Defense

[BrotherHawkeye]

How hard is it to learn how to play defense? Not how hard is it to play defense - that is very hard. But to learn how to do it - that doesn’t seem like it would be that hard.

For Iowa, is it they haven’t learned how to do it? Or is it a lack of effort? Or forbid - both?

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

Where or when did I ever say that? I’m just trying to promote NEW discourse instead of the same tired conversations about Fran’s defense.

Okay, I understand what you’re trying to do now.

My only point was defense is about effort and accountability. Iowa is no more or less athletic than they have been most years under Fran. There has to be a strong cultural shift in addition to a change in personnel in order for meaningful changes to manifest. I just don’t ever see a defensive-minded culture ever being established under Fran.

I apologize for disrupting your thread. It wasn’t my intention to derail it. I sincerely hope your cautious optimism comes to fruition.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

How hard is it to learn how to play defense? Not how hard is it to play defense - that is very hard. But to learn how to do it - that doesn’t seem like it would be that hard.

For Iowa, is it they haven’t learned how to do it? Or is it a lack of effort? Or forbid - both?

It’s about effort and accountability.

 

[RocknRollface]

With Woody/Gessell/Clemmons teams that did well defensively, Fran played mostly 100% . Those were teams of upper class men and size/communication (woody) and shot blocking Baer/Uthoff. Those were decent defensive squads, but they got absolutely woodshed beaten in NCAA tourney vs Gonzaga and Villanova in consecutive years.

I think the game has continued to evolve since 2015/2016 with even more 3pt shooting and eventually Fran had to admit that playing mostly zone was recipe for disaster when teams get hot from 3pt line. It is harder to defensive rebound when you are in zone so that even if you can hold teams to poor shooting percentage, if you are collecting 10% fewer defensive rebounds it is a wash at best. I think we've seen more man out of Fran the last couple years and we are more athletic. Extending the press and dropping back in zone looks nice at times when we are generating turnovers but not so nice when we get burned for layups or wide open 3pt shots. Pushing the pace isn't a recipe for defensive success and Fran teams nearly always lead the B1G in scoring. Too bad that high scoring hasn't translated into more success in recruiting. Yes, complaining about Fran's defensive philosophy has been well discussed and the lack of post season success which seems corelated with lack of defensive prowess has also been discussed.

I do think Pryce is >> Payton at defense. Payton does rebound well for his earthbound game. I'm guessing we are headed for borderline NCAA tourney qualifying type team.

The Woodbury teams played more man than zone.

That's why Woodbury was always out past the 3pt line hedging on screens.

What made those teams better than a typical Fran tean is that they did effectively defend screens while all other Fran teams struggle with it.

Fran doesn't practice defense enough for his teams to be cohesive on that end. The Woody- Gessel tandem had already developed their chemistry prior to arriving at Iowa.

Woodbury was also basically running the defensive end for those teams. Frans only good defensive teams were with AW.

 

[RocknRollface]

How hard is it to learn how to play defense? Not how hard is it to play defense - that is very hard. But to learn how to do it - that doesn’t seem like it would be that hard.

For Iowa, is it they haven’t learned how to do it? Or is it a lack of effort? Or forbid - both?

It's both.

Defense requires 5 guys on the same page communicating. This is where Iowa usually falls way short.

Fran also tries to do different things on defense which adds to the confusion. Good defensive teams generally do the same thing every game because it's less complicated.

 

[eyesofhawk]

Obviously, our defense is not where it needs to be. Early season game, it’s understandable. But also predictable under Fran. That said, I feel like our team defense has potential for improvement. A couple take aways::

Josh Dix continues to be our best man defender. He’s versatile and that’s going to be crucial because every great defense needs that one guy that can lock down a scorer. He can do that.

People are going to laugh, but Pryce Sandfort is a pretty good defender. Much better than his brother, he moves his feet and can stay in front of guys his size. And he’s long enough to be disruptive even if you get by him. Had a nice block.

Brock Harding is never going to be a consistent plus defender, but he’s very disruptive. He forced 3 turnovers, and I’m not sure if that includes where he got someone to miss a a last second shot because he altered their rhythm. He would have had a 4th steal at mid court, but tripped over his own feet. He also had two blocked shots, although only credited for one.

Drew Thiewell is just what the doctor ordered. Great anticipation and smart defender. I want to see more.

