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Haves and Have-nots

DutchyFunStar

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Aug 8, 2014
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ESPN/Scout have ranked the top 32 players in the upcoming NFL draft. Six of them belong to Ohio State. That is 19% or 1 in 5 of potential first round picks a Buckeye. I was at the Bobby f$@##& Olive game. I hate them as much as the next guy, but that is pretty impressive. Urban may have the secret sauce but if he can't sustain that success his 'health issues' may just creep back again.
 
ESPN/Scout have ranked the top 32 players in the upcoming NFL draft. Six of them belong to Ohio State. That is 19% or 1 in 5 of potential first round picks a Buckeye. I was at the Bobby f$@##& Olive game. I hate them as much as the next guy, but that is pretty impressive. Urban may have the secret sauce but if he can't sustain that success his 'health issues' may just creep back again.

Actually you could make a solid argument that with that kind of talent it's bad coaching as to why he wasn't winning the BIG
 
Actually you could make a solid argument that with that kind of talent it's bad coaching as to why he wasn't winning the BIG
He did make a few somewhat negative comments toward his OC after the loss to MSU....His staff lost something when Tom Herman left for Houston...
Herman>Warriner..
 
I can appreciate the fact Urban wins wherever he goes ... The flipside, he is recruiting a different sort of player ... many who have absolutely no intention of getting a degree ... Urban may be a popular coach ... He may be a player's coach (to his players) ... but he doesn't scream integrity ... But, he wins ... and that is where we are at with college athletics ... Being a "student" is secondary now to being a good football player and generating wins on the field ... That college football cash cow is too big now for schools to ignore (meaning ... we will sacrifice doing it the right way if it leads to wins) ...
 
I can appreciate the fact Urban wins wherever he goes ... The flipside, he is recruiting a different sort of player ... many who have absolutely no intention of getting a degree ... Urban may be a popular coach ... He may be a player's coach (to his players) ... but he doesn't scream integrity ... But, he wins ... and that is where we are at with college athletics ... Being a "student" is secondary now to being a good football player and generating wins on the field ... That college football cash cow is too big now for schools to ignore (meaning ... we will sacrifice doing it the right way if it leads to wins) ...
I think it has been this way for alot of programs for a long time..Maybe more programs are willing to join the "fray" now...but, skids have been greased at many schools for decades..in the name of wins..
 
I think it has been this way for alot of programs for a long time..Maybe more programs are willing to join the "fray" now...but, skids have been greased at many schools for decades..in the name of wins..
Agree ... It's nothing really new, per se ... I was just alluding to the explosion of college football money (tv contracts; conference alignments) ... Now more than ever, teams want their piece of the pie ... Some coaches go about it the right way (i.e. Kirk) ... and some are more cut-throat coaches (i.e. Urban and Harbaugh) ...
 
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I can appreciate the fact Urban wins wherever he goes ... The flipside, he is recruiting a different sort of player ... many who have absolutely no intention of getting a degree ... Urban may be a popular coach ... He may be a player's coach (to his players) ... but he doesn't scream integrity ... But, he wins ... and that is where we are at with college athletics ... Being a "student" is secondary now to being a good football player and generating wins on the field ... That college football cash cow is too big now for schools to ignore (meaning ... we will sacrifice doing it the right way if it leads to wins) ...

That made me curious. This is a bit of a shocker: How 'bout them Northwestern Wildcats!!!

Here are your rankings in order of graduation rate, via ABC27.com.

1. Stanford – 99%
2. Notre Dame – 93%
3. UCLA – 89%
4. Alabama – 86%
5. TCU – 84%
6. Clemson – 84%
7. Temple – 82%
8. Ohio State – 82%
9. Florida – 78%
10. Baylor – 74%
11. Texas A&M – 74%
12. Toledo – 73%
13. Florida State – 73%
14. Memphis – 72%
15. Mississippi State – 72%
16. Michigan – 72%
17. Iowa – 71%
18. LSU – 70%
19. Utah – 69%
20. Michigan State – 66%
21. Oklahoma – 65%
22. North Carolina – 62%
23. Ole Miss – 60%
24. Houston – 56%
25. Oklahoma State – 54%
*Percentages rounded to nearest whole number
 
I'm surprised Alabama is that high. I suppose they have a lot of people who ride the bench for 2 or 3 years before making contributions as a junior and senior.
 
