Do citizens (not police officers) with guns ever stop mass shootings?

[Huey Grey]

Back on topic.

This guy stopped a mass shooting at a mall last year in Oregon.

Remember?

http://www.kgw.com/story/news/2014/07/24/12405148/

Or maybe he embellished the story to make it seem like he did. His story of what happened kept changing making it inconclusive if he actually did or didn't:

"It’s inconclusive on our end," said Lt. Robert Wurpes, office spokesman. "We can’t say either way whether he did or did not make a difference. It would only be speculation."

Other news accounts in the days after the shooting indicated that Meli changed his story slightly. According to police reports, Meli’s first contact with deputies took place as the search for Roberts was still unfolding. Meli had a handgun out when officers first saw him. He provided information about the shooter but did not mention a confrontation with Roberts.

The next day, Meli told police he saw Roberts and drew his gun but didn’t fire out of fear of striking someone. The day after that, Meli added that Roberts looked at him and saw that Meli saw him before running off, according to a story by Rick Bella of The Oregonian."

http://www.politifact.com/oregon/st...ip-kinkel-and-clackamas-town-center-shooting/

 

[KitingHigh]

Proper training takes months if not years. Because of this barrier, few ordinary citizens will invest the time to become proficient at gun usage.

You are so off base its not even funny.

You are also crazy if you think cops trains for years. They spend about a week part time on gun training before qualifying. I have two brother in laws that became cops and the amount of training they do is laughable.

 

[Huey Grey]

I was in the military and didn't get "months and years" of training. One week at the range in boot camp, and semi-annual single-day sessions at the range to maintain qualifications.

So it's your contention that the military or the police can mint new recruits capable of performing effectively in combat in a matter of weeks?

 

[22*43*51]

Or maybe he embellished the story to make it seem like he did. His story of what happened kept changing making it inconclusive if he actually did or didn't:

"It’s inconclusive on our end," said Lt. Robert Wurpes, office spokesman. "We can’t say either way whether he did or did not make a difference. It would only be speculation."

Other news accounts in the days after the shooting indicated that Meli changed his story slightly. According to police reports, Meli’s first contact with deputies took place as the search for Roberts was still unfolding. Meli had a handgun out when officers first saw him. He provided information about the shooter but did not mention a confrontation with Roberts.

The next day, Meli told police he saw Roberts and drew his gun but didn’t fire out of fear of striking someone. The day after that, Meli added that Roberts looked at him and saw that Meli saw him before running off, according to a story by Rick Bella of The Oregonian."

http://www.politifact.com/oregon/st...ip-kinkel-and-clackamas-town-center-shooting/

Of course that has to be the answer. You cannot have a citizen save the lives of other citizens.

Only government can do that.

 

[Huey Grey]

You are so off base its not even funny.

You are also crazy if you think cops trains for years. They spend about a week part time on gun training before qualifying. I have two brother in laws that became cops and the amount of training they do is laughable.

You understand that learning how to use the gun is just part of the training process, right? The far larger part, and the part that takes a long time to master, is learning how and when to use the gun in combat.

 

[The Tradition]

So it's your contention that the military or the police can mint new recruits capable of performing effectively in combat in a matter of weeks?

There's more to learn besides firearm training.

 

[22*43*51]

So it's your contention that the military or the police can mint new recruits capable of performing effectively in combat in a matter of weeks?

10 weeks to be precise.

 

[The Tradition]

You understand that learning how to use the gun is just part of the training process, right? The far larger part, and the part that takes a long time to master, is learning how and when to use the gun in combat.

They had video simulations for shoot/no-shoot scenarios in the early-90s when I was in the military. Again, we spent a couple of hours on that.

 

[artradley]

According to the most respected study, about 2.5 million. Don't know about rapes offhand.

And there about, what, 80 million gun owners?

 

[KitingHigh]

And there about, what, 80 million gun owners?

What's your point?

The majority of cops never draw their weapon and the vast majority never fire theirs over their entire career.

 

[Huey Grey]

Of course that has to be the answer. You cannot have a citizen save the lives of other citizens.

Only government can do that.

Citizens who have undergone intensive training can safe lives. But if all you have is a few rounds at the gun range and a weekend class, we're probably better leaving the fighting of armed criminals to the experts.

It just blows my mind that some of you think that Average Joe's with no engagement training are qualified to take down armed killers.

 

[Sooner-Be-Dead]

Do I need to flood this thread with gun defense stories as well?

