Cooper
- Thread starter MVPFAN
- Start date
The people comparing him to Lincoln were the ones sticking up for him after others were saying how disappointed they were.
It happens every time one of the wrestlers doesn't perform up to posters expectations. The same select few bash they guy and than are silent when proven wrong. I'm just saying we will know a lot more after midlands. I hope Cooper has a gas tank. He hasn't been good in that department and only he knows how hard he is working. It's your last chance Coop so I hope you are pushing yourself past your limits every day in the room.
I remember a lot of people saying the same thing I was. Which was wow Sorenson is going to be an animal. He absolutely went after Moreno with no fear. He went so hard in he wore himself out. With his AA finish as a freshman I'm pretty sure he learned his lesson.
I don't know what this means but he looked much better than we did the last time we saw him. Against MSU last year I believe.
You may be correct, I disagree that it wasn't stalling however.
"Stalling is defined as one or both wrestlers attempting to avoid wrestling action as an offensive or defensive strategy".
My interpretation of the above statement would lead me to believe there wasn't much "wrestling action" going on at the time. Marstellar was 100% without a doubt avoiding wrestling action as a strategy.
Aside from the fact it passes every eye test known to man to what stalling is in wrestling.
But none of that matters because it wasn't called so............................
Which is exactly what I said after his match. That has nothing to do with what I posted.
Copper shoe laces would be hard to get untied.....where can you buy copper shoe laces .
Oh, it sounded like you were comparing Sorenson's and Cooper's first dual. Then saying how people are unfairly judging Cooper after one match. Which I agree. And if some would have judged Sorenson's season off his first dual last year they would have been dead wrong.
I could see him growing a lot if he were a freshman. He's got some strengths--doubles--and some weaknesses--mat awareness--and he's unlikely to improve significantly in the final 4 months of a 5-year collegiate career. But I've been wrong before and I second your optimism, DonHawkeye.
I was as surprised as some others that Cooper did not immediately try to kick out when CM grabbed his leg from bottom. At that point it's either 5 seconds and he's free to continue the attack or CM is DQd.
When the match is on the line he needs to be able to make that decision himself. There is no need to wait for the coaches to dictate/initiate every action. I was very surprised that Cooper looked so lost as the match unfolded in the 3rd period. These scenarios are discussed and worked on in the room as part of normal preparations--right? This was a big mental error, which turned out costing Cooper the match. If it happens again, bench him.
When the match is on the line he needs to be able to make that decision himself. There is no need to wait for the coaches to dictate/initiate every action. I was very surprised that Cooper looked so lost as the match unfolded in the 3rd period. These scenarios are discussed and worked on in the room as part of normal preparations--right? This was a big mental error, which turned out costing Cooper the match. If it happens again, bench him.
Ok let's stop being so technical, good god. Technically it was his first dual after a summer of being fully committed to 157. I'm sure everyone remembers the 149 debacle last year. Was Sorenson's match against Moreno his first or did he technically wrestle at the Iowa duals. Sorry for trying to mislead sloe. I guess I should specify every non relevant detail before I post, in case you don't understand what is being said. Thanks for letting me know Cooper wrestled last year.
Not attempting t improve your position is stalling. Grabbing ankle and putting forehead on mat curled in a ball with elbows tucked to knees is NOT working towards a reversal or any improvement.
Cooper is not an elite college 157 lber and won't be in March. I see him getting some wins along the way and getting hammered by the top guys. He'll likely finish with a record around .500 or so. For the guys who think he's got a good shot an being an AA, tell me who from the following list you can honestly see him beating
Imar
Ian Miller
Nolf
Brascetta
Austin Matthews
Brian Murphy
Thomas Gantt
Dylan Palacio
Mitch Minotti
Tyler Berger
As much as I want to believe he's got a shot, none of those guys will gas like Marstellar.
Imar
Ian Miller
Nolf
Brascetta
Austin Matthews
Brian Murphy
Thomas Gantt
Dylan Palacio
Mitch Minotti
Tyler Berger
As much as I want to believe he's got a shot, none of those guys will gas like Marstellar.
Exactly Tarp! I wonder at times at the optimism of this board w certain under performing wrestlers. I get the "fan" part but objectivity is equally needed. Reminds me of early last year w "Iron Mike" and AA talk. I'll be pleasantly surprise if he score more then 4-5 pts at nationals
I'll just say I've never seen a guy on bottom get dinged for stalling while holding onto a leg. Was Cooper trying to improve his position? No, he was trying to get away. At best it could have been called a stalemate.
