Taylor is a hard one to rank for me. His career win percentage and bonus percentage are the greatest parts of his resume but at the end of the day he didn't get it done on the big stage twice, and didn't beat the greatest competition to get his 2 titles. Win percentage can be deceiving because even though some guys took more losses than Taylor, they were taking them against better competition. Some of the guys on the list were also wrestling as true freshman and took losses during their freshman season that they would not have otherwise taken. If Taylor wrestled as a true freshman he might have had trouble just being an AA. I do think Taylor is probably in the top 50 but definitely not in the top 20. You could make an argument that guys like Alex Dieringer, Nick Gwiazdowski and Isaiah Martinez are on as high of a level as Taylor and those are 3 guys that are still wrestling, so top 20 definitely seems like a stretch. Heck even Gabe Dean might go 3, 1, 1, 1 while collecting a win over a 3x champ as a freshman.
Dake owns Taylor
- Thread starter WildTurk
- Start date
But you're in the top 100 for sure............at least on our board.
Thanks. I feels better now.
Why do you say Dake is possibly the second best ever? Why not possibly the best?
Dake is the first person to win four titles in four years of competition without a redshirt year. Dake is the only wrestler in NCAA history to win four national championships in four different weight classes. No other wrestler had previously won NCAA titles in more than two weight classes. And of course he owns David Taylor which is a bonus as well. Not saying any of this proves best ever - but certainly puts him in the conversation for it.
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Metcalf won the most difficult bracket in college wrestling history his sophomore year.
This brings a question for everyone on here. Is Metcalf a top 20, top 40, top 50 guy? Where does he fall in for all time greats?
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Most difficult ever? It was a tough bracket but most difficult ever might I'm not sure on.
The real question is, was it in the top 20 toughest brackets ever? I can say for sure that it WAS in the top 50 toughest bracket ever. If I recall in 1921 there was a really tough bracket that, at the time mind you, was referred to as the bracket of the century. Now in that bracket...... on second though, let me take this over to the Grothus thread, because that is currently competing to be in the top 10 threads of all time, well maybe not top 10...
Metcalf's 2008 bracket was ridiculous...his B1G bracket that year was absolutely loaded as well
Edit: Here's a good ESPN article that previewed the B1G bracket that year
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/news/story?id=3277633
Edit: Here's a good ESPN article that previewed the B1G bracket that year
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/news/story?id=3277633
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Obviously there will always be a debate - and maybe you want to use a different word than 'difficult' -- but Metcalf's 2008 bracket had Burroughs, Jenkins, Caldwell, Schlatter, O'Connor, Palmer, and Churella. That's 6 guys who won championships (including Metcalf) and 2 more who were finalists.
I'd love to see a bracket more loaded than that one.
It's never been an easy road for Metcalf. He had Schlatter in High School. An absurdly loaded weight class throughout his College career.
Now he's in the most loaded freestyle weight class domestically (Kennedy, JO, Streebler) and very probably internationally (Chamizo, Mohammadi) in 65kg.
He always finds a way to come out on top of the heap though.
Now he's in the most loaded freestyle weight class domestically (Kennedy, JO, Streebler) and very probably internationally (Chamizo, Mohammadi) in 65kg.
He always finds a way to come out on top of the heap though.
You could definitely make the argument, but hard to beat an undefeated 4 timer in terms of college accomplishments. Also, Cael was much more dominant in terms of bonus points.
That's an opinion - not a fact. Going undefeated is an amazing accomplishment - but you have to pull back the curtain and look at the entire body of work. For example - would Sanderson have been an undefeated 4-timer if he didn't redshirt? And thus - my contention is that I believe it's wrong to only consider Dake in the argument for 2nd best -- in my opinion it's not settled. I'd bet a large sum of money we'll see another undefeated wrestler before we see someone win 4 different weight classes again. Especially from a wrestler in the middle weights who didn't redshirt. Many wrestlers have come close to undefeated careers (or did so for 3 years) -- but nobody else has come close to winning 4 different weight classes.
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Here is Mike Chapman's top 15 list - written in 2010 (before Dake and Streebler).
No. 1 – Cael Sanderson, Iowa State — It’s been eight years since Cael Sanderson completed the greatest collegiate wrestling career of all time. He was an incredible 159-0, winning four NCAA titles, four Outstanding Wrestler (O.W.) awards, and earning the Dan Hodge Trophy three times. Sanderson’s achievement was so remarkable that Sports Illustrated, which generally pays very little attention to college wrestling, ranked it the second greatest college performance of all time. This one isn’t even close — it’s Cael Sanderson in a runaway!
