I'd agree that Doyle wasn't a racist ... but that's not to say that he didn't do things that were racist. He ultimately fostered an environment that wasn't terribly welcoming to all. When a great Hawk like Amani Hooker even says that he felt like he was walking on egg-shells ... that is telling you something.
Doch interview with Rhabdo Chris Doyle
- Thread starter CRazzle
- Start date
I'm sure that Ferentz tried to protect him in ways that he could ... but Doyle's antics had gone on for too long without reprimand. The very fact that a hostile learning environment was fostered sealed the deal. Certainly his public statement was simply an exclamation mark - because he took no accountability for his actions (nor demonstrated real remorse). There is irony there ... given the messages that he attempted to convey to so many of the guys on the team.
I think Kirk had to listen to guys like Mike Daniels and others from the past he also highly respected.
He says he felt like he was walking on egg-shells because of the bordering on militaristic culture. Hair, music, how you dress, etc.
Expectations surrounding those issues (when uniformly applied to all) are not racist. End of story.
I agree in a sense that I think the expectations they set were well intentioned. Hell, Deion was talking about implementing similar policies at Colorado.
To play devil’s advocate though, I don’t agree that expectations and rules being applied uniformly can’t be racist. Different races often have different styles of dressing, wearing hair, etc. If you set a policy of no braids for example, its easy to say well that policy applies to everyone so its not racist. However, if only the black players were actually wearing braids, it does have a disproportionate racial impact. And, its something that isn’t impacting football performance at all other than the idea of adding rules leads to more discipline.
Iowa did have a problem leading up to 2020 with retaining black players (and potentially recruiting black players). It was bad enough that they looked into it further. So, Doyle did have opportunities before 2020 to be more self-reflective.
If those expectations have a propensity to impact one group of players to a greater extent than another then it will probably result in a problem. What's considered acceptable, music, dress, and hair might be different for a black kid coming from Detroit than a white kid from Amana. If the dictates from the staff consistently favor the cultural norms of one group over another, that might be received as unfair or even to those who are imposed upon, racist.
Sure. To some extent, I get what you're saying. Policies surrounding clothing, music, etc are a slippery slope.
But I also think by contorting oneself in an attempt to find 'racism', it loses it's meaning. By your definition, one could argue that asking players to be on time is racist, for example. Is asking players to maintain a certain GPA racist? At some point, you've kind of run amok of what racism really is.
Did we have a program that asked players to toe an extreme line? Absolutely.
Did these policies have a disproportionate affect on black players? Yes. So, at some point you end up at a crossroads of what policies are worth keeping, at the expense of alienating young black athletes, which the football program's success depends on.
But I still really balk at the concept of calling Doyle, KF, or anyone in the program racist. That's such an ugly word. And simply at odds with KF's character.
Came here to make the same statement, if Doyle had bided his time swallowed his ego, pride and outrage and had followed directions from the HC, AD and legal dept. it may have likely all been avoided, but he decided to ignore that and react. That was his choice and the final outcome for him I believe largely hinged on that decision.
If he's mad at KF or anyone else now because of his decisions, it's misplaced IMO.
I saw Chris at the Iowa State v Baylor game a couple years back when they played in Ames. Had his Baylor gear on as his son was playing his last year for them I believe. Wished I could have spoke with him. At the time he looked like had lost a bunch of weight.
My whole take on the things is this. Personally I am not motivated by screaming bitching or name calling. But those are tactics used in just about any area where you are going to push the body. So it does work on lot's and lot's of people. On me? I makes me just want to do it less and less until it becomes a battle of wills, that I refuse to now. I am the type that if you just calmly explain the whats what, I will get it done and I do not need any other motivation then that because now it becomes my mission. SO I understand people getting all butt hurt about the way some people motivate, but I also understand that those methods work for the majority and so I get why people do it and I get why some people are motivated that way. SO the whole thing to me seems kind of like a bunch of crap. Because again personally, I would have just straight up said that that way of motivating does not work on me. Was raised in a house where yelling, screaming and acting like a dick was forbidden, sure the shit ain't gonna put up with it in my adult life.
Was not fired by the legal definition. Contract not renewed. He was paid out. He didn't lose a penny of what he was owed through his contract.
Doyle may have had things going on that we will never know about that were true.
Kirk offered him a buyout and he took it rather than it be revealed and hurt the program.
In my opinion.
Majority of former black players (many whom went on to have good NFL careers) said Doyle was the problem and Kirk needed to change but still believed in Kirk. Kirk took responsibility by making said changes, replacing Doyle, and this team chemistry has NEVER been better. The proof is in the pudding.
Vast majority of former players defending Doyle were white. I wonder why. This isn't calculus guys. Doyle wasn't scapegoated and made more money than most surgeons. Cry me a river over poor Doyle. He reaped what he sowed and his hubris was ultimately his downfall.
My question for the doubters is what do you know that former players don't? And why don't you believe former players especially when they weren't part of the lawsuit? My guess is you don't have a good answer.
Vast majority of former players defending Doyle were white. I wonder why. This isn't calculus guys. Doyle wasn't scapegoated and made more money than most surgeons. Cry me a river over poor Doyle. He reaped what he sowed and his hubris was ultimately his downfall.
My question for the doubters is what do you know that former players don't? And why don't you believe former players especially when they weren't part of the lawsuit? My guess is you don't have a good answer.
