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Gold medalist Algerian Boxer Imane Khelif Files Legal Complaint Over Online Harassment Following Gender Outcry

Why do you have you never responded to this questions I asked earlier today?
I did, I said they should have reported the test. By law she doesn’t have to do anything, but by not coming forward with a XX DNA test, it lets the story keep cooking. I’m guessing the people who would need to be tested are those in or past puberty who are accused, with the caveat that the accuser or some governing body pay for the test.
 
I did, I said they should have reported the test. By law she doesn’t have to do anything, but by not coming forward with a XX DNA test, it lets the story keep cooking. I’m guessing the people who would need to be tested are those in or past puberty who are accused, with the caveat that the accuser or some governing body pay for the test.
Not that question. the ones that followed.

Do you think every female athlete should be required to have a chromosome test? At what age should we start testing girls before they are allowed to compete?
 
Not that question. the ones that followed.

Do you think every female athlete should be required to have a chromosome test? At what age should we start testing girls before they are allowed to compete?
I literally answered that… ones accused, but it would have to be after puberty has begun. Make the accuser or governing body pay for the test. I’m betting Swyer syndrome being caught early could prevent some later heartache in regards to fertility expectations. I would not require a test to compete unless , and this is just off the cuff, there are accusations. This is a difficult situation to navigate.
 
I literally answered that… ones accused, but it would have to be after puberty has begun. Make the accuser or governing body pay for the test. I’m betting Swyer syndrome being caught early could prevent some later heartache in regards to fertility expectations. I would not require a test to compete unless , and this is just off the cuff, there are accusations. This is a difficult situation to navigate.
So in this case, she was not credibly advised by a competitor or a governing body. We just have masses with "concerns". So in this case, no testing would be warranted.
 
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So in this case, she was not credibly advised by a competitor or a governing body. We just have masses with "concerns". So in this case, no testing would be warranted.
She was banned by a different organization, enough to require a test. Her competitors were accusing her.
 
She was banned by a different organization, enough to require a test.
But that would seem to require her to know why she was banned with them releasing the test and then having that result potentially validated, not a potentially corrupt org banking her without releasing a test, thereby requiring her to test into perpetuity.
 
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I literally answered that… ones accused, but it would have to be after puberty has begun. Make the accuser or governing body pay for the test. I’m betting Swyer syndrome being caught early could prevent some later heartache in regards to fertility expectations. I would not require a test to compete unless , and this is just off the cuff, there are accusations. This is a difficult situation to navigate.
Doesn't sound like a plan that protects all women like many claim to be their concern. You can't have it both ways either you want to make sure all athletes are "real girls" or you want to pick and choose according to looks and/or talent.
 
But that would seem to require her to know why she was banned with them releasing the test and then having that result potentially validated, not a potentially corrupt org banking her without releasing a test, thereby requiring her to test into perpetuity.
One test from her ends it, either way
 
Doesn't sound like a plan that protects all women like many claim to be their concern. You can't have it both ways either you want to make sure all athletes are "real girls" or you want to pick and choose according to looks and/or talent.
It’s still keeping the talent pool all biological females, xx,xxy. It’s still a separate category for someone who is xy and has gonads that produce testosterone. It’s unfair to the person with that condition, it’s also unfair to the other female athletes. It’s a no win
 
One test from her ends it, either way
So she should fund it, contrary to your other commentary. She has the gold medal and the IOC hasn't raised any concerns, neither have any of her opponents, so not sure what she has to end here. Does she is owe *you* something?
 
It’s still keeping the talent pool all biological females, xx,xxy. It’s still a separate category for someone who is xy and has gonads that produce testosterone. It’s unfair to the person with that condition, it’s also unfair to the other female athletes. It’s a no win
There have been examples of people accusing girls of being trans just because the don't have the right "look." You're advocating for being able to challenge someone's biological sex just because they aren't "pretty" enough. Even if the accuser has to pay and the accused can refuse the test the stigma will remain. Do you want people to be able to call for a nine year old to prove their sex?


A 9-year-old girl competed at a track meet. A man questioned her gender.

 
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There have been examples of people accusing girls of being trans just because the don't have the right "look." You're advocating for being able to challenge someone's biological sex just because they aren't "pretty" enough. Even if the accuser has to pay and the accused can refuse the test the stigma will remain. Do you want people to be able to call for a nine year old to prove their sex?
No, let’s move it to collegiate athletics

A 9-year-old girl competed at a track meet. A man questioned her gender.

 
@ClarindaA's -No, let’s move it to collegiate athletics


Sure that will work until someone starts complaining that they lost the chance at a scholarship because of someone they don't believe is a "real girl." Also what happens if an athlete is recruited and signs a scholarship only to be challenged to be tested and ends up not being able to play?

