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France won’t dine with Iran unless wine is served

cigaretteman

HB King
May 29, 2001
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BERLIN — Guess who’s not coming to dinner — or even breakfast or lunch?

Ahead of Iranian President Hassan Rouhani’s landmark European trip kicking off this weekend, French officials reportedly nixed plans for a formal meal in Paris with President François Hollande following a dispute over the menu. The Iranians, according to France’s RTL Radio, insisted on a wine-free meal with halal meat — a request based on Islamic codes that amounted to culinary sacrilege in France, a nation that puts the secular ideals of the Republic above all else.

The French, RTL said, counter offered with a presumably alcohol-free breakfast — which the Iranians promptly rejected because it appeared too “cheap.” The two leaders will now reportedly settle for a face-to-face chat next Tuesday.

The food fracas comes as Rouhani is staging his first official trip to Europe as president, one meant to herald Iran’s economic coming out after a long period of international sanctions. Rouhani will meet with Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi, Pope Francis and Italian companies in Rome on Saturday before moving on to France, where he is set to deliver a speech at the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), and meet with French officials and companies.

A spokeswoman for the Elysée Palace declined immediate comment on the wine and halal spat. But it captured an interesting moment, both for France and Iran. In the international negotiations to reach a historic deal over Iran’s nuclear program, France had taken one of the hardest lines, and Rouhani’s visit is meant as a rapprochement – though whether it will amount to that remains unclear.

For French industry, the stakes are high. Following the sweeping deal that would lift international sanctions in exchange for limits on Iran’s nuclear capability with strict monitoring, European companies and governments are tripping over themselves to court the Iranians. Italy, Germany and other nations have already dispatched trade missions and senior ministers to Tehran in preparation for what they hope will be a green light to turn on the spigots of investment early next year.

During a French trade mission to Iran in September, however, French executives complained that Paris’s hard stance had made it harder for them to win a piece of that pie.

But France is also in the grips of a domestic culture war, with its right wing raising alarms over “Islamification” that has spilled into its deep national relationship with food. The far-right National Front, for instance, has railed against the rise of kebab stands in the country of quiche.

By the same token, hardliners in Iran are pushing back against any suggestion that the nuclear deal will promote a broader opening with the West — making any photo ops showing the consumption of alcohol and non-halal meats out of the question.

Last week, the Daily Beast reported that Iranian Revolutionary Guards intelligence operatives have arrested five local journalists in recent days. That followed the recent arrest of Dubai-based Iranian-American Siamak Namazi, which brought to four the total of Americans with duel citizenship being held there, including Washington Post correspondent Jason Rezaian, who has been held for more than a year and was recently convicted after an espionage trial. The Post and international media groups say Rezaian is innocent and acted only as a journalist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...op-stories_wv-iranfrance-840pm:homepage/story
 
I really want to side with the French here, but good manners tells me the host should compromise to meet the needs of the guest.
 
I really want to side with the French here, but good manners tells me the host should compromise to meet the needs of the guest.

I disagree. Guests should be considerate and observe the cultural norms and traditions of the host. I doubt France is requiring the Iranians to drink wine, but the Iranians don't even want any in sight. That's rude.
 
Sounds like every family dinner I've ever had.

Yeah, there was a time when my uncle was on the wagon. The family didn't want anyone to bring alcohol for Thanksgiving to support him. Screw that! I had a cooler in the car and would chug down beers while outside having cigarettes.
 
I disagree. Guests should be considerate and observe the cultural norms and traditions of the host. I doubt France is requiring the Iranians to drink wine, but the Iranians don't even want any in sight. That's rude.
We disagree. When a host invites a guest knowing that guest needs certain accommodations, its incumbent on the host to try to meet the needs of the guest.
 
So if the meeting was in Iran, you would expect them to serve alcohol?
I would expect them to serve food that the French could eat. The Iranians can't eat the meal the French want to put in front of them. So the French should find a meal they can enjoy.
 
We disagree. When a host invites a guest knowing that guest needs certain accommodations, its incumbent on the host to try to meet the needs of the guest.

"Dear Abby" disagrees with you.

DEAR ABBY: My 10-year-old daughter and I enjoy hosting sleepovers for her friends from school. Over the last few years, her circle of friends has increased, as have the dietary needs of said friends. It went from simple meals like macaroni and cheese, pizza or hamburgers to parents requesting gluten-free cookies, soy milk, almond milk, and other demands that drive me crazy.