For instance, I blame you for the Rose Bowl loss.
you may be right as I did not wear the same shit that I wore all season on game day, and that is the only time I wore that shirt as it was my luck game day hawkeye shirt:(
 
That made me curious. This is a bit of a shocker: How 'bout them Northwestern Wildcats!!!

Here are your rankings in order of graduation rate, via ABC27.com.

1. Stanford – 99%
2. Notre Dame – 93%
3. UCLA – 89%
4. Alabama – 86%
5. TCU – 84%
6. Clemson – 84%
7. Temple – 82%
8. Ohio State – 82%
9. Florida – 78%
10. Baylor – 74%
11. Texas A&M – 74%
12. Toledo – 73%
13. Florida State – 73%
14. Memphis – 72%
15. Mississippi State – 72%
16. Michigan – 72%
17. Iowa – 71%

18. LSU – 70%
19. Utah – 69%
20. Michigan State – 66%
21. Oklahoma – 65%
22. North Carolina – 62%
23. Ole Miss – 60%
24. Houston – 56%
25. Oklahoma State – 54%
*Percentages rounded to nearest whole number
Yea I too looked that up northwestern is what 5 years straight at 97%. Here is the rest of the big ten
Cohort
Year
Institution Conference Sport State GSR FGR GSR
Rpt
FGR
Rpt

2008 University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign Big Ten Conference Football IL 70 53
2008 Indiana University, Bloomington Big Ten Conference Football IN 76 65
2008 University of Iowa Big Ten Conference Football IA 71 56
2008 University of Maryland, College Park Big Ten Conference Football MD 75 63
2008 Michigan State University Big Ten Conference Football MI 66 47
2008 University of Michigan Big Ten Conference Football MI 72 63
2008 University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Big Ten Conference Football MN 69 54
2008 University of Nebraska, Lincoln Big Ten Conference Football NE 85 70
2008 Northwestern University Big Ten Conference Football IL 97 93
2008 The Ohio State University Big Ten Conference Football OH 81 64
2008 Pennsylvania State University Big Ten Conference Football PA 81 69
2008 Purdue University Big Ten Conference Football IN 76 65
2008 Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, New Brunswick Big Ten Conference Football NJ 83 60
2008 University of Wisconsin, Madison Big Ten Conference Football WI 71 58
 
That made me curious. This is a bit of a shocker: How 'bout them Northwestern Wildcats!!!

Here are your rankings in order of graduation rate, via ABC27.com.

1. Stanford – 99%
2. Notre Dame – 93%
3. UCLA – 89%
4. Alabama – 86%
5. TCU – 84%
6. Clemson – 84%
7. Temple – 82%
8. Ohio State – 82%
9. Florida – 78%
10. Baylor – 74%
11. Texas A&M – 74%
12. Toledo – 73%
13. Florida State – 73%
14. Memphis – 72%
15. Mississippi State – 72%
16. Michigan – 72%
17. Iowa – 71%

18. LSU – 70%
19. Utah – 69%
20. Michigan State – 66%
21. Oklahoma – 65%
22. North Carolina – 62%
23. Ole Miss – 60%
24. Houston – 56%
25. Oklahoma State – 54%
*Percentages rounded to nearest whole number

Those numbers don't necessarily mean much. Perhaps Northwestern won't compromise their academic standards for their "student athletes" like at other schools. I'll be honest just because you got your degree doesn't mean you earned it in the traditional sense. Some schools give certain "student athletes" a lot more assistance with their academic work (i.e. someone doing the work for them) than at other schools.

Then of course you have North Carolina and that's a whole horse of a different color.
 
ESPN/Scout have ranked the top 32 players in the upcoming NFL draft. Six of them belong to Ohio State. That is 19% or 1 in 5 of potential first round picks a Buckeye. I was at the Bobby f$@##& Olive game. I hate them as much as the next guy, but that is pretty impressive. Urban may have the secret sauce but if he can't sustain that success his 'health issues' may just creep back again.
They might have had 1 more if he hadn't gotten in trouble-DE, Noah Spence...Currently ranked as a top 5 DE prospect by Mike Mayock.. He transferred from OSU to Eastern Kentucky..
 
That made me curious. This is a bit of a shocker: How 'bout them Northwestern Wildcats!!!

Here are your rankings in order of graduation rate, via ABC27.com.