Negatives: Payton is still an awful defender, routinely gets beat. Dembele has slow feet and needs to work on rebounding position. He gets away with a lot of reaching, but that wasn’t working last night with quicker players.

Why would Harding never be a consistent plus defender?

Plenty of quicks and plays his ass off

 

[AmericaNeedsMe]

How hard is it to learn how to play defense? Not how hard is it to play defense - that is very hard. But to learn how to do it - that doesn’t seem like it would be that hard.

For Iowa, is it they haven’t learned how to do it? Or is it a lack of effort? Or forbid - both?

It's not some inherent flaw in Fran's basketball philosophy or ability to teach, lack of effort or lack of accountability or toughness etc. It's mostly personnel.

For instance, in order for Iowa to have a chance of competing, Payton Sandfort HAS to be on the floor. Period. The rub is, he's very limited athletically (see his NBA testing metrics oof!). He can have all of the effort and accountability and toughness in the world and he's never going to be even close to a lock down defender at the high major level. Physics is physics, folks. There's no place to hide him defensively. It's going to be the same story -- limited by size and/or athleticism -- for the majority of our roster. This has been the case for most (not all) of Fran's tenure because, unfortunately, recruiting is comparatively limited at Iowa.

The truth is Fran is playing the smartest basketball possible for the types of players he can successfully recruit to Iowa. Further, Fran has demonstrated that he indeed CAN field solid defensive teams when he has the right personnel to do so. Give Fran a roster like Illinois or Michigan e.g., with length and athleticism at every position, and I guarantee you he would have a top 30 defense.

 

[Mohawkeye]

Why would Harding never be a consistent plus defender?

Plenty of quicks and plays his ass off

Mostly due to his size.

 

[BrewHawk]

It's not some inherent flaw in Fran's basketball philosophy or ability to teach, lack of effort or lack of accountability or toughness etc. It's mostly personnel.

For instance, in order for Iowa to have a chance of competing, Payton Sandfort HAS to be on the floor. Period. The rub is, he's very limited athletically (see his NBA testing metrics oof!). He can have all of the effort and accountability and toughness in the world and he's never going to be even close to a lock down defender at the high major level. Physics is physics, folks. There's no place to hide him defensively. It's going to be the same story -- limited by size and/or athleticism -- for the majority of our roster. This has been the case for most (not all) of Fran's tenure because, unfortunately, recruiting is comparatively limited at Iowa.

The truth is Fran is playing the smartest basketball possible for the types of players he can successfully recruit to Iowa. Further, Fran has demonstrated that he indeed CAN field solid defensive teams when he has the right personnel to do so. Give Fran a roster like Illinois or Michigan e.g., with length and athleticism at every position, and I guarantee you he would have a top 30 defense.

...and fortunately (for them), ISU can recruit good, athletic defensive players.

It's not a location problem, it's a coach problem.

 

[eyesofhawk]

Mostly due to his size.

I just don't buy it.

Brock gives resistance at the point of attack, so teams aren't going to be able to take advantage of his size like they did JBo

 

[ObeseMuffins]

Does anyone have a link to the first game?

 

[AmericaNeedsMe]

I just don't buy it.

Brock gives resistance at the point of attack, so teams aren't going to be able to take advantage of his size like they did JBo

"resistance at the point of attack" lol

Cool story.

My suggestion -- watch and see if your lying eyes can convince you.

 

[jonesy5960]

"resistance at the point of attack" lol

Cool story.

My suggestion -- watch and see if your lying eyes can convince you.

1-0.

Signed,

Eyesofhawk

 

[AmericaNeedsMe]

...and fortunately (for them), ISU can recruit good, athletic defensive players.

It's not a location problem, it's a coach problem.

If I'm being completely honest, for Iowa....it's a fan problem.

Iowa basketball fans have demonstrated that they will continue to support mediocre results indefinitely. This is slowly changing but that 36 months of lickliter really did a number on the fan base. Most will support middle of the pack performance forever rather than risk another lickliter trauma. The administration has had zero incentive to risk a coaching change.

I suspect that Fran is off to Indiana after this season. Should be an exciting time full of oportunity after that.

 

[BrewHawk]

If I'm being completely honest, for Iowa....it's a fan problem.