Face it, opening up disqualification due to unknown genetic factors is not going to work. Let's just stick with the original definition that all of you clamoring for, sex at birth. Much easier to define and easier to prove.
 
@ClarindaA's -No, let’s move it to collegiate athletics


Sure that will work until someone starts complaining that they lost the chance at a scholarship because of someone they don't believe is a "real girl." Also what happens if an athlete is recruited and signs a scholarship only to be challenged to be tested and ends up not being able to play?

Face it, opening up disqualification due to unknown genetic factors is not going to work. Let's just stick with the original definition that all of you clamoring for, sex at birth. Much easier to define and easier to prove.
We are specifically talking about XY with testosterone producing gonads. Otherwise we agree.
 
We are specifically talking about XY with testosterone producing gonads. Otherwise we agree.
These experts don't think it's as straight forward as you believe:

Prof Jonathan Seckl OBE FRCPE FMedSci FRSE, Moncrieff-Arnott Professor of Molecular Medicine and Professor of Endocrinology, University of Edinburgh, said:

“These are general comments about the topic and not specific to either of the athletes as we don’t know any detail about their cases.

“The problem for the sports regulators is that simple chromosomal analysis (i.e. does the individual have a Y chromosome?) or simple measurements of testosterone (are levels elevated above the female reference range?) are far from sufficient to define female versus male.

“The classical example is ‘androgen insensitivity syndrome’. In the full blown syndrome, an XY individual has testes and plenty of testosterone in the blood, but this testosterone doesn’t work because the receptors for the hormone are genetically mutated and thus defective. Affected individuals are fully female (apart from having ectopic testes – meaning not in the usual location; they can be internal, in the groin, or apparent labia majora – and high testosterone levels) from conception. But there are milder forms of this syndrome which show reduced testosterone action but don’t abrogate this completely. Such individuals vary in appearance and capacity. The genetics and testosterone levels do NOT resolve whether the subject has a male or a female body.

“Then there are not so rare masculinizing conditions in genetic females such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia. These patients have a genetic disorder which typically drives higher than normal testosterone levels but are XX females. In these subjects the testosterone levels are a fair guide to their “androgenisation”, but they vary with treatment and a host of other factors. Difficult to build rules here.

“And none of this takes account of the intracellular enzymes that activate or inactivate sex steroids inside the body’s cells. Some press reports have mentioned 5alpha-reductase type 2 deficiency. This rare syndrome is best reported in the Güevedoces in the Dominican Republic. Affected XY individuals are apparently female at birth because they can’t activate sufficient testosterone to the much more potent dihydrotestosterone to masculine in utero and thus appear female (the default gender in the absence of masculinizing hormones). However, they have testes in what appear to be labia. At puberty, the testes produce much more testosterone sufficient to activate receptors and masculinize the child. Such subtleties are beyond the capacity of most regulatory bodies to accommodate.

“Overall, I suspect that this is all too difficult for the sports bodies to contemplate.”



Prof Alun Williams FBASES FTPS, Professor of Sport and Exercise Genomics, Manchester Metropolitan University Institute of Sport, said:

“The kinds of advantageous physical effects of elevated testosterone during normal male puberty include a larger skeleton meaning increased height and limb length, increased muscle mass and strength, increased size of organs such as the heart and lungs, and elevated blood haemoglobin concentration that helps deliver oxygen to muscles during exercise. Consequently, without separate male and female categories in sport, almost all success in sport would be achieved by males.

“However, when it comes to athletes with a DSD, there is almost zero direct evidence about their possible advantage over others who compete in the female category of sport. One can infer what kind of advantage some of those athletes might have, but there’s a lot of guesswork involved. That’s because there are many different types of DSD, and even within each type, the precise genetic cause someone has – which is often unique – will influence whether and to what extent their physical development relevant to sport has been affected. I wouldn’t be surprised if some athletes with some types of DSD have some advantages in sport, but the extent of that will vary, and some will probably have no advantage at all.

“Excluding some athletes with a DSD from the female category of sport without strong evidence they have an advantage is wrong in principle, and sport organizations are vulnerable to costly and embarrassing legal challenges if their testing procedures are not based on strong evidence.

“That’s why, if testing is adopted to identify whether any advantage exists, it should be as accurate as possible. Perfect accuracy is probably impossible, but robust testing would at least have to include genetics (in great detail, not just whether someone has a Y chromosome), hormones (testosterone and others), the sensitivity of the body to hormones like testosterone, and perhaps sport-related physical performance and anthropometric tests. In particular, assessing the sensitivity of the body to hormones like testosterone is highly questionable in ethical terms, because it involves invasive assessment of reproductive system characteristics like distribution of body hair, depth of voice, breast and clitoris size, and so on. There’s also the consequence of having to reveal life-changing personal information to athletes. For no purpose other than personal healthcare does such testing currently take place, so using it for sport purposes would be extraordinary.