1. Stanford – 99%
2. Notre Dame – 93%
3. UCLA – 89%
4. Alabama – 86%
5. TCU – 84%
6. Clemson – 84%
7. Temple – 82%
8. Ohio State – 82%
9. Florida – 78%
10. Baylor – 74%
11. Texas A&M – 74%
12. Toledo – 73%
13. Florida State – 73%
14. Memphis – 72%
15. Mississippi State – 72%
16. Michigan – 72%
17. Iowa – 71%

18. LSU – 70%
19. Utah – 69%
20. Michigan State – 66%
21. Oklahoma – 65%
22. North Carolina – 62%
23. Ole Miss – 60%
24. Houston – 56%
25. Oklahoma State – 54%
*Percentages rounded to nearest whole number
I see these numbers and they don't mean much. These schools can make players eligible and can get them through the system. Just look at North Carolina and some of the classes it pushed some of its players through despite some players having the reading level of a 6th grader ... Honestly, these graduation numbers don't mean a thing ...
 
I see these numbers and they don't mean much. These schools can make players eligible and can get them through the system. Just look at North Carolina and some of the classes it pushed some of its players through despite some players having the reading level of a 6th grader ... Honestly, these graduation numbers don't mean a thing ...

So if a football player has a degree it means nothing? All these schools make it up? I had no idea. Is this why a school like Northwestern didn't make the top 25?

Also, I know nothing about this. Do the schools cheat on this because the NCAA monitors it? Appreciate your insight.
 
So if a football player has a degree it means nothing? All these schools make it up? I had no idea. Is this why a school like Northwestern didn't make the top 25?

Also, I know nothing about this. Do the schools cheat on this because the NCAA monitors it? Appreciate your insight.

No, not saying every school does this ... No, not saying a football player with a degree is worthless ... I am saying that certain schools will find ways to keep players eligible and that just because they walk away with the piece of paper saying they graduated they still may not be any smarter than when they entered school ...

Example of what is happening at North Carolina:

"The scandal largely concerns the university’s Department of African and Afro-American Studies, which is accused of offering sham independent-study “paper classes.” Athletes made up a disproportionate number of the students in these classes, with players from the football, and men’s and women’s basketball teams enrolling in large numbers. The NCAA’s Notice of Allegations says players were “steered” to those classes by advisors in the athletics department, and that it was common for players to receive high grades regardless of the quality of their work."
 
No, not saying every school does this ... No, not saying a football player with a degree is worthless ... I am saying that certain schools will find ways to keep players eligible and that just because they walk away with the piece of paper saying they graduated they still may not be any smarter than when they entered school ...

Example of what is happening at North Carolina:

"The scandal largely concerns the university’s Department of African and Afro-American Studies, which is accused of offering sham independent-study “paper classes.” Athletes made up a disproportionate number of the students in these classes, with players from the football, and men’s and women’s basketball teams enrolling in large numbers. The NCAA’s Notice of Allegations says players were “steered” to those classes by advisors in the athletics department, and that it was common for players to receive high grades regardless of the quality of their work."

I'm dumb enough to think this is the exception, not the rule. But also I don't lose sight of the fact that most kids who navigate college pick certain professors and find a few easy classes to lighten the load at times. I certainly wouldn't expect athletes to be different.
 
I'm dumb enough to think this is the exception, not the rule. But also I don't lose sight of the fact that most kids who navigate college pick certain professors and find a few easy classes to lighten the load at times. I certainly wouldn't expect athletes to be different.
This is from a Washington Post article ... My entire point is this: College athletics is a big time business now more than ever. And schools will do what they need to do to compete and in order to compete they need the best athletes ... and many times those athletes may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer but the schools ensure they are kept eligible to play ...

Do you see Saturday’s Final Four game between Syracuse and the University of North Carolina as an embodiment of some of the larger problems in college sports?

What it embodies is the extent to which the bargain between the university and the student is a corrupt bargain for the student. Because in both cases, but especially the UNC case, at the heart of it was what they call academic fraud. Basically, the athletes at UNC were not getting a legitimate education. They were taking these fake classes to stay eligible — they were majoring in eligibility. At Syracuse, for all the time they spent investigating, ultimately the main bad thing that happened was that an academic counselor took a test for Fab Melo, which is also a form of academic fraud. They embody the way the system deprives athletes — especially football and men’s basketball players — of the education that they’re promised.