I'm willing to accommodate to a point, providing vegetarian options and no nuts, but for parents to demand that I spend (what seems like) hundreds of dollars on food my family and I never eat is insane.

The last time this happened, I asked the parent -- nicely -- to provide a small container that I could store in my fridge for the girl to use for her soy milk. The woman became irate, called me thoughtless and wouldn't let her daughter come! I don't know what I did wrong, but apparently I made some faux pas because the same thing happened with a different girl who wanted gluten-free everything.

Abby, what should I do or say in these situations? I usually provide snacks and such that fit most diets, but a lot of times the main course contains gluten, dairy, etc., and I don't want to go broke buying select types of food for one kid. -- SALLY IN WASHINGTON, D.C.


DEAR SALLY: You did nothing wrong. Asking the mother to have her daughter bring a quart of soy milk with her was not rude, and the same is true for the mother of the girl who has an intolerance for gluten. The parents of children with food allergies should be used to the routine of providing allowable foods for them to bring when they will be eating away from home, and for you to have received the reaction you did was over the top

http://www.uexpress.com/dearabby/2015/10/19/1/friends-food-allergies-make-daughters-sleepovers
 
"Dear Abby" disagrees with you.

DEAR ABBY: My 10-year-old daughter and I enjoy hosting sleepovers for her friends from school. Over the last few years, her circle of friends has increased, as have the dietary needs of said friends. It went from simple meals like macaroni and cheese, pizza or hamburgers to parents requesting gluten-free cookies, soy milk, almond milk, and other demands that drive me crazy.

I'm willing to accommodate to a point, providing vegetarian options and no nuts, but for parents to demand that I spend (what seems like) hundreds of dollars on food my family and I never eat is insane.

The last time this happened, I asked the parent -- nicely -- to provide a small container that I could store in my fridge for the girl to use for her soy milk. The woman became irate, called me thoughtless and wouldn't let her daughter come! I don't know what I did wrong, but apparently I made some faux pas because the same thing happened with a different girl who wanted gluten-free everything.

Abby, what should I do or say in these situations? I usually provide snacks and such that fit most diets, but a lot of times the main course contains gluten, dairy, etc., and I don't want to go broke buying select types of food for one kid. -- SALLY IN WASHINGTON, D.C.


DEAR SALLY: You did nothing wrong. Asking the mother to have her daughter bring a quart of soy milk with her was not rude, and the same is true for the mother of the girl who has an intolerance for gluten. The parents of children with food allergies should be used to the routine of providing allowable foods for them to bring when they will be eating away from home, and for you to have received the reaction you did was over the top

http://www.uexpress.com/dearabby/2015/10/19/1/friends-food-allergies-make-daughters-sleepovers
This is not on point. What the French are doing is the equivalent of serving cake to a diabetic. The Iranians can't enjoy the wine. They think its sinful. I thought you were for reasonable accommodations of this sort of thing? And the whole point of these diplomatic meets is to be gracious and form accords and understandings. Forcing a diabetic to sit there while everyone eats cake is rude. So it is if we change the cake to wine in this instance.

I thought southerners were supposed to be polite?
 
I would expect them to serve food that the French could eat. The Iranians can't eat the meal the French want to put in front of them. So the French should find a meal they can enjoy.
I don't think the French were going to force them to drink wine.

I've had people that don't drink or eat meat or gluten and been able accommodate them with depriving others of those things.

If I'm visiting another culture I will respect them and not expect them to change for me. I'm certainly not going to call them cheap when they offer to change the venue slightly to meet everyone's needs.
 
This is not on point. What the French are doing is the equivalent of serving cake to a diabetic. The Iranians can't enjoy the wine. They think its sinful. I thought you were for reasonable accommodations of this sort of thing? And the whole point of these diplomatic meets is to be gracious and form accords and understandings. Forcing a diabetic to sit there while everyone eats cake is rude. So it is if we change the cake to wine in this instance.

I thought southerners were supposed to be polite?
Hardly a valid analogy. If the Muslims were alcoholics then it would apply, but they are not. How do you feel about the Iranians refusing to have breakfast when the French offered that?
 
