Democracy will die if the electoral college isn t abandoned

[sadiehawkins]

With dems winning popular vote every yr. This isn t sustainable for Republicans. The rich are trying to squeeze a couple more cycles before the dam breaks. We are basically a dictatorship now with minority rule and Supreme courts being crazy right leaning. There are what 6 states that decide the election now. Let's make it equal for all. One vote counts the same in all states. VOTE THE HATERS OUT.

 

[FlickShagwell]

 

[Titanhawk2]

With dems winning popular vote every yr. This isn t sustainable for Republicans. The rich are trying to squeeze a couple more cycles before the dam breaks. We are basically a dictatorship now with minority rule and Supreme courts being crazy right leaning. There are what 6 states that decide the election now. Let's make it equal for all. One vote counts the same in all states. VOTE THE HATERS OUT.

We are 50 states that vote for a president, 50 states that have a say. We are not 330 million people who vote for a president (or anything else for that matter)

 

[TC Nole OX]

With dems winning popular vote every yr. This isn t sustainable for Republicans. The rich are trying to squeeze a couple more cycles before the dam breaks. We are basically a dictatorship now with minority rule and Supreme courts being crazy right leaning. There are what 6 states that decide the election now. Let's make it equal for all. One vote counts the same in all states. VOTE THE HATERS OUT.

The two most recent iterations of an electoral college type hurdle, one repealed and one proposed, and the states involved, tell you all you need to know about why this archaic requirement exists.

Mississippi Just Got Rid of its Electoral College-like Election Process​

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www.usnews.com

As few as 1 in 5 voters could defeat initiative petitions under Missouri Senate proposal • Missouri Independent

The bill set for Senate debate would require a majority vote in 82 House districts and a statewide majority to pass constitutional amendments.

missouriindependent.com

 

[Jerome Silberman]

I don't know what the answer is, but I do agree that the process needs to be updated.

There has been way too much physical expansion, technological advancement and education improvements to justify the actual reasons it was first created. Unfortunately there seem to be millions of people that are content with assuming it exists for the reasons their seed corn salesman/lawmaker's self-serving revisionist history.

 

[Funky Bunch]

It might be outdated, but democracy won't die. That's like saying the NFL will die because of stupid overtime rules. Democracy might die for other reasons though if the MAGAts have their way.

 

[The Tradition]

I don't know what the answer is, but I do agree that the process needs to be updated.

There has been way too much physical expansion, technological advancement and education improvements to justify the actual reasons it was first created. Unfortunately there seem to be millions of people that are content with assuming it exists for the reasons their seed corn salesman/lawmaker's self-serving revisionist history.

Huh? The founders established all sorts of barriers against direct democracy. We vote for representatives; we don't vote on bills ourselves. Originally, our representatives in state legislatures elected senators; not the people directly. Originally, only white men were allowed to vote. And of course the electoral college.... we vote for state electors; not the president.

The idea had nothing to do with all the crap you're talking about. The idea was that "mob rule" is a terrible political system. The idea was that impassioned, transient public opinion is likely to lead to bad laws. The idea is that people are better at picking smart representatives than they are at picking smart ideas.

 

[Sharky1203]

With dems winning popular vote every yr. This isn t sustainable for Republicans. The rich are trying to squeeze a couple more cycles before the dam breaks. We are basically a dictatorship now with minority rule and Supreme courts being crazy right leaning. There are what 6 states that decide the election now. Let's make it equal for all. One vote counts the same in all states. VOTE THE HATERS OUT.

We still need something that doesn't allow the metropolitan areas to control everything. So, JMO, instead of for every voting district getting an electoral vote, we just go to 2 points per state.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

Huh? The founders established all sorts of barriers against direct democracy. We vote for representatives; we don't vote on bills ourselves. Originally, our representatives in state legislatures elected senators; not the people directly. Originally, only white men were allowed to vote. And of course the electoral college.... we vote for state electors, not the president.

The idea had nothing to do with all the crap you're talking about. The idea was that "mob rule" is a terrible political system. The idea was that impassioned, transient public opinion is likely to lead to bad laws. The idea is that people are better at picking smart representatives than they are at picking smart ideas.

You're a good example of what I was talking about.

Please, read some source materials on the subject with an open mind. You'll find that there is way more to the story than what you currently believe.

 

[IACub]

The Electoral College should remain as long as Republicans aren't allowed to continue to gerrymander districts. How this blatant cheating to steal votes has been allowed under our noses is reprehensible.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

It might be outdated, but democracy won't die. That's like saying the NFL will die because of stupid overtime rules. Democracy might die for other reasons though if the MAGAts have their way.

Yeah I sort of in this camp. The electoral college is an extremely outdated system, pretty much no one else uses anything like it to elect their executive branch. We strongly need to update our systems to reflect the views of the voters.

That said it's not the end of democracy if it remains it just is something that causes the government to be more and more disconnected from the will of the voters.

