Hayden Vs Kirk who is the better coach?

[BigNUFan51]

Id probably go with Kirk.Hayden was a little rough around the edges. Kirk has a similar decorum to Dr Tom.

Kirk also coached during a tougher era in Big Ten football.

Thoughts?

 

[Hawkeyeinsoutherncalifornia]

Hayden, he brought this program from the depths of Hell compared to what KF has done plus he took them to 3 Rose Bowls

 

[Stoops41]

Hayden had a vision that Kirk knows nothing about. He had the spread offense going in 1979. People act like it’s new today.

 

[BlackNGoldBleeder]

Id probably go with Kirk.Hayden was a little rough around the edges. Kirk has a similar decorum to Dr Tom.

Kirk also coached during a tougher era in Big Ten football.

Thoughts?

This argument could go either way.

I will say, though, your statement about the different eras is true but misleading. Kirk has played quite a few soft conference schedules. This year e.g. he has missed Ohio State, Michigan, and Michigan State. That didn't happen in Hayden's day.

 

[soybean]

Hayden had to rebuild the Iowa program from the ground up. It's true that Hayden allowed the program to slip while he was battling cancer(along with Bobby Elliott I might say) while also suffering some key coaching staff losses as well, but what he did was nothing short of a minor miracle IMHO.

Comparing them means that one must be diminished. Kirk and Hayden have both carved out spots of honor in Hawkeye Football history IMHO.

 

[Wasnt-drunk-didnt-troll]

Have you ever seen Hayden's "coaching tree"?

Have you ever seen Kirk's?

Coach KF is a great dude and pretty good coach. Hayden was larger than life for me, I was born in '85, one of my earliest favorite memories is the sun Bowl where "we" $hit kicked Texas tech.

 

[Qued18]

Hayden

So many of his coaches went on to successful careers
Should have boogalooed 2 seasons before he did.
Hope Kirk doesn't make the same mistake

 

[Ripcord280]

Hayden Fry is better, and it is not even a close call.

I could write a book about the subject, but for the sake of brevity, I will let the above suffice.

 

[icwesthawk]

Give me Hayden, any day over Kirk, night and day, IMHO

 

[mick82]

Give me Hayden, any day over Kirk, night and day, IMHO

I’ll take Evy over both and it’s not even close!!!

 

[TheTruthTheWholeTruth]

Hayden but could you imagine this hissy fit this board would have thrown from 1988-1998:

72-53

“Sure we have a good season every three years or so but the majority of the time we’re mediocre at best.” Good times!

 

[Franisdaman]

Hayden is a hall of famer and an Iowa legend.

However, Hayden had a lot of down years, which people seem to have forgotten about.

After 1985, when Iowa was ranked number one in the country, you would think that Hayden would have consistently won at least eight games per season. He failed. Big time. Just like Kirk has failed to consistently win 8 or more games every year.

The internet had not been invented back then, either. Hayden would have not handled the message boards and all of the social media noise. Hell, he had enough problems with criticism coming out of physical newspapers.

Hayden left the program in a mess. Look at the facility improvements under Kirk. I am pretty confident that Kirk will leave the program in a much better place than what Hayden did. And that's significant in my opinion.

 

[HawkIDrummer]

 

[HawkIDrummer]

Hayden left the program in a mess./QUOTE]

False.

Hayden left the roster a little thin. The program and facilities were light years better than what he took over. He fought like hell to make it all happen...from a joke to one of the most recognizable brands in college football.

And of course the facilities are better now...every P5 program in the country has done major upgrades in the past 20 years. TV money has made that possible.

 

[ctghawk]

Hayden had to rebuild the Iowa program from the ground up. It's true that Hayden allowed the program to slip while he was battling cancer(along with Bobby Elliott I might say) while also suffering some key coaching staff losses as well, but what he did was nothing short of a minor miracle IMHO.

Comparing them means that one must be diminished. Kirk and Hayden have both carved out spots of honor in Hawkeye Football history IMHO.

Ditto

 

[Franisdaman]

Hayden left the roster a little thin? I remember going to the game at Michigan State (KF's 1st year) and for Iowa to get a first down was quite the accomplishment. Our offensive line couldn't open up a hole for a running back and they couldn't hold back the rush when trying to pass. We got sacked more times than I can remember. Michigan State fans felt sorry for us.

You consider the bubble an improvement in facilities??

You are rewriting history.

 

[Hawk68]

Hayden- personality, charisma, resurrected the program, Tiger Hawk, great at I-club meetings, exotic plays, great judge of asst. coaches.

He did stay too long and left the cupboard bare.