I stated what I considered to be a fact. Nothing more, nothing less. If you can't handle that, so be it.
Then i'm not sure you've seen a lot of wrestling - guy on bottom holding a leg, or arm/wrist, gets dinged with some frequency - especially when leading (not nearly enough in D1, but at all other levels of folk style). Regardless, it is not about what you've seen, but about what the rulebook and philosophy of the sport in general imposes on the match. Stalemates are when neither wrestler CAN IMPROVE a position without putting themselves in jeopardy as a result of the immediate move. There was NO DANGER/JEOPARDY for him to turn and face cooper and thereby score - in fact, it is an imperative that he do such. Now, if he would have worked to improve his position on the leg by moving up toward the hip, different story - but he didn't. This is NO DIFFERENT than riding the ankle in top position (and why that particular maneuver actually is an auto stall call after a given count). As for Cooper - yes he was trying to improve his position - the book allows the top man to "release his opponent for the intention of obtaining a takedown" and thereby gain advantage. Back in the day, releasing from the top position was considered a stall technique - now, it depends on what the top man does once neutral position is obtained.
My optimism meter moved the wrong direction after yesterday. The poor mat awareness and lack of finishing those wonderful doubles is concerning.
I'll just say this: a
- I've watched a lot of wrestling
- If holding a leg is "no different" than on the bottom guy than the top, why is there no 5-count on the bottom guy?
- The D1 official agreed with me
- Link to a match where bottom guy is dinged for stalling while holding a leg?
- Doesn't make the D1 official correct
- Yes, he is required to IMPROVE HIS POSITION (and definitely NOT place his forehead back on the mat and curl into a ball, elbows in - he was NOT trying to do anything with this so called "reversal postion" - i'm not even sure what that even is)
- Good question on the 5 count (not) - maybe it is because a wrestler in the inferior position is required to attempt to improve whereas the ankle held by the top man makes impedes the bottom from improving, while in this situation, the bottom kept himself from improving
- Read the book, wrestle some matches and be an official (I've been in lots of officials meetings where these things are discussed and then carried them out on the mat)
I don't think I'd ever play that card as part of my defense................................... they are uh, umm, uh, a bit soft on stalling..............
Movies an absolute guilty pleasure. I tried explaining to the wife one time how it's a good movie. She says," So it's about a bouncer who's an inexplicably trained badass that gets hired to clean up a bar that's too wild? Me: Yep, that's pretty much the movie. Then she went into the other room and watched the Notebook or the Devil Wears Prada or something. Seriously though, if you had Dalton's set of skills, you'd think you could make a better living that bouncing at a dive bar.
For the record, I was a wrestling official in NJ. And while the position was unusual, I don't believe you can deny you've seen bottom guys cling to a leg for long periods of time with no ability to improve position, but because the top guy is in danger of being reversed a stall is never called. The unique thing about this match was that Cooper no longer wanted to ride, he wanted to go to neutral.
The solution is to cut the guy before he's captured your leg, not to force the bottom guy to let go. It's wrong to blame that loss on the official.
I've not blamed the loss on the official. The loss is all on cooper - it was there for his to take. What i am commenting about is the lack of desire for d1 officials to call stalling - even in obvious situations . While yes i have seen many bottoms hang on a leg while officiating and watching, the difference is that the top was covering them at the time. If the top was ahead in points, u would not expect a stall call. However, i have seen the bottom dinged if ahead in this situation - i've also seen bottom grab the head, a wrist and "belly" it, as well as belly out with elbows in - all called IF they were not attempting to improve/score. This is not international style -attempting to score from bottom is required.
The critical aspect is as in the book. A failure to wrestle aggressively and work to improve. It is incumbent on the offi ial to immediately call stalling. Not a direct quote from the book but pretty close. This all comes down to my opinion that many d1 matches over thelast many years have been allowed to lapse into stalling as a method of controlling the match. As the rules stand now, this is not allowed and the officials at this level are frequently remiss in recognizing and calling stalling.
I absolutely agree that D1 officials don't call stalling enough. I just didn't think that situation was a slam-dunk stall call. Personally, recognizing the situation, I would have called it a stalemate.
Once it was apparent that neither guy was moving and improving position, a stalemate should have been called. Marsteller was stalling though and I would have been ok with that as well. Anything but watching them just sit there in that position for so long to end the match.
What is the expiration date on this situation any way?
