calls for one in two new cars sold in 2030 to be EVs.

And that's too ambitious, says the collection of car dealers, who say that new EVs are piling up on their forecourts and can't be sold:

Last year, there was a lot of hope and hype about EVs. Early adopters formed an initial line and were ready to buy these vehicles as soon as we had them to sell. But that enthusiasm has stalled. Today, the supply of unsold BEVs is surging, as they are not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships—even with deep price cuts, manufacturer incentives, and generous government incentives.​

​

While the goals of the regulations are admirable, they require consumer acceptance to become a reality. With each passing day, it becomes more apparent that this attempted electric vehicle mandate is unrealistic based on current and forecasted customer demand. Already, electric vehicles are stacking up on our lots, which is our best indicator of customer demand in the marketplace.​

The inability of car dealers to sell EVs has not gone unnoticed. Over the summer, industry analysts at Cox Auto made plenty of headlines with data showing that new EV inventory was growing.

"EVs are selling three times as slow as [internal combustion engine] cars. And so dealers that were forced to make investments on the electrification space, forced to have floorplan financing against these cars, are suddenly running against 90–93 days of inventory turn vis-a-vis 31–32 days for the internal combustion cars. And that obviously is a real issue for them," said Jantoon Reigersman, COO at TrueCar.

"And then not only are EVs more expensive, but their own salespeople are untrained. They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get. A lot of them have 100–200 percent turnover of their sales staff in a given year," Reigersman told me.

Hefty dealership markups certainly haven't helped the perception of EVs being overpriced, either.

The complaints listed by the dealerships show familiar EV bugbears—poor charging infrastructure, the fact that batteries take longer to recharge than a gas tank takes to refill, and a loss of towing range.

Helpfully, the dealers published a complete list of the 3,882 signatories, making it very easy for people to see which businesses are opposing action on climate change. And I really have to ask: Why are four Polestar dealers included on this list?

Car dealers say they can’t sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout

The US already lags far behind China and Europe, but we're going too fast, dealers say.

arstechnica.com

Oh look, an article that tries to blame the government for the switch to EV's. Nevermind that most (all?) major car manufacturers have committed to be an all electric line-up by 2035 so it's going to happen with or without the government making mandates. To be fair, this article isn't terrible, I just take issue with blaming government mandates for the issues they seem to be having.

The next generation of EV's should have 600-900 mile ranges. When that happens the single biggest reason people hesitate to go electric will be gone. Sure there are some other issues but these will be corrected the more experience we have with them.

 

[JRHawk2003]

The problem with tech in cars isnt an EV problem. its a detroit problem

I would love an EV with the controls of a 60's car.

 

[stout1]

The problem with tech in cars isnt an EV problem. its a detroit problem

I would love an EV with the controls of a 60's car.

I purchased a new to me used truck this summer. It is a 2021, but I bought a lower level model to avoid some of the superfluous electronics in the high end trims.

 

[JupiterHawk]

Not a shocking development as most EVs being sold today are in year 1 or 2 of their life. I would feel far more comfortable buying a mature Tesla Model 3/S vs being an early adopter of an F-150 EV.

 

[Joes Place]

Electric vehicles may be the future, but in some ways they look a lot like the past. Particularly reliability.

Get a Hyundai or Kia EV

They have the highest rankings among all/any EVs. Far fewer reliability issues than any Tesla model

Ioniq6 is on their list of "Recommended" models, with a rating of 83.
Ioniq5 is high 60s.

Kia EV6 rates 77
Kia Niro is 71 (as good as the highest-rated Tesla model)

Teslas are rated in the 50s-70 range (highest is the uber-pricey Model S at 71).

Ergo - Hyundai & Kia are currently MUCH better/more reliable EVs than most Tesla models.


Both have been making EVs longer than most US makers.
Hyundai has been making EVs since the 1990s
Kia has since around 2014/2015.

Both have far more experience in the EV markets than most others (aside from Tesla). And, unlike Tesla, they seem to have learned from that experience in making the more reliable current models.

 

[anon_b29nm7v7dwp6r]

I want to get an electric truck, but my current one has such low mileage….planning to let them work out all the issues and buy a refined model a few versions down the line.

This isn’t just an EV thing, new tech always follows this kind of curve. It’s like saying that early cars were much less reliable than a horse and buggy (they were…).

 

[The Tradition]

The next generation of EV's should have 600-900 mile ranges. When that happens the single biggest reason people hesitate to go electric will be gone. Sure there are some other issues but these will be corrected the more experience we have with them.

This.

I would be happy with 500+ miles (but 600+ would be better), and charging should absolutely not take more than 15 minutes. And there would have to be plentiful charging stations at nearly every interstate exit like we have with gas stations today.

Until then, I have no interest in an EV.

 

[Joes Place]

This.

I would be happy with 500+ miles (but 600+ would be better), and charging should absolutely not take more than 15 minutes.

Then maybe Toyota is where you should be focusing.

Which claims to have a "700 mile" vehicle in the works which will charge in "10 minutes", based on their proprietary solid-state batteries.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

This.

I would be happy with 500+ miles (but 600+ would be better), and charging should absolutely not take more than 15 minutes. And there would have to be plentiful charging stations at nearly every interstate exit like we have with gas stations today.

Until then, I have no interest in an EV.

Bigger take on the mileage reimbursement with an EV.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

The complaint that it takes too long to charge is the most frustrating one. People simple seem to lack the ability to quantify these things, or at least lack the initiative. The average American drives something like 15,000 miles per year. With a 30mpg vehicle that is 500 gallons of gas, which means at least forty trips to the gas station each year, along with two oil changes. Figure five hours each year that would be replaced with, what, five or six half hour stops at a charging station while on a long road trip? People don’t seem to grasp that those weekly trips to the gas station are eliminated.

And how many of you, or at least your significant other or child, frequently run the gas to near empty, thus sometimes experiencing “range anxiety” on a five mile trip with your ICE?

Fortunately, eventually a critical mass of consumers will figure it out.

I wouldn't want to take a long car trip with an EV because to me it's still rare to find chargers. I suppose you could look them up on the internet but there is certainly more effort put into finding them than finding a gas pump.

That said if I had the money for an EV, my daily commute to work and back and my occasional errands to get groceries or other things. It would be perfect for all of that.

 

[The Tradition]

I wouldn't want to take a long car trip with an EV because to me it's still rare to find chargers. I suppose you could look them up on the internet but there is certainly more effort put into finding them than finding a gas pump.

That said if I had the money for an EV, my daily commute to work and back and my occasional errands to get groceries or other things. It would be perfect for all of that.

It's my understanding that the Tesla navigation system will plan your route with charging stops in mind.

 

[DooBi]

I'd love to have an EV. It would be perfect for what I need.

 

[Joes Place]

It's my understanding that the Tesla navigation system will plan your route with charging stops in mind.

This the same "Tesla" which ranks rather low on the CR reliability rankings?

Which likely sends consumers to chargers that have long lines and creating greater frustration?