What irritates me from the doubters is that they lump everyone together with the players who filed the lawsuit. Fact is, James Daniels and others went to Barta to report that there was a problem - nothing happened, so eventually they went public. Many of their accounts were corroborated by other players, both black and white. The players who DIDN'T join the lawsuit, I tend to believe their accounts, most of the ones who had their stories backed up by others fell into this camp.
The players who joined the lawsuit I tend to disbelieve because many of them were also known as guys who didn't leave on good terms for the most part and didn't have their stories supported by others.
A story of 2 guys who both played for Kirk. One at IOWA. One in the NFL. Both men of color. The young man at IOWA played at a high school that had similar rules to those he found at IOWA. In fact, that was a major attraction for him and his parents. It felt like home. He went to IOWA where he became a starter. He did the hard work that was required of him. He went on and played in the NFL. Did he experience racism in IOWA? According to him, yes. Did he experience racism at IOWA? Again, according to him, no. Now, my friend who played for Kirk in the NFL. And by playing for Kirk, I mean KF was his position coach. Daily interaction. On the field. Off the field. This man would call Kirk a racist POS to his face if given the opportunity. Hated the way Kirk treated OL differently, especially when it came to playing weights and diet restrictions. To date he believes Kirk did not trust his black OL to be disciplined enough to monitor and maintain a proper playing weight so he instituted a separate set of rules that only was applied to them. Fines and punishment for missing weight were different. "Grace" pounds were non-existent. Things like that.
2 different men. 2 different experiences. Football and Kirk were the only common themes. In my current work, part of my job responsibilities are to monitor and maintain proper adherence to civil rights of our partner agency network. One of the things we talk with them about is unintended discrimination. This, to me, is where Kirk failed. The "IOWA WAY" can be all about discipline, hard work, and respect and provided that is applied equally to everyone, most people can agree that it is not racist. However when the "IOWA WAY" starts to include things like dress, hair, and music under the auspices of being discipline, hard work, and respect, we allow for interpretation. And plainly said, different people will sometimes interpret the same things differently. Thusly opening the door for unintended discrimination.
#FWIW
2 different men. 2 different experiences. Football and Kirk were the only common themes. In my current work, part of my job responsibilities are to monitor and maintain proper adherence to civil rights of our partner agency network. One of the things we talk with them about is unintended discrimination. This, to me, is where Kirk failed. The "IOWA WAY" can be all about discipline, hard work, and respect and provided that is applied equally to everyone, most people can agree that it is not racist. However when the "IOWA WAY" starts to include things like dress, hair, and music under the auspices of being discipline, hard work, and respect, we allow for interpretation. And plainly said, different people will sometimes interpret the same things differently. Thusly opening the door for unintended discrimination.
#FWIW
The problem with that is a lot of the allegations were hijacked by bad actors with an axe to grind.
Your example of "hair" being an area they were strict in is not supported by evidence, as in fact there have been many black and white players with long hair throughout Kirk's tenure as head coach, ranging from starters to guys who never played.
I really doubt Kirk "approved" every word Doyle spoke. Get a grip on reality
Weird how brother Leshun had no complaints from anything I have heard or read.
Lol. Every player that didn't like their treatment could leave anytime. Dream world is where you live with frivolous lawsuits and soft society.
Everyone ones experiences are different. Idk if he was asked about anything in the aftermath, supported/corroborated other accounts either. And some guys just aren’t willing to rock the boat.
It’s just telling to me that James at least did go to Barta well before any of this became public…that he wasn’t someone who piled on after though.
Brian had as many complaints as Doyle did when that whole thing broke out, but he somehow got to stay. Hmm. Wonder why?!?! Brian would also be OC at Iowa right now had Beth not stepped in and fired him. Sorry if I don't think that a coach who protected his own son above all else has tons of integrity.
Do explain why it was settled before either Kirk or Brian sat for a deposition. If it was garbage, why didn't the UI simply produce Kirk and/or Brian for deposition and let them "tell it like it is?"
Part of what many do not understand is......... it is a coaches job to push you and make you into the best you can be. Since everyone is different, there can be no equal treatment. Like I said, explain to me calmly what it is you want from me and it is a done deal. My mission. Where as some people literally need someone walking around behind them telling them not to eat that. or to manage their time for them so they can hit the gym when they are supposed to. Some need tough love and words that make them angry to get fired up. Then there are those like me who are already fired up, because everything I approach in life is a mission. So again people are different and thus the support and "inspiration" they need to become the best they can be is different.
Exactly. Brian and Kirk can't handle the uncomfortable topics raised at their press conferences, so I can't imagine what adversarial depositions would have been like.
By that standard no coach has been fired in the last 10 years. Jimbo Fisher was also paid out his 70 million or whatever.
The competition between Howe and Miller to be Most Recalcitrant Racist From the Past reached levels of absurdity never before seen.
Plenty of Black players--and parents--were not only shocked at the allegations, but several parents reiterated that their kids said they saw none of it.
I've talked with both parents and players who said they NEVER saw the "racism" claimed by others regarding Doyle. One of the parents went further with, "I've lived with racism all my life. Kirk Ferentz isn't a racist in any sense of the word"
So, either they didn't see it, one of these groups is lying, or they saw it but didn't necessarily see what the other players went thru as racist behavior from Doyle.
I don't believe many players accused Kirk of being racist.
What if you have a dream and something seems racist in your dream?
JFC, you don't get. So, I'll answer a question with a question: is ignorance idiocy?