This is not on point. What the French are doing is the equivalent of serving cake to a diabetic. The Iranians can't enjoy the wine. They think its sinful. I thought you were for reasonable accommodations of this sort of thing? And the whole point of these diplomatic meets is to be gracious and form accords and understandings. Forcing a diabetic to sit there while everyone eats cake is rude. So it is if we change the cake to wine in this instance.

I thought southerners were supposed to be polite?

So all the kids have to eat gluten-free slop because of the kid with special needs? BS!
 
I would expect them to serve food that the French could eat. The Iranians can't eat the meal the French want to put in front of them. So the French should find a meal they can enjoy.

They could eat the meal, they just don't want to. There is a difference. That being said, people should try to work with each other, but leaders of countries tend to act like children.
 
So all the kids have to eat gluten-free slop because of the kid with special needs? BS!
Some of it isn't bad. At the last birthday party we had I served gluten free pasta. There were two children that actually have coeliac disease and would react badly to gluten. I wasn't gonna make separate batches so I just made all of the pasta gluten free. I also served rice based crackers and corn chips with the dips. There was plenty of stuff with gluten in it as well served. There's no reason why everyone can't be accomodated. None of the gluten free people were upset to see gluten as long as they had choices and that goes the same for the vegans, and non-drinkers.
 
Some of it isn't bad. At the last birthday party we had I served gluten free pasta. There were two children that actually have coeliac disease and would react badly to gluten. I wasn't gonna make separate batches so I just made all of the pasta gluten free. I also served rice based crackers and corn chips with the dips. There was plenty of stuff with gluten in it as well served. There's no reason why everyone can't be accomodated. None of the gluten free people were upset to see gluten as long as they had choices and that goes the same for the vegans, and non-drinkers.

That was nice of you to do that, but Dear Abby, the ultimate arbiter of civilized niceties, says it's not necessary.
 
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I don't think the French were going to force them to drink wine.

I've had people that don't drink or eat meat or gluten and been able accommodate them with depriving others of those things.

If I'm visiting another culture I will respect them and not expect them to change for me. I'm certainly not going to call them cheap when they offer to change the venue slightly to meet everyone's needs.
They aren't visiting another culture. They aren't tourists. They are invited guests. It's like serving pork to a Jew and telling him if he doesn't like it, just eat the salad and be happy about it. That would be rude.
 
Hardly a valid analogy. If the Muslims were alcoholics then it would apply, but they are not. How do you feel about the Iranians refusing to have breakfast when the French offered that?
I imagine the French would have insisted on bacon.
 
That was nice of you to do that, but Dear Abby, the ultimate arbiter of civilized niceties, says it's not necessary.

Just common courtesy, or "Southern Hospitality".

I will say that the parents of kids with special dietary needs always consult with my wife or I and offer to bring food for their own kids. They never ask or expect me to not serve something their kid can't have. They just ensure that their kid will be accomodated and always offer to do so themselves.

Luckily we don't have any friends with peanut, or tree nut allergies. That's one area where we really would have to restrict the items in question. But life threatening reactions mean a bit more than cultural or religious objections.
 
Just common courtesy, or "Southern Hospitality".

I will say that the parents of kids with special dietary needs always consult with my wife or I and offer to bring food for their own kids. They never ask or expect me to not serve something their kid can't have. They just ensure that their kid will be accomodated and always offer to do so themselves.

Luckily we don't have any friends with peanut, or tree nut allergies. That's one area where we really would have to restrict the items in question. But life threatening reactions mean a bit more than cultural or religious objections.
Why do you see that serving everyone gluten free so that all the kids feel the same is common courtesy here. But not see that serving everyone the same drink so that no one feels judged isn't the same?
 
It doesn't get uttered around here (or anywhere else for that matter) all that often, but hey, good for the French!
Iranian president is just another typical quran-thumper, insisting that everyone, regardless of their thoughts or beliefs or principles, should accommodate him by utterly and completely yielding to the restrictions imposed by his mythology.
 
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They aren't visiting another culture. They aren't tourists. They are invited guests. It's like serving pork to a Jew and telling him if he doesn't like it, just eat the salad and be happy about it. That would be rude.
Not sure that's quite the case here.

Oh well. I've actually spent a large amount of time with both cultures and both tend to be extremely gracious hosts. I will say on average the French tend to be a little more accomodating. Both take it as an insult when you don't accept their culture as is, but the Muslims tend to take it more seriously. On the other hand, Muslims are a bit more generous. In some cultures they are actually obligated to give you their possession if you express affection for it.