“So those very significant ethical problems need to be weighed against any perceived benefit of using such tests. Those who do not consider athletes with DSDs to be women, or who prioritize the interests (including fairness and safety during competition) of the majority of female competitors over the interests of the minority of athletes with DSDs, tend to conclude that the problems with testing are acceptable. Others who consider athletes with DSDs brought up as girls/women to be women, and thus equate the interests of athletes with DSDs with those of all other women, tend to conclude that testing is not justified.”




 
One more:

Prof Ashley Grossman FMedSci, Emeritus Professor of Endocrinology, University of Oxford, said:

“We don’t know the details of the two athletes in question so we can’t make assumptions about what sex or gender tests they have or haven’t passed or failed in the past or at present.

“Some journalists are asking questions about DSD, or differences in sexual development, so here are some comments on what that is – though again I don’t know whether the athletes in question have this or not.

“Differences in sexual development (DSD) are extremely rare but are probably underdiagnosed and more common than we think. DSD is a whole class of differences – it doesn’t just mean one thing – and DSD is not a diagnosis in itself.

“The process of sexual development and differentiation is long and complex. We have the karyotype (which set of chromosomes we have), which determines the gonads that form during development, which then typically make internal sexual organs and then external sexual organs. External sexual organs usually develop father during puberty due to a rise in sex hormones, both male and female sex hormones. In the majority of people these changes are ‘consonant’, which means they proceed along a fairly constant trajectory, or line, such that the biological and hormonal changes are typically male or female. It should be emphasized that this development says nothing about gender identity or sexual orientation.

“But things go differently in some people, sometimes due to a genetic change, and they can have a ‘difference in sexual development’. If someone is diagnosed with a DSD they may be offered surgery or hormone treatment. Some people aren’t diagnosed until adulthood, but in many cases changes are seen in the neonatal period or childhood leading to investigation. Pediatric endocrinologists in particular are trained to deal sensitively with such patients to optimize their sense of themselves and their lives.

“When it comes to elite sport, it is up to the IOC and other bodies to make decisions as to how these things are dealt with. There may be an argument for not giving all athletes a baseline XX/XY sex chromosome test but only when there is a query to then test individuals, because there are all sorts of possibilities why someone might have certain sex chromosomes and an appearance that might be different.

“Not all DSD lead to higher (or lower) levels of hormones like testosterone – this depends on the specific condition.

“Adult male levels of testosterone do have an advantage when it comes to strength – testosterone levels in men and women can overlap, but even in women with polycystic ovarian syndrome (who may have slightly higher levels of testosterone than the average woman) the overlap is usually small. So a female with testosterone levels in the adult male range would likely have a strength advantage over other females. If someone has gone through male puberty they would – on average – have a strength advantage in female power sports, even if they then have low testosterone levels.

“But it’s not necessarily the case that having XY chromosomes in DSD always means someone goes through male puberty. Some individuals who have DSD and XY chromosomes would be given female hormones. Simply having the chromosomes doesn’t always mean people would have the expected testosterone levels.

“Some types of DSD would likely lead to advantages in sport, but it’s impossible to generalise. There is one type of DSD previously called testicular feminisation, now better called ‘complete or partial androgen insensitivity’ – where such individuals have male chromosomes (XY) but they lack the testosterone receptor and appear female as they don’t go through typical male puberty, so physically they are female. There is another type of DSD called 5-alpha reductase deficiency – these individuals would also have XY chromosomes but they usually would go through male puberty so would usually have higher levels of testosterone (some previous athletes with this condition have been required to take hormones to lower their testosterone levels to be eligible to compete, but this is a complex area).

“These are just two examples of DSD – there are many more, and we don’t know whether the athletes in question have these or indeed any other DSD.

“These issues are important for bodies like the IOC to address, in consultation with experts, but they are not straightforward.”

 
Might be fun to fwd a few usernames on here to French officials...



It’s up to the defendant to prove if a statement is true, instead of a plaintiff having to prove a statement is false.
Elon Musk & JK Rowling and others named in the lawsuit must prove - in a few days - that what they said is true.
 
Might be fun to fwd a few usernames on here to French officials...



It’s up to the defendant to prove if a statement is true, instead of a plaintiff having to prove a statement is false.
Elon Musk & JK Rowling and others named in the lawsuit must prove - in a few days - that what they said is true.
 
Might be fun to fwd a few usernames on here to French officials...



It’s up to the defendant to prove if a statement is true, instead of a plaintiff having to prove a statement is false.
Elon Musk & JK Rowling and others named in the lawsuit must prove - in a few days - that what they said is true.
I believe Elon was in France when he wrote some of the comments. Smart.
 
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