Do citizens (not police officers) with guns ever stop mass shootings?

[LuckyNed]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...er-stop-mass-shootings/?tid=pm_opinions_pop_b

Backers of laws that let pretty much all law-abiding people carry concealed guns in public places often argue that these laws will sometimes enable people to stop mass shootings. Opponents occasionally ask: If that’s so, what examples can one give of civilians armed with guns stopping such shootings? Sometimes, I hear people asking if even one such example can be found, or saying that they haven’t heard of even one such example.

Still, for whatever they are worth, here is a list of some such incidents (which deliberately excludes killings stopped by people who were off-duty police officers, or police officers from other jurisdictions, at the time of a shooting.:

 

[Huey Grey]

What I've read into the matter says it doesn't happen much, even making among mass shootings. Any gun owners who do prevent these tragedies seem to either be off duty police or military or retired police or military. Either way, they are still highly trained individuals which doesn't bolster the claim that ordinary people with guns can do the same.

 

[KitingHigh]

What I've read into the matter says it doesn't happen much, even making among mass shootings. Any gun owners who do prevent these tragedies seem to either be off duty police or military or retired police or military. Either way, they are still highly trained individuals which doesn't bolster the claim that ordinary people with guns can do the same.

Regular citizens stop about a thousand times more crime from happening then cops do. Handguns are used by non cops to stop over a million crimes per year. Almost all of them occur without actually shooting the gun. Many millions of additional crimes are stopped by non cops without guns.

 

[Huey Grey]

Regular citizens stop about a thousand times more crime from happening then cops do. Handguns are used by non cops to stop over a million crimes per year. Almost all of them occur without actually shooting the gun. Many millions of additional crimes are stopped by non cops without guns.

Hate to break it to you, but this all appears to be mostly a myth.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/04/charts-debunking-myth-guns-self-defense

 

[ihhawk]

A lot of the mass shootings are in Gun free zones so Im pretty sure that the gunman has to wait for the police to arrive.

I ask this question, would a shooter kill more people at headquarters of the NRA or at the ACLU headquarters?

 

[moral_victory]

I ask this question, would a shooter kill more people at headquarters of the NRA or at the ACLU headquarters?

You looking for advice?

 

[KitingHigh]

Hate to break it to you, but this all appears to be mostly a myth.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/04/charts-debunking-myth-guns-self-defense

That doesn't refute anything. that article only considers incidents when there is a homicide. Anti gun people intentionally skew the numbers by ignoring the millions of defenses where the gun isn't even fired.

 

[Huey Grey]

A lot of the mass shootings are in Gun free zones so Im pretty sure that the gunman has to wait for the police to arrive.

I ask this question, would a shooter kill more people at headquarters of the NRA or at the ACLU headquarters?

This seems to be an apple to oranges comparison since the NRA headquarters in probably filled with highly trained people in the use of guns. But that's not what this thread is about. It's about the NRA's argument that you can take ordinary citizens, who are untrained, and make them efficient at preventing mass murders simply by giving them a gun. I know of no studies which support this claim.

 

[Huey Grey]

That doesn't refute anything. that article only considers incidents when there is a homicide. Anti gun people intentionally skew the numbers by ignoring the millions of defenses where the gun isn't even fired.

But the problem is that information over this specific form of crime is pretty spotty. No one can nail down exactly how many of these crimes happen and how many are prevented. It's all guessing.

 

[KitingHigh]

But the problem is that information over this specific form of crime is pretty spotty. No one can nail down exactly how many of these crimes happen and how many are prevented. It's all guessing.

It's not just guessing. There have been a number of surveys done. Gleck's being the most famous. The anti gun people try to refute it, but have never come up with a refute with any meat in it. They just try to claim that all the respondents lied or bring up false narratives like only counting police reports or hospital records. The fact is, even allowing for significant error, guns are used millions of times a year in defense and the vast majority of the time the gun is not fired and the police are never involved.

 

[LuckyNed]

It's not just guessing. There have been a number of surveys done. Gleck's being the most famous. The anti gun people try to refute it, but have never come up with a refute with any meat in it. They just try to claim that all the respondents lied or bring up false narratives like only counting police reports or hospital records. The fact is, even allowing for significant error, guns are used millions of times a year in defense and the vast majority of the time the gun is not fired and the police are never involved.

People like Huey, Moral and their ilk go through life with blinders on, facts mean nothing to that sorry group of individuals.

 

[Huey Grey]

It's not just guessing. There have been a number of surveys done. Gleck's being the most famous. The anti gun people try to refute it, but have never come up with a refute with any meat in it. They just try to claim that all the respondents lied or bring up false narratives like only counting police reports or hospital records. The fact is, even allowing for significant error, guns are used millions of times a year in defense and the vast majority of the time the gun is not fired and the police are never involved.