I'm of the opinion that the best government is the one that is most connected to the will of the voters. Perfect connection is impossible, we can't have a referrendum on every law, every budget. But any time there is a law or proposal that polls 70%+ from the voters but can not seem to pass congress or even be considered in congress it indicates a big disconnect from the voters and thus bad government.

And honestly I don't give a damn about the founders or what they intended. They are dead, this is our country now, we're the ones who have to live in it. The founders also intended this to be a country that only white people rule in and black people were enslaved and that was a dumb as shit idea and not to mention inhumane idea. So I reject the idea that the founders were uber geniuses that knew what was best for the country 250 years in the future.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

With dems winning popular vote every yr. This isn t sustainable for Republicans. The rich are trying to squeeze a couple more cycles before the dam breaks. We are basically a dictatorship now with minority rule and Supreme courts being crazy right leaning. There are what 6 states that decide the election now. Let's make it equal for all. One vote counts the same in all states. VOTE THE HATERS OUT.

No. The majority trample the Rights of the minority when they attain absolute power. The system is designed to prevent this from happening.

Take the trans fad for example. Rationality and critical thinking are dead to these people. They would gladly imprison wrong thinkers if given half a chance. They’re insane.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

No. The majority trample the Rights of the minority when they attain absolute power. The system is designed to prevent this from happening.

Take the trans fad for example. Rationality and critical thinking are dead to these people. They would gladly imprison wrong thinkers if given half a chance. They’re insane.

Absolute power?

How would this even happen under the current system unless it was the will of the voters across multiple states?

 

[Bulldogs1974]

We still need something that doesn't allow the metropolitan areas to control everything. So, JMO, instead of for every voting district getting an electoral vote, we just go to 2 points per state.

Thats what the senate is for. Do you really think the dakota's wyoming and montana should have 8 senators for a population barely bigger than iowa?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

No. The majority trample the Rights of the minority when they attain absolute power. The system is designed to prevent this from happening.

Take the trans fad for example. Rationality and critical thinking are dead to these people. They would gladly imprison wrong thinkers if given half a chance. They’re insane.

Problem is that's not a majority. That's a minority who is just really loud.

You really think that the majority of Americans don't think Leah Thomas had a massive advantage? Shoot probably half of all Dems plus nearly all Republicans and most independents think he had an advantage.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

We are 50 states that vote for a president, 50 states that have a say. We are not 330 million people who vote for a president (or anything else for that matter)

LOL...so what?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Thats what the senate is for. Do you really think the dakota's wyoming and montana should have 8 senators for a population barely bigger than iowa?

Honestly the rights of the minority are for the courts and the constitution.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

Wait until you hear about what the sky is going to do!

 

[Sharky1203]

Thats what the senate is for. Do you really think the dakota's wyoming and montana should have 8 senators for a population barely bigger than iowa?

Yes

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

No. The majority trample the Rights of the minority when they attain absolute power. The system is designed to prevent this from happening.

Take the trans fad for example. Rationality and critical thinking are dead to these people. They would gladly imprison wrong thinkers if given half a chance. They’re insane.

Minority rights not minority rule!!!

Minority rights is a fence that says "the majority can't cross here". Such as (but not limited to) the minority's right to say the majority is a bunch of dumbasses. That fence absolutely exists and should be vigorously defended by the courts.

But when the minority through a convoluted system gets to put their man in office over the votes of the majority that's minority rule not minority rights.

Rights are a wall that says the driver of the state (those who hold office and rule) can't run us over with that state. It doesn't mean the minority gets to pick the driver. Not a few times, not one time, not ever. The majority always picks the driver.

 

[thewop]

Our representative democratic republic will die if it is.

We don't have a democracy.

The electoral college is in place for good reason, and should stay as such.

 

[thewop]

The Electoral College should remain as long as Republicans aren't allowed to continue to gerrymander districts. How this blatant cheating to steal votes has been allowed under our noses is reprehensible.

If there was ever a both sides...it's gerrymandering

 

[Scruddy]

Lol

 

[The Tradition]

Yeah I sort of in this camp. The electoral college is an extremely outdated system, pretty much no one else uses anything like it to elect their executive branch. We strongly need to update our systems to reflect the views of the voters.

Who gives a crap what everybody else does? We're the most-successful nation in the world. Why should we want to be like everybody else?

 

[thewop]

What needs reform is the Senate, this will protect us, house and presidential elections stays as is, but the Senate:

Each state elects 1 Democrat and 1 republican (yes no 3rd party) to the Senate. Everything needs 55 votes to pass the Senate (or 58, or 60, whatever is decided).


In the absence of that, term limits would be a good start.

 

[Rifler]

With dems winning popular vote every yr. This isn t sustainable for Republicans. The rich are trying to squeeze a couple more cycles before the dam breaks. We are basically a dictatorship now with minority rule and Supreme courts being crazy right leaning. There are what 6 states that decide the election now. Let's make it equal for all. One vote counts the same in all states. VOTE THE HATERS OUT.

Constitutional amendment,.. go for it & good luck.

 

[TC Nole OX]

It might be outdated, but democracy won't die. That's like saying the NFL will die because of stupid overtime rules. Democracy might die for other reasons though if the MAGAts have their way.