Has the NCAA’s handling of the punishments relating to these cases exposed its underlying profit motive?

Well, of course. Take the example down in Louisville, where they self-imposed a penalty to try and lighten the load. Or at Ohio State, where they basically said players got impermissible benefits, but they weren’t going to get penalized until the following season because they had to play in the Sugar Bowl where there was a lot of money at stake. UNC is sort of the same thing. It’s hard to believe that the NCAA doesn’t already know what it’s going to do, what the problem is, but here we are in the Final Four, and everybody’s going to try to ignore it until they get through it and all they money is made. The ACC is getting somewhere around $40 million because of their success in this tournament.


A classic defense that you hear from supporters of the NCAA is that the scholarship athletes are getting a free education and thus don’t deserve additional compensation. How do you respond to that line of thinking?

I think it’s off-base for two reasons. The first is that athletes should have rights. Part of those rights are economic rights. They should get what their value is. Most of them won’t go pro. They have this tiny window to make some money on their athletic ability and they’re deprived of that.

So you could say, “OK, they’re getting a scholarship that’s going to be worth a couple hundred thousand dollars, and more importantly, they’re going to get an education.” But the truth is that when you’re a college athlete — especially if you’re a football or men’s basketball player — you are on the campus to generate revenue for the university. That’s your job, and that comes before academics every time. You don’t get to pick the majors that you want, you don’t get to pick the classes that you want, you miss tons of classes because you’re traveling. That’s what you’re there for. So the idea that they’re supposed to be satisfied with an education, which is basically substandard at best, is kind of a fraudulent argument.
 
This is from a Washington Post article ... My entire point is this: College athletics is a big time business now more than ever. And schools will do what they need to do to compete and in order to compete they need the best athletes ... and many times those athletes may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer but the schools ensure they are kept eligible to play ...

Do you see Saturday’s Final Four game between Syracuse and the University of North Carolina as an embodiment of some of the larger problems in college sports?

What it embodies is the extent to which the bargain between the university and the student is a corrupt bargain for the student. Because in both cases, but especially the UNC case, at the heart of it was what they call academic fraud. Basically, the athletes at UNC were not getting a legitimate education. They were taking these fake classes to stay eligible — they were majoring in eligibility. At Syracuse, for all the time they spent investigating, ultimately the main bad thing that happened was that an academic counselor took a test for Fab Melo, which is also a form of academic fraud. They embody the way the system deprives athletes — especially football and men’s basketball players — of the education that they’re promised.

Has the NCAA’s handling of the punishments relating to these cases exposed its underlying profit motive?

Well, of course. Take the example down in Louisville, where they self-imposed a penalty to try and lighten the load. Or at Ohio State, where they basically said players got impermissible benefits, but they weren’t going to get penalized until the following season because they had to play in the Sugar Bowl where there was a lot of money at stake. UNC is sort of the same thing. It’s hard to believe that the NCAA doesn’t already know what it’s going to do, what the problem is, but here we are in the Final Four, and everybody’s going to try to ignore it until they get through it and all they money is made. The ACC is getting somewhere around $40 million because of their success in this tournament.


A classic defense that you hear from supporters of the NCAA is that the scholarship athletes are getting a free education and thus don’t deserve additional compensation. How do you respond to that line of thinking?

I think it’s off-base for two reasons. The first is that athletes should have rights. Part of those rights are economic rights. They should get what their value is. Most of them won’t go pro. They have this tiny window to make some money on their athletic ability and they’re deprived of that.

So you could say, “OK, they’re getting a scholarship that’s going to be worth a couple hundred thousand dollars, and more importantly, they’re going to get an education.” But the truth is that when you’re a college athlete — especially if you’re a football or men’s basketball player — you are on the campus to generate revenue for the university. That’s your job, and that comes before academics every time. You don’t get to pick the majors that you want, you don’t get to pick the classes that you want, you miss tons of classes because you’re traveling. That’s what you’re there for. So the idea that they’re supposed to be satisfied with an education, which is basically substandard at best, is kind of a fraudulent argument.
This is from a Washington Post article ... My entire point is this: College athletics is a big time business now more than ever. And schools will do what they need to do to compete and in order to compete they need the best athletes ... and many times those athletes may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer but the schools ensure they are kept eligible to play ...