As this Duke study points outs, using surveys for rare events typically leads to over-estimations. Additionally, any good science should be repeatable. However, the NRA seems to oppose any additional studies or surveys over the matter. It doesn't exactly lead credibility to the claim.

https://stat.duke.edu/~dalene/chance/chanceweb/103.myth0.pdf

 

[Huey Grey]

People like Huey, Moral and their ilk go through life with blinders on, facts mean nothing to that sorry group of individuals.

Quite the opposite. As you can tell from my posts and links, it appears I'm the only one using facts in this thread.

 

[KitingHigh]

As this Duke study points outs, using surveys for rare events typically leads to over-estimations. Additionally, any good science should be repeatable. However, the NRA seems to oppose any additional studies or surveys over the matter. It doesn't exactly lead credibility to the claim.

https://stat.duke.edu/~dalene/chance/chanceweb/103.myth0.pdf

That flawed rebuttal used false logic in exactly the way I said in my earlier post. It is simply a dishonest attempt to refute what real studies have shown. For the third time, most gun defenses are not reported to police. You cannot use reported crimes as a basis, when the very point of self defense is that the crime never ends up occurring and is therefore not reported.

Now, there is certainly some error in surveys, but logic dictates that the error would occurs both ways and likely offset. Regardless even if only half of respondents are telling the truth, and all the liars are ones claiming to have had a self defense situation dishonestly, that's still over a million defenses per year. This cannot be logically disputed without building a false premise such as the ones in your link.

 

[ihhawk]

Ill ask this question. You are sitting in church with your family and a gunman walks in and starts shooting everywhere. Would you rather have a few people in the congregation who have concealed weapons or would you rather just wait for the cops to arrive?

 

[moral_victory]

People like Huey, Moral and their ilk go through life with blinders on, facts mean nothing to that sorry group of individuals.

I actually stopped a guy from rummaging through my car with a stag-15 once without firing a shot. I did actually give the charging handle a pull to drive my point though, and he ran off politely. However, I am not a gun enthusiast, and even though I used a gun in that case I decided I could go through life without anymore weapons. I'm not even after your guns, but I am for what is dubbed "common sense gun control." The fear of us liberals coming for your guns is NRA driven propaganda mostly.

 

[moral_victory]

Ill ask this question. You are sitting in church with your family and a gunman walks in and starts shooting everywhere. Would you rather have a few people in the congregation who have concealed weapons or would you rather just wait for the cops to arrive?

Stinks of paranoia. In Korea for exercises there would be a large percentage of people augmented into security forces. Whenever they came into skirmishes we would be instantly teleported into friendly fire town because most people are unable to control their excitement, and make decisive moves at the same time. Adrenaline is a killer.

 

[ihhawk]

So you didn't answer my question. Would you rather have some people in that church who went through the conceal training or would you rather wait for the cops?

 

[moral_victory]

So you didn't answer my question. Would you rather have some people in that church who went through the conceal training or would you rather wait for the cops?

Well I don't go to church, and I don't have a family so I must be the gunman.

 

[artradley]

It's not just guessing. There have been a number of surveys done. Gleck's being the most famous. The anti gun people try to refute it, but have never come up with a refute with any meat in it. They just try to claim that all the respondents lied or bring up false narratives like only counting police reports or hospital records. The fact is, even allowing for significant error, guns are used millions of times a year in defense and the vast majority of the time the gun is not fired and the police are never involved.

How many millions each year?

How many women prevent a rape each year?

I'd like to hear those two numbers.

 

[LuckyNed]

It's not just guessing. There have been a number of surveys done. Gleck's being the most famous. The anti gun people try to refute it, but have never come up with a refute with any meat in it. They just try to claim that all the respondents lied or bring up false narratives like only counting police reports or hospital records. The fact is, even allowing for significant error, guns are used millions of times a year in defense and the vast majority of the time the gun is not fired and the police are never involved.

People like Huey, Moral and their ilk go through life with blinders on, facts mean nothing to that sorry group of individuals.

How many millions each year?

How many women prevent a rape each year?

I'd like to hear those two numbers.

Plenty Art, plenty!

The cold hard facts clearly show armed citizens prevent mass shootings each and every day, the police rarely prevent crime they mostly investigate after it has happened.

The armed citizen is the equalizer in this equation.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

You guys realize that these mass shootings generally happen in places where you're not allowed to carry a gun, right? So, if this is the case, how could you ever expect someone carrying to stop one of these shootings?

 

[artradley]

People like Huey, Moral and their ilk go through life with blinders on, facts mean nothing to that sorry group of individuals.




Plenty Art, plenty!

The cold hard facts clearly show armed citizens prevent mass shootings each and every day, the police rarely prevent crime they mostly investigate after it has happened.

The armed citizen is the equalizer in this equation.

Since you prefer to deal with cold, hard facts I would have expected a somewhat more precise answer than "plenty." That seems to be a step backward from "millions" in answering my question.

 

[LuckyNed]

Since you prefer to deal with cold, hard facts I would have expected a somewhat more precise answer than "plenty." That seems to be a step backward from "millions" in answering my question.

You brought up millions basically insinuating that millions are killed in mass shootings?