We have had a number of Muslims in our home and out to dinner with us and not once has one ever had a problem with our imbibing.
 
Not sure that's quite the case here.

Oh well. I've actually spent a large amount of time with both cultures and both tend to be extremely gracious hosts. I will say on average the French tend to be a little more accomodating. Both take it as an insult when you don't accept their culture as is, but the Muslims tend to take it more seriously. On the other hand, Muslims are a bit more generous. In some cultures they are actually obligated to give you their possession if you express affection for it.

We have had a number of Muslims in our home and out to dinner with us and not once has one ever had a problem with our imbibing.
Were you dining with the spiritual leader of the nation? I can't believe this is a hard concept. If i was hosting a priest, I wouldn't make out with my lover and crack altarboy jokes either. You clearly understand its the responsibility of the host to accommodate the guest. That's what the French are failing to do here.
 
It is a silly pissing match. I find it hard to believe that the Iranians really care if there is wine served. I mean it is the French and their loyalty to food and wine is maybe the only principle they truly stand behind. the Iranians could easily be above this which would indicate they see the simpleton nature in their hosts.
 
There's an obvious difference though.
Yes, to the rational, but manners aren't about reason. Manners are about respect. You get no one is asking this be illegal right? There is no big government program in mind. It's just about what is the polite thing to do.
 
We disagree. When a host invites a guest knowing that guest needs certain accommodations, its incumbent on the host to try to meet the needs of the guest.
But not the exclusion of other people. As an example if a vegan is invited to à meal where meat is served, the host should provide the guest with something meatless but not every one at the table should be required to eat the same. The Iranians are saying everyone else must abide by their rules for every one
 
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Why do you see that serving everyone gluten free so that all the kids feel the same is common courtesy here. But not see that serving everyone the same drink so that no one feels judged isn't the same?
I served beverages with choices for everyone.
Also my food choice was based on many factors and not everybody got the same dish. We also had burgers and hot dogs. All of the pasta as gluten free and I provided gluten free chips and crackers and some buns. I also provided wheat based crackers and buns for those who wanted them. I compromised not by restricting everyone, but by providing what everyone wanted. Now to have made a gluten rich meal and made some deal with just a salad would have been rude, but that's not what I did. Nor did I force everyone to go gluten free. It's not that hard. Honestly, providing for vegetarians is more difficult than gluten free, but I managed that as well. And in case your wondering, I did the catering myself, my wife doesn't really cook.
 
But not the exclusion of other people. As an example if a vegan is invited to à meal where meat is served, the host should provide the guest with something meatless but not every one at the table should be required to eat the same. The Iranians are saying everyone else must abide by their rules for every one
OK, turn that vegan into a Jew. Now imagine the whole point of the party was to show respect to that Jewish vegan. Are you thinking it would be polite and respectful to serve pork ribs to everyone and offer the Jewish vegan pasta?

It really should not be this hard to figure out the correct answer. I have a suspicion that if Obama was serving ham to Netanyahu, you would instantly get that this is rude.

(Note, pork is non-kosher and forbidden under Jewish dietary laws)
 
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I disagree. Guests should be considerate and observe the cultural norms and traditions of the host. I doubt France is requiring the Iranians to drink wine, but the Iranians don't even want any in sight. That's rude.
Sounds like my in-laws when I got married. No alcohol was allowed in the house, and I couldn't even talk about drinking without getting a kick from my wife to shut up. 5 years later and my MIL had a glass of wine every night and the FIL has a beer or two. I'm a pretty good influence on people. The French should bring me in to work on Iran. Not only will wine be served at dinner, but a keg will be tapped following and hookers and blow brought in.
 
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OK, turn that vegan into a Jew. Now imagine the whole point of the party was to show respect to that Jewish vegan. Are you thinking it would be polite and respectful to serve pork ribs to everyone and offer the Jewish vegan pasta?

It really should not be this hard to figure out the correct answer. I have a suspicion that if Obama was serving ham to Netanyahu, you would instantly get that this is rude.

(Note, pork is non-kosher and forbidden under Jewish dietary laws)

If Obama had a pulled-pork sandwich and Bibi was served something he was happy with, I fail to see the problem.
 
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