I never have to go back more than a couple of weeks to find a couple dozen.

According to Kiting you should be able to link 6800 per day.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

You are so off base its not even funny.

You are also crazy if you think cops trains for years. They spend about a week part time on gun training before qualifying. I have two brother in laws that became cops and the amount of training they do is laughable.

My buddy's parents would definitely be qualified as "gun nuts" by the tolerant left on here. His mother used to go to shooting competitions and she would wipe the floor with the policemen who were participating.

 

[Huey Grey]

10 weeks to be precise.

10 weeks for a soldier. 21 weeks for a cop. Even the 10 week mark is well beyond the time investment for an ordinary citizen.

 

[artradley]

What's your point?

The majority of cops never draw their weapon and the vast majority never fire theirs over their entire career.

I'm just trying to get a handle on the implications of these numbers. It sounds as if, were these numbers true, then over any give 5 year period about 10% of all gun owners will have thwarted a crime by brandishing their guns. Now, if we figure that, at the very best, a gun owner has about a 50% of actually having a gun on his/her possession at the time that they encounter a crime in progress (seriously, it couldn't possibly be that high, but I'll give you the best possible chances here) and that every single time a gun owner, with a gun in their possession, managed to thwart a crime when they encounter it, that would mean that in any given five year period, about 20% of all gun owners encounter a crime in progress!

That seems to strain credulity for me, as I can't imagine that 20% of all Americans encounter a crime in progress over any given 5 year period. I've never witnessed one in my 58 years on this planet, nor has my wife. The numbers just seem impossible.

 

[Huey Grey]

My buddy's parents would definitely be qualified as "gun nuts" by the tolerant left on here. His mother used to go to shooting competitions and she would wipe the floor with the policemen who were participating.

Why do some of you keep comparing novelty shooting to open combat? The two couldn't be more different.

 

[The Tradition]

10 weeks for a soldier. 21 weeks for a cop. Even the 10 week mark is well beyond the time investment for an ordinary citizen.

IT'S NOT 10 WEEKS STRAIGHT OF NOTHING BUT FIREARMS TRAINING! Good grief, man. We spent most of our time marching, ironing and shining our boots/brass.

 

[22*43*51]

According to Kiting you should be able to link 6800 per day.

I might just be able to. There are a ton out there.

 

[22*43*51]

Citizens who have undergone intensive training can safe lives. But if all you have is a few rounds at the gun range and a weekend class, we're probably better leaving the fighting of armed criminals to the experts.

It just blows my mind that some of you think that Average Joe's with no engagement training are qualified to take down armed killers.

That individual at least saved his own life and the life of the lady with him.

The gunman saw he was armed and went a different direction.

Do you wish they hadn't survived?

 

[Huey Grey]

IT'S NOT 10 WEEKS STRAIGHT OF NOTHING BUT FIREARMS TRAINING! Good grief, man. We spent most of our time marching, ironing and shining our boots/brass.

I'm really scratching my head on how clueless some of you are in this thread. The mechanics of shooting the gun is but a small part of training. Knowing when and how to use this gun is by far the more important aspect. Why is it so hard for you to get this? You're insisting that these people go head to head with armed killers. You're insisting on them going into combat. I don't care how many awards you've won a the shooting range. Combat with armed opponents is a totally different beast. And it's something that is completely unreasonable to expect an ordinary citizen to handle competently.

 

[22*43*51]

It just blows my mind that some of you think that Average Joe's with no engagement training are qualified to take down armed killers.

How much "engagement training" does the average "armed killer" have?

 

[Huey Grey]

That individual at least saved his own life and the life of the lady with him.

The gunman saw he was armed and went a different direction.

Do you wish they hadn't survived?

Guess you missed the part with the police saying that him doing any of this is pure speculation.

 

[Huey Grey]

How much "engagement training" does the average "armed killer" have?

Who cares? They are armed, often suicidal, and often mentally deranged. To claim that Average Joe's should be the ones to take these people out is insane.

 

[22*43*51]

Guess you missed the part with the police saying that him doing any of this is pure speculation.

That goes the other way too. Nothing says he didn't influence the outcome either.

 

[The Tradition]

I'm really scratching my head on how clueless some of you are in this thread. The mechanics of shooting the gun is but a small part of training. Knowing when and how to use this gun is by far the more important aspect. Why is it so hard for you to get this? You're insisting that these people go head to head with armed killers. You're insisting on them going into combat. I don't care how many awards you've won a the shooting range. Combat with armed opponents is a totally different beast. And it's something that is completely unreasonable to expect an ordinary citizen to handle competently.