 

[artradley]

You brought up millions basically insinuating that millions are killed in mass shootings?

You might want to re-read my post Chief...

 

[LuckyNed]

Since you prefer to deal with cold, hard facts I would have expected a somewhat more precise answer than "plenty." That seems to be a step backward from "millions" in answering my question.

You brought up millions basically insinuating that millions are killed in mass shootings?

 

[LuckyNed]

You might want to re-read my post Chief...

You're racist Art.

 

[Sooner-Be-Dead]

It's not just guessing. There have been a number of surveys done. Gleck's being the most famous. The anti gun people try to refute it, but have never come up with a refute with any meat in it. They just try to claim that all the respondents lied or bring up false narratives like only counting police reports or hospital records. The fact is, even allowing for significant error, guns are used millions of times a year in defense and the vast majority of the time the gun is not fired and the police are never involved.

Pure fantasy.

 

[Eternal Return]

Handguns are used by non cops to stop over a million crimes per year.

Um ... I'm gonna call BS on that one. Maybe you meant "hundreds" -- that would still be unsubstantiated without documented evidence of some sort, but I'd give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

 

[KitingHigh]

Um ... I'm gonna call BS on that one. Maybe you meant "hundreds" -- that would still be unsubstantiated without documented evidence of some sort, but I'd give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Pure fantasy.

More than 16 study's have been done.

https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/journals/JFPP11.pdf

 

[artradley]

More than 16 study's have been done.

https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/journals/JFPP11.pdf

And tons of studies have been done proving cigarettes are harmless. In the mean time, I still want to hear your estimate on how many "millions" of crimes are prevented each year by somebody brandishing a gun, and how many rapes are prevented each year.

 

[22*43*51]

Do I need to flood this thread with gun defense stories as well?

I never have to go back more than a couple of weeks to find a couple dozen.

 

[Hawk in SEC Country]

Hate to break it to you, but this all appears to be mostly a myth.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/04/charts-debunking-myth-guns-self-defense

Motherjones? you don't have a better source than that? You might as well have linked infowars.

 

[KitingHigh]

And tons of studies have been done proving cigarettes are harmless. In the mean time, I still want to hear your estimate on how many "millions" of crimes are prevented each year by somebody brandishing a gun, and how many rapes are prevented each year.

According to the most respected study, about 2.5 million. Don't know about rapes offhand.

 

[22*43*51]

From an hour ago

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ing-at-gage-park-business-20151031-story.html

Yesterday.

http://wgntv.com/2015/11/01/man-shot-and-killed-with-legally-concealed-weapon/

Last week.

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...accused-robber-pizza-deliveryman-who-shot-him

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...n-fatally-shot-mom-farmington-hills/74727650/

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...im-shoots-suspect-orlando-20151026-story.html

http://m.kspr.com/grandson-protects-grandmother-from-home-invader/21053016_35933964

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/n...hoots-attempted-robber-during-pizza-de/nn83Q/

http://kfor.com/2015/10/26/official...ruder-in-his-driveway-investigation-underway/

http://www.abc2news.com/news/crime-checker/baltimore-city-crime/armed-bar-employee-shoots-robber

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/10/23/armed-robbers-chased-female-homeowner-rifle

Prior Week

http://www.wxyz.com/news/region/det...mall-detroit-church?google_editors_picks=true

http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/23/h...crawls-into-his-bed-naked-with-a-knife-video/

http://www.13abc.com/home/headlines...t-shoots-armed-robbery-suspect-334869301.html

I'm tired.

The point is, you don't even have to try very hard to enlighten yourselves.

 

[22*43*51]

Back on topic.

This guy stopped a mass shooting at a mall last year in Oregon.

Remember?

http://www.kgw.com/story/news/2014/07/24/12405148/

 

[The Tradition]

Who says ordinary citizens are untrained? Of course, some are, and some aren't. I would posit that lawful gun owners are more likely to have received some sort of training than unlawful gun owners.

 

[Huey Grey]

Since you prefer to deal with cold, hard facts I would have expected a somewhat more precise answer than "plenty." That seems to be a step backward from "millions" in answering my question.

There's a reason why he can't get any closer than plenty. Because there is little information out there to get any closer. The NRA doesn't care about real numbers. There's a reason why they don't want to repeat this survey. They don't want to risk looking like crap if the next study opposes the first. It's pretty much a joke to think that the NRA cares about actual numbers. They've been suppressing the study of gun violence for years now. They don't want the truth.

 

[Huey Grey]

Who says ordinary citizens are untrained? Of course, some are, and some aren't. I would posit that lawful gun owners are more likely to have received some sort of training than unlawful gun owners.

Proper training takes months if not years. Because of this barrier, few ordinary citizens will invest the time to become proficient at gun usage.

 

[The Tradition]

Proper training takes months if not years. Because of this barrier, few ordinary citizens will invest the time to become proficient at gun usage.

I was in the military and didn't get "months and years" of training. One week at the range in boot camp, and semi-annual single-day sessions at the range to maintain qualifications.