Iowa basketball fans have demonstrated that they will continue to support mediocre results indefinitely. This is slowly changing but that 36 months of lickliter really did a number on the fan base. Most will support middle of the pack performance forever rather than risk another lickliter trauma. The administration has had zero incentive to risk a coaching change.

I suspect that Fran is off to Indiana after this season. Should be an exciting time full of oportunity after that.

We can only hope.

 

[RocknRollface]

...and fortunately (for them), ISU can recruit good, athletic defensive players.

It's not a location problem, it's a coach problem.

To play great defense you do need athletes but all you have to do is watch NW play defense to understand that you don't need great athletes to play good defense.

Iowa plays defense the way they do because of what they practice.

 

[AmericaNeedsMe]

To play great defense you do need athletes but all you have to do is watch NW play defense to understand that you don't need great athletes to play good defense.

Iowa plays defense the way they do because of what they practice.

Do you think if Collins coached our players instead of his that he would have more than 3 tourney appearances in 11 years?

Me either.

 

[RocknRollface]

Do you think if Collins coached our players instead of his that he would have more than 3 tourney appearances in 11 years?

Me either.

It's certainly possible but not important to my point which was coaching has a significant impact on how a team plays defense.

 

[BrewHawk]

Do you think if Collins coached our players instead of his that he would have more than 3 tourney appearances in 11 years?

Me either.

I know that Collins could recruit better at Iowa than he has at Northwestern.

 

[Bank of Hawk]

The individual player has to dedicate time outside of practice to work on their defense. Garza, Woodbury took pride in their defense but they also worked their tails off to do so and required self motivation to get there.

 

[DanHawkPella]

Defensive rebounding appears to be an issue. I thought with Traore and Tadjo being added that we might be better here, but with neither playing in the last game the rebounding was very very poor. If they can't defend or defensive rebound that bodes very poorly. Hopefully Dembele and Freeman at minimum can do better moving forward - just not physical enough down low.

 

[shanksit44]

I appreciate the sentiment but I feel this angle has been discussed ad nauseum. I’m curious as to what people think about this team and these players, from a defensive perspective, without the Fran slant.

Too early. If it’s anything like the past……….it’ll be painful to watch.

🤞🏻it’s improved.

 

[RocknRollface]

Defensive rebounding appears to be an issue. I thought with Traore and Tadjo being added that we might be better here, but with neither playing in the last game the rebounding was very very poor. If they can't defend or defensive rebound that bodes very poorly. Hopefully Dembele and Freeman at minimum can do better moving forward - just not physical enough down low.

Rebounding should improve with Traore, that was one of his biggest strengths. I don't think we're going to see much of Tadjo this year, I hope he can at least pass up Brauns.

I also expect Freeman and Dembele to play with more effort against better competition.

 

[BrewHawk]

Rebounding should improve with Traore, that was one of his biggest strengths. I don't think we're going to see much of Tadjo this year, I hope he can at least pass up Brauns.

I also expect Freeman and Dembele to play with more effort against better competition.

Tadjo looked "small."

 

[Bulldogs1974]

I was left unimpressed and disappointed by Ladji last night. Beginning of the second half he was caught out on the wing on defense more than once and it led to easy baskets on a drive. Thankfully after his third foul Fran used him as the backup 5 instead where he belongs.

He was a noticeably better defender at the start of the season last year. It's almost like the more time you spend with fran the worse you become defensively.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

It's not some inherent flaw in Fran's basketball philosophy or ability to teach, lack of effort or lack of accountability or toughness etc. It's mostly personnel.

For instance, in order for Iowa to have a chance of competing, Payton Sandfort HAS to be on the floor. Period. The rub is, he's very limited athletically (see his NBA testing metrics oof!). He can have all of the effort and accountability and toughness in the world and he's never going to be even close to a lock down defender at the high major level. Physics is physics, folks. There's no place to hide him defensively. It's going to be the same story -- limited by size and/or athleticism -- for the majority of our roster. This has been the case for most (not all) of Fran's tenure because, unfortunately, recruiting is comparatively limited at Iowa.

The truth is Fran is playing the smartest basketball possible for the types of players he can successfully recruit to Iowa. Further, Fran has demonstrated that he indeed CAN field solid defensive teams when he has the right personnel to do so. Give Fran a roster like Illinois or Michigan e.g., with length and athleticism at every position, and I guarantee you he would have a top 30 defense.

is this post for real or is it satire?