No. 2. Dan Hodge, University of Oklahoma — Dan was 46-0 with 36 pins, including 24 in a row at one point. He won two O.W. awards at the NCAA tournament and was never taken down his entire college career. He never had a close match. He pinned his way through the NCAAs in 1956 and then pinned every foe in both the national freestyle and Greco-Roman tournament a few weeks later. So remarkable was his career that Sports Illustrated put him on the cover of its April 1, 1957, issue and he remains to this day the only wrestler so honored by the nation’s top sports periodical.
No. 3. Yojiro Uetake, Oklahoma State University — He was 58-0 and was given two O.W. awards at the NCAA tournament. He was the perfect blend of quickness, skill, technique and mental toughness. Rumors are that he was never taken down in college or never had a close match and neither is quite true, but he was never in danger of losing at any time. Yojiro was so good in college that he won an Olympic gold medal for his native Japan after his sophomore year at Oklahoma State.
No. 4. Bill Koll, Iowa State Teachers College – Returning to campus life after seeing action in World War II (like many college athletes of that era), Koll was a man on a mission. He was 45-0 at Iowa State Teachers College (now UNI) and was feared far and wide for his ferocious style of wrestling. He was the first wrestler to win two O.W. awards at the NCAAs and was a pinning machine.
No. 5. Dan Gable, Iowa State University – His focus and dedication are legendary even outside the sport. He was 118-1 at Iowa State, losing in the NCAA finals his senior year (1970) in the biggest upset in wrestling history. He won 181 straight high school and college matches and once pinned 24 foes in a row. Though freshmen were not eligible his first year, he won the very tough Midlands tournament by beating an NCAA champion in the finals and was named O.W. He is the highest wrestler on the list with a loss.
No. 6. Gray Simons, Lock Haven State – Wrestling at 115 pounds, he claimed an all-time record of seven national titles in college (four at the NAIA level and three at the NCAA level) and he was the O.W. in those seven meets an amazing six times. Simons never lost after early in his freshman year and won his last 84 matches in a row. Many in his era believe he was the finest technician they ever saw.
No. 7. Lee Kemp, University of Wisconsin — After being NCAA runner-up as a pure freshman, losing to a great senior (Chuck Yagla of Iowa) in overtime, Kemp was 110-1-1 his final three seasons and won three NCAA titles at 158 pounds. He had superb strength, quickness and mat position and was almost impossible to score on. His overall record was 143-6-1, but five of the losses came in his first season, just one year out of high school.
No. 8. Stanley Henson, Oklahoma State — Some “old timers” say Stan was the best pure wrestler ever. Henry Wittenberg, 1948 Olympic champion, told me he had never seen such skilled wrestling. Henson was so slick that people often overlook the fact that he was also very strong (from working in the Oklahoma oil fields) and mentally tough. His only loss came when he wrestled up a weight as a sophomore (against Oklahoma’s Bill Keas) but he defeated Keas in a rematch despite suffering a dislocated shoulder in the bout. Henson won three NCAA titles and was O.W. as a sophomore in 1937, and probably would have been the next two years, as well, but voters were reluctant at that time to give it to the same wrestler more than once.
No. 9. Pat Smith, Oklahoma State — Winning the NCAA championship as a pure freshman, Smith was a marked man from there on and overcame tremendous pressure to become the first four-time NCAA champion ever. He compiled a career record of 121-5-2, going his last 98 matches in a row without a loss, including his fourth title at 158 pounds, in 1994. Like Kemp, he never lost after his freshman year despite being under tremendous pressure.
No. 10. Carlton Haselrig, Pitt Johnstown — He won six NCAA titles, an incredible feat that will most likely never be matched. Competing at heavyweight, he won three Division II national titles and then proceeded to win three Division I titles. He posted a record of 143-2-1 and went through his last 123 matches in a row without a loss. An indication of his superb athletic skill is that he played for the Pittsburgh Steelers of the NFL without playing college football.
No. 11. Buddy Arndt, Oklahoma State – Hardly anyone seems to know it, but Buddy Arndt reportedly never lost a match in high school or college! After winning two state titles at Tulsa Central he won two NCAA titles at Oklahoma A&M, then left for World War II. He flew over 100 combat missions in the war — then returned to win his third NCAA title in 1946. He is the only wrestler to win NCAA titles on both sides of World War II, before and after. He never lost a scholastic match. Bill Koll told me personally he thought Buddy Arndt might have been the best wrestler he ever saw.
No. 12 Jack VanBebber, Oklahoma State – Undefeated in three seasons at Oklahoma A&M, VanBebber is the first three-time NCAA champion to win a gold medal in the Olympics, which came one year after his senior year (1931). He was such a star in his era that in 1950 the Associated Press selected him as one of the top 10 amateur athletes in the first half of the century, an amazing tribute for a wrestler.