I already responded to that. We spent about an hour or two on that as part of a larger couple of days on law enforcement training. Your fantasy that military and police agonize over this stuff and undergo months of intensive training is simply wrong.

 

[22*43*51]

Who cares? They are armed, often suicidal, and often mentally deranged. To claim that Average Joe's should be the ones to take these people out is insane.

So if the "armed killer" doesn't have this magical training that you cannot describe and I don't either then it sounds like the playing field is even.

 

[Huey Grey]

That goes the other way too. Nothing says he didn't influence the outcome either.

Ah, but you're presenting him as having done this. There is reasonable doubt he did any of this. So it's a lousy example of someone preventing a crime.

 

[22*43*51]

Ah, but you're presenting him as having done this. There is reasonable doubt he did any of this. So it's a lousy example of someone preventing a crime.

It's inconclusive. Therefore it cannot be confirmed, or denied.

The police neither confirmed, or denied the citizen's(hero's) influence.

 

[Huey Grey]

I already responded to that. We spent about an hour or two on that as part of a larger couple of days on law enforcement training. Your fantasy that military and police agonize over this stuff and undergo months of intensive training is simply wrong.

So to get this straight. During the 21 weeks of police academy, only a few hours are spent on training officers on how to engage with criminals? Is that your story?

 

[Huey Grey]

It's inconclusive. Therefore it cannot be confirmed, or denied.

The police neither confirmed, or denied the citizen's(hero's) influence.

Exactly. Which makes it a poor example to prove ordinary citizen's saving the day.

 

[22*43*51]

So to get this straight. During the 21 weeks of police academy, only a few hours are spent on training officers on how to engage with criminals? Is that your story?

Stick with the Military example. That is the one Tradition has personal experience with.

 

[22*43*51]

Exactly. Which makes it a poor example to prove ordinary citizen's saving the day.

Then I cite the other dozen links from the past two weeks posted above.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

There is in general a difficulty in figuring something like this out that Snopes pointed out in one of their articles.

The main thing is that when a person who has pulled and perhaps started firing a gun is shot by a civilian, they are usually shot rather quickly and often die.

So it's very difficult to establish what their motives where after the fact. And it's hard to say if anyone was saved by them being shot and how many people where saved.

 

[The Tradition]

Stick with the Military example. That is the one Tradition has personal experience with.

Exactly. I have no idea what happens at all the various police academies across this land. I was just a regular Coast Guard recruit and spent a couple of years on patrol boats.

I would imagine "elite" teams like SWAT and special forces get a lot more training than the ordinary Joes.

 

[Huey Grey]

Stick with the Military example. That is the one Tradition has personal experience with.

Why should I have to stick to the military? It understand that that is where Trad's experience is, but the police is probably closer to the kind of experience you need for these kinds of criminals.

 

[KitingHigh]

Who cares? They are armed, often suicidal, and often mentally deranged. To claim that Average Joe's should be the ones to take these people out is insane.

The criminals are less than average joes. Do you think we are talking about guys training with Spectre? No, we are talking about people robbing quicky marts or breaking and entering homes because they aren't capable of holding down a decent job.

 

[The Tradition]

Now days kids get all the training they need on XBox.

 

[KitingHigh]

According to Kiting you should be able to link 6800 per day.

Why. The vast majority of times a non cop stops a crime from happening there is no report at all, much less a news article.

 

[KitingHigh]

I'm really scratching my head on how clueless some of you are in this thread. The mechanics of shooting the gun is but a small part of training. Knowing when and how to use this gun is by far the more important aspect. Why is it so hard for you to get this? You're insisting that these people go head to head with armed killers. You're insisting on them going into combat. I don't care how many awards you've won a the shooting range. Combat with armed opponents is a totally different beast. And it's something that is completely unreasonable to expect an ordinary citizen to handle competently.

If cops are really getting all this great situational training you speak of, why are the shooting kids with BB guns? Why is their track record of shooting innocent bystanders worse than that of non cops I those situations?

 

[Huey Grey]

If cops are really getting all this great situational training you speak of, why are the shooting kids with BB guns? Why is their track record of shooting innocent bystanders worse than that of non cops I those situations?

But that is the point. If even cops get it wrong, how well do you think that people with way less training will fare?