Kirk is a great business man; Hayden was a great showman.

 

[j0nnyhb_Prime]

Both great coaches. KF is coaching in a tougher era IMO. HF was an inovator and had to completely build the program. KF brought the program back and has been fantastic at developing players. They did things differently but they always had the same core beliefs (strong defense, balance on O and strong line play).

Hard for me to choose.

BTW Iowa kicked the crap out of Washington in the Sun Bowl . I think we only played Texas Tech in the Alamo.

 

[Cowboy4262]

Just watched the highlights of Iowa beating UCLA in 81 and a game I was at..that was the year I really started falling in love with Iowa football. Hayden was the man then and still a legend. Kirk has been very good but Hayden was able to put together a coaching staff that was amazing. Most everyone of those guys went on to bigger and better things. KF's staff has been good but not many have gone on to be much of anything.

Hayden

 

[Cowboy4262]

Both great coaches. KF is coaching in a tougher era IMO. HF was an inovator and had to completely build the program. KF brought the program back and has been fantastic at developing players. They did things differently but they always had the same core beliefs (strong defense, balance on O and strong line play).

Hard for me to choose.

BTW Iowa kicked the crap out of Washington in the Sun Bowl . I think we only played Texas Tech in the Alamo.

Only a millennial would say KF was coaching in a tougher era! lol...there was Bo at Michigan, Woody at OSU, MSU was tough, Illinois had Mike White...Purdue was ranked high then...so the era then was as tough

 

[pacnorthhawkeye]

 

[HawkOn15]

Why can’t we compare fruit?

 

[Kinnick.At.Night]

Ferentz.

 

[Kinnick.At.Night]

Hayden but could you imagine this hissy fit this board would have thrown from 1988-1998:

72-53

“Sure we have a good season every three years or so but the majority of the time we’re mediocre at best.” Good times!

Absolutely this.

 

[HawkIDrummer]

Hayden left the roster a little thin? I remember going to the game at Michigan State (KF's 1st year) and for Iowa to get a first down was quite the accomplishment. Our offensive line couldn't open up a hole for a running back and they couldn't hold back the rush when trying to pass. We got sacked more times than I can remember. Michigan State fans felt sorry for us.

You consider the bubble an improvement in facilities??

You are rewriting history.

I'm "rewriting history"? You're apparently forgetting it.

There was no indoor practice facility when Hayden arrived. He insisted we needed one and it got built. That would be an upgrade...and a fact.

As I said, every major program has upgraded in the last 10-15 years including Iowa. TV money has much to do with that. If your point is that Hayden "only" got the bubble built you're making the mistake of evaluating 35 year old events by today's metrics. It's a very different landscape.

If you're really a Hawkeye fan, it's hard to believe that you aren't aware of the incredible turn around Hayden performed with Iowa football. If you're too young to have been around then (which may be the case) dig a little, talk with people who saw it first hand. It's a great story.

Whether you think Kirk or Hayden are/were better coaches...is a separate debate. Hayden's rejuvenation of the program is historic fact.

 

[Kinnick.At.Night]

In fairness to how Fry left the program, he was sort of battling cancer. Secretly.

 

[cmcrule]

Hayden completely rebuilt a culture. That is far and away a much tougher task.

 

[TJHawkeye]

What I loved about Hayden was that you never ever knew what he was going to do on the field. KF is much more predictable.

 

[WhoaNellieCy]

What I loved about Hayden was that you never ever knew what he was going to do on the field. KF is much more predictable.

Ya, he was a unpredicatable. He also assembled an amazing staff, Barry Alvarez, Bill Snyder, Dan McCarney, Kirk Ferentz, others in his a peak run. He was character with those a white pants, sunglasses and mustache, and texas expressions. Ferentz looks/acts more like an nfl coach.

 

[K OKeefe]

If I was going to hire a new coach today and the final two candidates were Kirk Ferentz and Hayden Fry both in their prime. I would hire Hayden Fry over Kirk Ferentz any day of the week. I remember how down trodden and how much of a laughing stock the Iowa Hawkeyes were when Hayden took over. Give me Hayden!!!

 

[Franisdaman]

In fairness to how Fry left the program, he was sort of battling cancer. Secretly.

And I would argue he did not know when to step down.

 

[Franisdaman]

I'm "rewriting history"? You're apparently forgetting it.

There was no indoor practice facility when Hayden arrived. He insisted we needed one and it got built. That would be an upgrade...and a fact.

As I said, every major program has upgraded in the last 10-15 years including Iowa. TV money has much to do with that. If your point is that Hayden "only" got the bubble built you're making the mistake of evaluating 35 year old events by today's metrics. It's a very different landscape.