Do you see Saturday’s Final Four game between Syracuse and the University of North Carolina as an embodiment of some of the larger problems in college sports?

What it embodies is the extent to which the bargain between the university and the student is a corrupt bargain for the student. Because in both cases, but especially the UNC case, at the heart of it was what they call academic fraud. Basically, the athletes at UNC were not getting a legitimate education. They were taking these fake classes to stay eligible — they were majoring in eligibility. At Syracuse, for all the time they spent investigating, ultimately the main bad thing that happened was that an academic counselor took a test for Fab Melo, which is also a form of academic fraud. They embody the way the system deprives athletes — especially football and men’s basketball players — of the education that they’re promised.

Has the NCAA’s handling of the punishments relating to these cases exposed its underlying profit motive?

Well, of course. Take the example down in Louisville, where they self-imposed a penalty to try and lighten the load. Or at Ohio State, where they basically said players got impermissible benefits, but they weren’t going to get penalized until the following season because they had to play in the Sugar Bowl where there was a lot of money at stake. UNC is sort of the same thing. It’s hard to believe that the NCAA doesn’t already know what it’s going to do, what the problem is, but here we are in the Final Four, and everybody’s going to try to ignore it until they get through it and all they money is made. The ACC is getting somewhere around $40 million because of their success in this tournament.


A classic defense that you hear from supporters of the NCAA is that the scholarship athletes are getting a free education and thus don’t deserve additional compensation. How do you respond to that line of thinking?

I think it’s off-base for two reasons. The first is that athletes should have rights. Part of those rights are economic rights. They should get what their value is. Most of them won’t go pro. They have this tiny window to make some money on their athletic ability and they’re deprived of that.

So you could say, “OK, they’re getting a scholarship that’s going to be worth a couple hundred thousand dollars, and more importantly, they’re going to get an education.” But the truth is that when you’re a college athlete — especially if you’re a football or men’s basketball player — you are on the campus to generate revenue for the university. That’s your job, and that comes before academics every time. You don’t get to pick the majors that you want, you don’t get to pick the classes that you want, you miss tons of classes because you’re traveling. That’s what you’re there for. So the idea that they’re supposed to be satisfied with an education, which is basically substandard at best, is kind of a fraudulent argument.

Complement #2 to you Dad. I follow your point and no doubt it is applicable. The article did alter my perspective. Thanks.
 
That made me curious. This is a bit of a shocker: How 'bout them Northwestern Wildcats!!!

Here are your rankings in order of graduation rate, via ABC27.com.

1. Stanford – 99%
2. Notre Dame – 93%
3. UCLA – 89%
4. Alabama – 86%
5. TCU – 84%
6. Clemson – 84%
7. Temple – 82%
8. Ohio State – 82%
9. Florida – 78%
10. Baylor – 74%
11. Texas A&M – 74%
12. Toledo – 73%
13. Florida State – 73%
14. Memphis – 72%
15. Mississippi State – 72%
16. Michigan – 72%
17. Iowa – 71%

18. LSU – 70%
19. Utah – 69%
20. Michigan State – 66%
21. Oklahoma – 65%
22. North Carolina – 62%
23. Ole Miss – 60%
24. Houston – 56%
25. Oklahoma State – 54%
*Percentages rounded to nearest whole number

I am curious as to how they consider the players that enter early for the NFL draft. For example look at OSU this year and all of the early entrants. I have a hard time many of them will be back within the next couple of years to earn their degree. Are they left out of the equation? Also, are guys that transfer included or removed from the percentages?
 
I can appreciate the fact Urban wins wherever he goes ... The flipside, he is recruiting a different sort of player ... many who have absolutely no intention of getting a degree ... Urban may be a popular coach ... He may be a player's coach (to his players) ... but he doesn't scream integrity ... But, he wins ... and that is where we are at with college athletics ... Being a "student" is secondary now to being a good football player and generating wins on the field ... That college football cash cow is too big now for schools to ignore (meaning ... we will sacrifice doing it the right way if it leads to wins) ...

It was that way in Columbus long before Urban Meyer got there.
 
I am curious as to how they consider the players that enter early for the NFL draft. For example look at OSU this year and all of the early entrants. I have a hard time many of them will be back within the next couple of years to earn their degree. Are they left out of the equation? Also, are guys that transfer included or removed from the percentages?

Good question. I'm sure some one on HR is qualified to answer that.
 
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