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

I watched much of the last game from the link provided in another thread. Iowa'a defense and rebounding was not very good, considering the competition. I tried to watch Dembele and Freeman when they were on the court together, and so far, they (or the coaches) haven't figured out how to allow them to play well together. On offense, Iowa seems to have Dembele mostly standing on the wing, probably to open up room for Freeman around the basket, but making it difficult for him to be an offensive rebounder. On defense, Dembele seems to be more passive when playing with Freeman, again almost like he is trying not to get in Owen's way. I think Dembele can be a very good defender in the area around the basket, guarding players that spend most of their time there. He doesn't have the quickness to guard smaller players away from the basket. I am not sure how this can be corrected, but I think it is at least partly a coaching problem and how he is being used. Dembele needs to be used as an aggressive presence near the basket to be effective, especially on defense. He has a pretty nice stroke from 3, but otherwise, he isn't much use away from the basket on either end.

 

[twindman]

I don't know why people think he is good at the 3pt. Last year he was 31%. I couldn't figure out how to look at his stats game by game, so maybe he was improving?????

 

[jonesy5960]

He was a noticeably better defender at the start of the season last year. It's almost like the more time you spend with fran the worse you become defensively.

Honestly, I thought he was terrible defensively last year. Consistently lost. In short, he seemed to pick up Fran's defense quickly.

 

[AmericaNeedsMe]

I know that Collins could recruit better at Iowa than he has at Northwestern.

Because of fewer academic restrictions...sure.

 

[AmericaNeedsMe]

is this post for real or is it satire?

It's real.

Fran is not stupid. If you are unable to consistently recruit at the top of the league, there are a few ways to remain competitive. One is to limit possessions -- the Wisconsin way. The other is to put shooters everywhere on the floor and try to outscore every team. 3 star catch and shoot shooters ain't playing lock down D, and they ain't dominating the glass.

If Fran had a .500 record playing buckyball after 15 years, do you really think there would be anyone left in the stands? Me either.

 

[Hawksfinal4]

I watched much of the last game from the link provided in another thread. Iowa'a defense and rebounding was not very good, considering the competition. I tried to watch Dembele and Freeman when they were on the court together, and so far, they (or the coaches) haven't figured out how to allow them to play well together. On offense, Iowa seems to have Dembele mostly standing on the wing, probably to open up room for Freeman around the basket, but making it difficult for him to be an offensive rebounder. On defense, Dembele seems to be more passive when playing with Freeman, again almost like he is trying not to get in Owen's way. I think Dembele can be a very good defender in the area around the basket, guarding players that spend most of their time there. He doesn't have the quickness to guard smaller players away from the basket. I am not sure how this can be corrected, but I think it is at least partly a coaching problem and how he is being used. Dembele needs to be used as an aggressive presence near the basket to be effective, especially on defense. He has a pretty nice stroke from 3, but otherwise, he isn't much use away from the basket on either end.

Well observed by you imo

 

[BrewHawk]

Because of fewer academic restrictions...sure.

That, and Northwestern has historically sucked at basketball.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

I don't know why people think he is good at the 3pt. Last year he was 31%. I couldn't figure out how to look at his stats game by game, so maybe he was improving?????

That would make him a permanent starter if his last name was mccaffery or ogelsby.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

It's real.

Fran is not stupid. If you are unable to consistently recruit at the top of the league, there are a few ways to remain competitive. One is to limit possessions -- the Wisconsin way. The other is to put shooters everywhere on the floor and try to outscore every team. 3 star catch and shoot shooters ain't playing lock down D, and they ain't dominating the glass.

If Fran had a .500 record playing buckyball after 15 years, do you really think there would be anyone left in the stands? Me either.

You act as though he’s played with no talent. He had 3 nba players on the same team.

 

[AmericaNeedsMe]

You act as though he’s played with no talent. He had 3 nba players on the same team.

If you average the talent over his 15 years, it's been about 10th in the league.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

If you average the talent over his 15 years, it's been about 10th in the league.

I was unaware high school rankings determined college success.

 

[TRHawkeye145]

Defense still blows. Discuss

 

[Bank of Hawk]

They’ll watch some film and clean some things up

 

[St. Louis Hawk]

That’s basketball.