If you're really a Hawkeye fan, it's hard to believe that you aren't aware of the incredible turn around Hayden performed with Iowa football. If you're too young to have been around then (which may be the case) dig a little, talk with people who saw it first hand. It's a great story.

Whether you think Kirk or Hayden are/were better coaches...is a separate debate. Hayden's rejuvenation of the program is historic fact.

Hayden is a Hall of Fame coach, like I said. He did turn around the Iowa program, no doubt about it, but he did not have consistent success.

The bubble was a bandaid put over a major open wound issue that never got fixed until Kirk arrived. You can spin that anyway you want but Kirk saw the problems in the program and they have been fixed during his 20 years as HC. And that's a fact.

Hayden never had consistent success. His last 11 years were UP and DOWN, and that's a fact, no matter how you try and spin it. And look at his record over his last 11 years at Iowa. He would have been murdered on the message boards from 1988 thru 1998 with these records:

6-4-3: 1988
5-6-0: 1989
5-7-0: 1992
6-6-0: 1993
5-5-1: 1994
8-4-0: 1995
9-3-0: 1996
7-5-0: 1997
3-8-0: 1998

Hayden's last 11 years were unacceptable by today's message board standards. Hayden left with the program a mess. Luckily Kirk was able to clean up Hayden's mess and get things turned around.

Look at the Iowa program today. There is no double Kirk will leave it much better than how he found it. And he will know when it's time for him to leave, unlike Hayden.

Bottom line: If people are gonna bash and nit pick Kirk for his flaws, then we have to be honest about Hayden, too.

 

[JEDN]

Evy and Fry with Ferentz a distant third. Fry was a great innovator who brought Iowa FB back from the dead.Fry’s coaching tree is one of the best ever while the Ferentz tree is almost non existent. IMO not even close.

 

[Franisdaman]

Only a millennial would say KF was coaching in a tougher era! lol...there was Bo at Michigan, Woody at OSU, MSU was tough, Illinois had Mike White...Purdue was ranked high then...so the era then was as tough

there was only the Big 2 to conquer back then

Now? there is so much parity and there are no givens. Look at Purdue this year; Ohio State never saw that coming.. Northwestern, Iowa State and Wisconsin were an easy 3 wins in Hayden's time; Now? not so much. Not even close.

It was definitely easier to win games back in Hayden's time.

But guess what? For every 3 games Hayden won he lost 2. Again, Hayden would have been crucified on the message boards because of the lack of consistent winning.

 

[Franisdaman]

Hayden left the roster a little thin.

I still can't believe you said that Hayden left the roster "a little thin."

A little thin? Were you paying attention during Hayden's last 2 years and Kirk's first 2? That was a painful 4 years!

That's 4 years of a big old mess that Kirk had to clean up.

 

[HawkIDrummer]

Hayden is a Hall of Fame coach, like I said. He did turn around the Iowa program, no doubt about it, but he did not have consistent success.

The bubble was a bandaid put over a major open wound issue that never got fixed until Kirk arrived. You can spin that anyway you want but Kirk saw the problems in the program and they have been fixed during his 20 years as HC. And that's a fact.

Hayden never had consistent success. His last 11 years were UP and DOWN, and that's a fact, no matter how you try and spin it. And look at his record over his last 11 years at Iowa. He would have been murdered on the message boards from 1988 thru 1998 with these records:

6-4-3: 1988
5-6-0: 1989
5-7-0: 1992
6-6-0: 1993
5-5-1: 1994
8-4-0: 1995
9-3-0: 1996
7-5-0: 1997
3-8-0: 1998

Hayden left with the program a mess. Luckily Kirk was able to clean up Hayden's mess and get things turned around.

Look at the Iowa program today. There is no double Kirk will leave it much better than how he found it. And he will know when it's time for him to leave, unlike Hayden.

Bottom line: If people are gonna bash and nit pick Kirk for his flaws, then we have to be honest about Hayden, too.

The Big Ten records for KFz the last 10 and Hayden's last ten aren't that different 46-32 and 48-38...589 and .600 So by your logic the program is pretty close to a mess now too.

You could certainly make a case that Hayden should have stepped down prior to 1998. That was a lost season, for several reasons including his health. But his teams went 7-5 (a season that earns a bonus for Kirk) 9-3 and 8-4 in the seasons prior. Hardly a "mess".

What Hayden inherited was a mess. What Kirk inherited was a depleted roster and a program that needed fresh energy. But it was a far, far cry from the trainwreck and national punchline that Fry walked into in 1979.