(The only reason Arndt and VanBebber aren’t higher on the list is due to the fact that they wrestled far less matches than did wrestlers 50 years later and, hence, had far less opportunities to suffer an upset or fluke loss.)
No. 13. Lincoln McIlravy, University of Iowa — Winning the NCAA title as a pure freshman puts Lincoln in a very elite group of great wrestlers. He wound up his career with four trips to the finals and three championships, and was the complete wrestler, possessing superb skills, endurance, strength and mental toughness. His overall record at Iowa was 98-3, two of those losses coming as a pure freshman.
No. 14. Rick Sanders, Portland State — A man of unbelievable talents, Sanders was 103-2 in college, winning five national collegiate titles on three levels. He won two NCAA titles and finished second as a senior in a shocking upset (to Dwayne Keller of Oklahoma State). Very few wresters could match his skill level and his unorthodox style of wrestling. Sanders had a large percentage of pins and often scored in double figures.
TIE # 15. Keith Young, Iowa State Teachers College — Probably the most overlooked college wrestler ever, Young won three NCAA championships for Iowa State Teachers College and was undefeated his entire college career. (As an indication of how tough he was, he also won thee national freestyle titles during the same period.) In addition, he was the only wrestler to ever defeat Lowell Lange, another three-time champion, during Lange’s great career.
TIE # 15. Lowell Lange, Cornell College – He was NCAA champion as a true freshman for Cornell College and wound up with three titles. Had he not missed his entire sophomore season due to an auto accident, he probably would have become the sport’s first four-time champion. As a junior, he handily defeated the defending NCAA champion who had won when Lange was out for the year. Lange finished with a career mark of 46-1, his only loss coming when he moved up a weight to battle Keith Young.
Special mention: I said at the outset I would not get into “what ifs” but there are three cases — one due to a horrible injury and two because of an eligibility mix-up — that simply must be addressed.
The hyperextension of Randy Lewis’s elbow during a match his final season (1981) was the worst injury I ever saw in 40 years of following college wrestling. If not for that injury, Lewis could well have made the list. He was NCAA runnerup as a pure freshman, undefeated NCAA champion as a sophomore and moved up a weight as a junior to beat the defending NCAA champion, Darryl Burley of Lehigh, a great champion in his own right. (Lewis also made the 1980 Olympic team while still in college.)
Riding an 81-match winning streak, Lewis blew his elbow out midway through his senior year and still came back to place seventh, basically wrestling with one arm.
http://www.win-magazine.com/2010/11/my-all-time-greatest-college-wrestlers/
I never stated it was a fact. Definitely my opinion, but one I think most people would agree with.
I agree the no redshirt and 4 different weights put Dake right up there. That is why I have him at 2 ahead of other 4 timers. Also, that is why I said you can make a case for Dake #1 because of all those things.
The weight class changes doesn't add much to his accomplishments for me. It is cool, but it is a result of him growing, and not some accomplishment that proves wrestling ability. Cael and Steiber both won titles at multiple weights. I have little doubt that had they grown more they would have won at another weight class.
Granted these guys might not have the titles that Metcalf's bracket has but I would say that getting through these brackets might have been just as tough.
2007-Schlatter, Gillespie, Leen, O'Connor, Churella, Palmer, Burroughs
Brands, Kelber, Cross, and Knight in 90
Cross, martin, brands and kelber in 89
1998-Teague moore, david morgan, eric jurgens, Stephen abas, Jeremy hunter, cody sanderson,
1996-Mena, Sheldon Thomas, David Morgan, Jason Nurre, Teague Moore, Lindsay Durlacher,
1996-Sanshiro Abe, Dwight Hinson, McGinness, Eric Gurreo
During the 90s there were some great brackets.. No matter what it's fun to go back and look at some of those old brackets just to see some of the names. National wrestling hall of fame website has them all the way back to the 1920s.
There was one more finalist in that 2008 bracket - Ryan Lang from Northwestern. That was an insane bracket. Adam Hall was in there too. That's 12 deep with championship caliber wrestlers.
This is mind boggling to me. Sure debate who is number 1, but saying that winning 4 different weight classes, when no one has won 3, doesn't add much to his accomplishments is insane.
Not that it matters for college results, but that bracket also added world/olympic, jr world, and mma titles. Just a bunch of stud athletes.
I'm with you. When you consider what happened to Nate Carr when he wrestled Zalesky (and many similar stories exist) - you realize how incredibly difficult it can be to move up one weight. But moving up 3 weights - and the last year doing so to take on David Taylor - truly incredible.
It would be awesome if someone like Chapman could have gone back and found the most difficult brackets. It would be a great debate - and fun to read.
And speaking of Burroughs in 2007 - I can't believe he was only 16-13 on the season. Talk about a wrestling who improved...