A minority of voters pick 2/3rds of government, the executive branch and the judiciary. In addition the senate skews to favor the same minority of voters.

Like the op said, it is unsustainable.

 

[TC Nole OX]

The Electoral College should remain as long as Republicans aren't allowed to continue to gerrymander districts. How this blatant cheating to steal votes has been allowed under our noses is reprehensible.

Gerrymandering needs to go, as does the archaic electoral college

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Who gives a crap what everybody else does? We're the most-successful nation in the world. Why should we want to be like everybody else?

So many problems with this argument.

First problem is so many nations that were the most powerful/successful before us in history used that argument and declined because they refused to change.

The second problem with that is what is your marker of success? GDP and military power. Ok great we're number 1 . . . for now. But happiness and quality of life of the citizens. Yeah we're far from the top. The will of the citizens being transferred to law and policy, we're also pretty far from the top.

I'm not sure that the most successful nation is the one with the biggest military and biggest GDP. I'd argue the most successful nation is the one with the happiest citizens who have the best quality of life. The size of our GDP doesn't help me much if I don't see much of it and the size of our military only means I feel pretty safe that we won't be invaded. . . but that second part is true of a lot of countries who's militaries are much smaller. Canada's not worried about invasion, neither is the UK or Germany or France or Spain. You are only really worried about invasion if you have a more powerful aggressive neighbor near you and no friends. We don't have that issue. We could disband our military and we still wouldn't be invaded by Canada and Mexico.

I'm not advocating that because I'm not an isolationist and I realize we still got to worry about nukes. I just don't see having the biggest baddest military as some point of national pride.

 

[Rifler]

A minority of voters pick 2/3rds of government, the executive branch and the judiciary. In addition the senate skews to favor the same minority of voters.

Like the op said, it is unsustainable.

It's extremely sustainable,.. Short of a constitutional amendment, it's damn near bulletproof.

 

[hexumhawk]

Yes, lets abandon one of the core principals of what made the United States the greatest nation in the world. Good idea.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Constitutional amendment,.. go for it & good luck.

The constitution is fundamentally flawed too because it takes a nearly impossible supermajority to change.

Shoot we wouldn't have gotten the 13th amendment likely ever if there wasn't a civil war and we essentially said that the southern state's votes don't count.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

Our representative democratic republic will die if it is.

We don't have a democracy.

The electoral college is in place for good reason, and should stay as such.

A republican government is a form of democracy. This idea is a meme that isn't very accurate, and at best is just parsing words.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

Yes, lets abandon one of the core principals of what made the United States the greatest nation in the world. Good idea.

You believe the electoral college made the US the greatest nation in the world?

 

[IACub]

If there was ever a both sides...it's gerrymandering

I disagree, but can we at least that it should be abolished? If there's anything in the world that AI would be good at, drawing an electoral map seems like an ideal duty. Just don't expose it to social media first...

 

[Funky Bunch]

A minority of voters pick 2/3rds of government, the executive branch and the judiciary. In addition the senate skews to favor the same minority of voters.

Like the op said, it is unsustainable.

And like I said, democracy could die for other reasons. But not because of the Electoral College.

 

[thewop]

A republican government is a form of democracy. This idea is a meme that isn't very accurate, and at best is just parsing words.

I somewhat agree, but removing the electoral college turns it into a more pure democracy, and there are many excellent reasons we wouldn't want that.

Those who do want it now only want it because they believe it will serve their political interests in the current environment, but it's terribly short-sighted.

 

[Rifler]

You believe the electoral college made the US the greatest nation in the world?

Without the electoral college the US as we know it would not exist today...

 

[Jerome Silberman]

I somewhat agree, but removing the electoral college turns it into a more pure democracy, and there are many excellent reasons we wouldn't want that.

Those who do want it now only want it because they believe it will serve their political interests in the current environment, but it's terribly short-sighted.

That's as fair of an analysis as any, but I'm not sure there are actually that many people in favor of a complete removal of the system. At least I haven't seen it and this is an issue I have been more than a little nerdy about for some time.

Most of what I have seen is a desire to reform the current system to more accurately reflect the will of the voters, and that goes back to the days of Nixon. Despite what the more bombastic voices might say, having the POTUS election be at odds with the popular vote has been a point of concern for a while and it has less to do with who will hold power and more to do with the longterm ramifications of the citizens losing faith in the system. Which is something I hear an awful lot about from GOP politicians and their supports when it comes to collecting and counting ballots, but conveniently not when it comes to the unconventional results of POTUS elections or the ethics of judges.

This issue isn't new, but it has become increasingly more problematic in the last few decades and IMO will boil over if people don't move off of their absolutist positions.

 

[Finance85]

We don't have a federal democracy, we have a Constitutional Republic. It would really be nice if US History and basic civics were emphasized in high schools.

Oh, and the author apparently doesn't realize what will happen if we did eliminate the EC. California / NY would happen nationally. That's a great reason to keep the EC.