 

[Hawk_4shur]

When I hear the word "coach", I think X's and O's, technique, teaching, strategy.

I like KF. Smart, high integrity and class - really good football coach.

But, when the Hawks hired HF, they hired a CEO. Sure, he knew football of course, but he was skilled in building a program. Assistant coaches, marketing, the media, working with the administration. He used his Psychology degree more than his football mind.

If you weren't around in the 70's (I went to UofI 1973-1977), it's hard to describe how bad the football program was. They had some talented players, but not even close to enough of them. The players were often an embarrassment on campus, not just on the field. Bad students, no class, no professionalism - it was ridiculous. I watched a TE take a piss off the canopy at the main library. Ty Dye was practically illiterate. It was really difficult to beat Butch Caldwell (QB) to the bars after the game.

The fans attended the game because there was nothing else to do - there was more drinking in the stands than at most bars.

Hayden changed everything. Tiger Hawk, people started buying a wearing Hawkeye gear everywhere, pink locker room, the Swarm, stand-up TE's. He took a 5th string DB and made him starting QB (Phil Seuss). The product on the field actually LOOKED like a football for the first time in a couple of decades. Strength and conditioning - Iowa actually overpowered some teams! The whole thing felt like going to the movies - you were sure that it wasn't real.

He had people convinced he was the riverboat gambler - he was going to run the statue of Liberty out of our own end zone. Most of the time he was actually pretty conservative.

Then, of course, there was that unbelievable staff he put together!

Hayden Fry was no ordinary football coach. He was the Leader and Savior of the football program.

 

[Franisdaman]

The Big Ten records for KFz the last 10 and Hayden's last ten aren't that different 46-32 and 48-38...589 and .600 So by your logic the program is pretty close to a mess now too.

You could certainly make a case that Hayden should have stepped down prior to 1998. That was a lost season, for several reasons including his health. But his teams went 7-5 (a season that earns a bonus for Kirk) 9-3 and 8-4 in the seasons prior. Hardly a "mess".

What Hayden inherited was a mess. What Kirk inherited was a depleted roster and a program that needed fresh energy. But it was a far, far cry from the trainwreck and national punchline that Fry walked into in 1979.

You should have been in the Metrodome in 1998 when the players gave up and the Gophers destroyed us. It was sad, embarrassing and pathetic.

You should have been at Michigan State in 1999. Plaxico Burress destroyed us. Nick Saban even made comments about Iowa's lack of talent on the roster. The MSU fans felt sorry for us (and they were laughing with us; yes, Iowa had become a punchline) because getting a first down rarely occurred in that game.

I would say that 1998 and 1999 were both train wrecks. And who led Iowa off the tracks? Hayden Fry.

You honestly think this message board (if it had existed) would be happy with the last 11 years of Hayden's tenure?

I love Hayden. I love Kirk. Hayden is in the Hall of Fame. Many say Kirk belongs there too. But I am not afraid to be critical of either.

 

[scarletred]

From a outsider, Hayden had the most difficult situation much more than KF.

Iowa had 17 non winning season in a row before Hayden arrived and took Iowa to 3 Rose bowls and gave Iowa their iconic look with the Tigerhawk helmet..

Fry was also a river boat gambler and took more chance’s. Given Ferentz has been more unpredictable lately but may be attributed to his faith in his son calling plays..

 

[HemiHawk]

Hayden is a Hall of Fame coach, like I said. He did turn around the Iowa program, no doubt about it, but he did not have consistent success.

The bubble was a bandaid put over a major open wound issue that never got fixed until Kirk arrived. You can spin that anyway you want but Kirk saw the problems in the program and they have been fixed during his 20 years as HC. And that's a fact.

Hayden never had consistent success. His last 11 years were UP and DOWN, and that's a fact, no matter how you try and spin it. And look at his record over his last 11 years at Iowa. He would have been murdered on the message boards from 1988 thru 1998 with these records:

6-4-3: 1988
5-6-0: 1989
5-7-0: 1992
6-6-0: 1993
5-5-1: 1994
8-4-0: 1995
9-3-0: 1996
7-5-0: 1997
3-8-0: 1998

Hayden's last 11 years were unacceptable by today's message board standards. Hayden left with the program a mess. Luckily Kirk was able to clean up Hayden's mess and get things turned around.

Look at the Iowa program today. There is no double Kirk will leave it much better than how he found it. And he will know when it's time for him to leave, unlike Hayden.

Bottom line: If people are gonna bash and nit pick Kirk for his flaws, then we have to be honest about Hayden, too.

I see you "conveniently" left out 90 and 91.