He moved up because his body was bigger. He wasn't undersized at any weight he wrestled. It doesn't add anything to the accomplishment for me either
That one caught me by shock too. I honestly laughed when I saw it. To think he was basically a .500 wrestler and became what he is now should is just mind blowing. The 08 bracket is amazing when you look at it. I am not saying it's not the toughest, heck I am not sure that there is such thing as an easy NCAA bracket. Some are just less stacked than others. I hadn't realized that the hall of fame had the old ones out there till a couple months ago. It's fun to look back at some of them and remember how great some of those matches were. Few that brought back some gut wrenching losses for memories too. But either way it's fun to look back through.
Well I guess he was some sort of freak grower unlike any wrestler in the history of college wrestling!
I will give Dake extra credit for going up a weight class his senior year to challenge DT. I am sure he could have stayed at 157 and won it, but he went up a weight class to win it all at 4 different weight classes. Took the hard road and did it. Doesn't make him the best wrestler of all times, but I definitely admire the kahoonas he had to do it.
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Agree. It is appropriate to "pull back the curtain" and evaluate everything.
By comparing someone who redshirted and then went undefeated to someone who didn't redshirt, one can say Cael surpasses Dake and everyone else. But throw Cael in to ncaa competition without the RS, and there is a good chance he would've not been a 4 timer. We already know he suffered a loss to Jenn. By that argument Dake surpasses Cael. And possibly others would be ahead of Cael as well - Uetake, Gable, Hodge.
It all depends how you evaluate things, and there are plenty of apples and oranges comparisons when talking about a guy who RS'd and another who didn't, as well as comparing what guys did in the earlier eras with today's.
You guys can argue stats all you want. I'm going with the eye test and I have Brody Grothus as #1 all-time. The man is a machine.
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I would point out that Burroughs, like Dake, had no RS season after HS. Which again reinforces the idea that a RS season can be a tremendous aid to improvement, improving the W/L stats generally, and something that both Cael and Taylor benefitted from.
Man, do I ever hope Brent finds a way to come out on top of the heap in Rio. Getting there, alone, won't be a walk in the park, though, and he'll have his hands more than full if/when he gets there. I'd never bet against Brent, but he's a long shot for Olympic gold, considering his struggles internationally over the past several years. Really, really, REALLY hope he gets it done, for his sake more than anything.
People can't play both sides of the redshirt argument.
Present: "Well he should redshirt. Spend a year in the room, improve technique, a year in the weight room, get used to his academic responsibilities ...."
Hindsight:" Oh, well, his accomplishments are overrated - he took a redshirt his freshmen year."
LMFAO. So which is it ?
A wrestler's legacy shouldn't be penalized by a redshirt, because he did what he needed to do to improve himself and help his team more in the long run.
Present: "Well he should redshirt. Spend a year in the room, improve technique, a year in the weight room, get used to his academic responsibilities ...."
Hindsight:" Oh, well, his accomplishments are overrated - he took a redshirt his freshmen year."
LMFAO. So which is it ?
A wrestler's legacy shouldn't be penalized by a redshirt, because he did what he needed to do to improve himself and help his team more in the long run.
Your not wrong. The point is that Smith and Dake did not redshirt. To be talented enough to hit the ground running is impressive. Cael lost as a rs and Taylor lost 2 or 3 as a rs. That extra year does a lot which is why you see guys like brands resist it. In this discussion it does not diminish the accomplishment of one rather brings high praise to the champions who did not red shirt. It is impressive. Had Cael not redshirted he would not have been u defeated. His loss or losses the rs year prove that. Irrelevant. He was a great champion.
Objectively if all things are equal, the guy without the rs would have the edge. Personally, losses don't separate guys much. 4 years on the starting team and have could/few losses but we're still 3 or 4 time champion is incredible. Being undefeated does put Cael in good company.
I keep saying it but even in an old era, hodge not giving up a takedown, let alone a match, is dominance.
Hodge was phenomenal, but much less impressive wrestlers have also managed not to give up a takedown throughout the regular season and up to the finals of Nationals. Take Mack Lewnes, for example. He wasn't taken down once until he ran into Jay Borschel in the finals. Jay then proceeded to take him down multiple times and ride him relentlessly in a dominant NCAA Finals win.
I think Lewnes' streak probably had something to do with limited competition. Ivy League guys can go through a season without running into a lot of studs. Lewnes was great, but he was nowhere near consideration for anything close to the all-time greats, and he came one match away from going an entire season without giving up a takedown.
I think Lewnes' streak probably had something to do with limited competition. Ivy League guys can go through a season without running into a lot of studs. Lewnes was great, but he was nowhere near consideration for anything close to the all-time greats, and he came one match away from going an entire season without giving up a takedown.
