Hayden Vs Kirk who is the better coach?

[cidhawkeye]

I grew up in that era. Northwestern and Wisconsin were total zeroes. MSU was occasionally tough. Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota and Purdue were mixed bags.

What years do you consider to be that era?

 

[hawkifann]

What years do you consider to be that era?

Largely the 1980s. One could absolutely credit Fry with the idea of breaking up the Big 2, but I don't think it's really debatable that the B1G is a better conference today.

 

[blhawk]

Let's actually talk facts about the thin rosters.
The roster that Kirk inherited included:
Three WRs who would play in the NFL. How many more has Kirk put in the NFL in 20 years?
A running back who would play nine years in the NFL. Iowa hasn't had a RB last longer since. A FB who would last one year in the NFL.
A TE who would play one year and spend two more on practice squads. A TE who would play six season in the NFL. Another TE who would play 11 NFL seasons and in the Pro Bowl.
An OG who would play nine years in the NFL and in the Pro Bowl. Another OG who would last three seasons. A Center/OG who be a 2nd round pick and have his career cut short by injuries. Another OG who would hang around the NFL for three years.
A DE who would play 10 years in the NFL and in the Pro Bowl. Another DL who would play five years in the NFL. Another DL who would be an NFL practice squad player. Another DT who would last a year in the NFL.
A LB who would play for seven years in the NFL.
A safety who would play in the league for seven seasons. Another safety who would play three years in the NFL. A CB who would play one year in the NFL.
A punter who would be in the league for 12 seasons.

I am not sure if Gallery and Clauss were committed to Fry before he retired so I am not even counting them. Since Gallery's brother played for Fry guessing (but not sure) that he had committed to Fry.

Fry inherited:
An OT who was drafted but never played in the NFL.
A multiple-time Pro Bowl center who played 13 years in the NFL.
A RB who was drafted by the NFL, but never played in a game.
A TE who was drafted but I don't think he ever played in a game. (Swift) I have a vague memory of watching him on TV, but cannot find any record online of him playing in a game.
An NFL Hall of Fame LB. (His first year at Iowa was with Fry, but Bernie Wyatt had "placed" him at Ellsworth the previous year so I guess he counts as being inherited.)
A DT who played five seasons in the NFL.

I am sure I might have missed someone on either roster who had an NFL cup of coffee (and almost overlooked Hilgenberg!), but you should get the picture. Ferentz inherited much more talent ( and he certainly deserves credit for developing it) than Fry.
And, oh by the way, Iowa had been in bowl games three of the four years before Ferentz arrived. Iowa hadn't had a winning record the 17 seasons before Fry arrived.

Thanks for setting him straight. Just because Kirk came with no name recognition and it took a few years to build on what he inherited, doesn't mean he didn't inherit a respectable amount of talent. Sure there were lots of holes on roster then but lots of NFL guys too. We were ranked in top ten in 97 before losing at #7 Ohio St and blowing 21-7 halftime lead at #5 Michigan back to back weeks. What the two coaches inherited isn't even comparable. Hayden built us from nothing. Kirk restored the respectability but 9-3 in 96 is better than what Kirk does today.

Hayden's last decade definitely had warts, just like Kirk's. Very comparable careers but no doubt Hayden's build was tougher. I'm guessing a new coach might not love what he'd inherit at RB, WR, interior OL, LB, punter, kicker today

 

[HawkGem11]

Id probably go with Kirk.Hayden was a little rough around the edges. Kirk has a similar decorum to Dr Tom.

Kirk also coached during a tougher era in Big Ten football.

Thoughts?

Hayden and it is not even close...

 

[JoelBittner]

Hayden and it is not even close...

I would go with Hayden because the totality is important. Hayden Fry put his neck on the line and recruited a black player to his SMU team in the early 1960s. To put that in perspective IIRC Bear Bryant didn't allow black players on his team till 1970. Would Kirk risk his career in similar fashion? I can't see it.

 

[C/Seahawk]

Id probably go with Kirk.Hayden was a little rough around the edges. Kirk has a similar decorum to Dr Tom.

Kirk also coached during a tougher era in Big Ten football.

Thoughts?

Hayden and it isn't even close.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

Largely the 1980s. One could absolutely credit Fry with the idea of breaking up the Big 2, but I don't think it's really debatable that the B1G is a better conference today.

me too. I grew up in that era. although I really didn't start watching till 86 with hartleib. I missed the chuck long era due to me racing bmx all over the freakin state of iowa on Saturdays . then I started to go to games in 1991 under fry. I think fry was all around the better coach. well rounded . solid. I think kf is more like a better offensive coordinator or something. better at the new era after fry obvuiously. but if you talk about the salesman , pr guy, coordinator, manager, politician, all around, whole package, it's fry

 

[BlazinHawk]

Hayden changed an entire culture. Perhaps the greatest turnaround in College Football history. 17 straight non winning seasons. One of the two or three worst teams in the country. Laughing stock.

When the turnaround happened, he did this, since others want to diminish ALL of his glory years:

81---- 8-3, 6-2 Big Ten
82----7-4, 6-2 Big Ten
83----9-2, 7-2 Big Ten
84----7-4-1, 5-3-1 Big Ten
85----10-1, 7-1 Big Ten
86----8-3, 5-3 Big Ten
87----9-3, 6-2 Big Ten
88----6-3-3, 4-1-3 Big Ten
89----5-6, 3-5 Big Ten
90----8-3, 6-2 Big Ten
91----10-1, 7-1 Big Ten

Roughly averaged 6-2 every single season. 10 out of eleven Bowl games.

From nothing. NOTHING.

It's not even close. JHF gets a pass for playing like Kirk his last seven years simply for his resurrection of this program.

 

[BetterLuckNextTime]

You should have made a poll to accurately and effectively show voting results. But since you didn't: Hayden, because he knew that the objective of games is to win, unlike the clown we have now.

 

[BigNUFan51]

Hayden seemed like a jerk. Kirk is a much nicer guy with better coaching decorum.

Appreciate the feedback. Obviously Hayden was a great coach.

 

[JoelBittner]

Hayden seemed like a jerk. Kirk is a much nicer guy with better coaching decorum.

Appreciate the feedback. Obviously Hayden was a great coach.

A rival fan trolling this board seems like a jerk thing to do. Annnnd now to hit the ignore button

 

[cidhawkeye]

Largely the 1980s. One could absolutely credit Fry with the idea of breaking up the Big 2, but I don't think it's really debatable that the B1G is a better conference today.

The 80's may not have been the hey days but they were decent.
Average of 2.6 teams ranked at the end of each year
Average of 4.4 teams ranked at some point in time. Believe that this was during the top 20 era rather than 25.
Bowl winning % was 44% vs. 40% in the 2000-2009 decade
9 teams made bowls including Illannoy 4, Indiana 3, Purdue 2, Minnesota 2, Wisconsin 3 and then the regulars. Wisconisn was solid early in the decade going 28-18 and 3 bowls until Hayden took the region over.
I think there is some debate that the differences aren't as significant as some people think.

 

[hawkifann]

The 80's may not have been the hey days but they were decent.
Average of 2.6 teams ranked at the end of each year
Average of 4.4 teams ranked at some point in time. Believe that this was during the top 20 era rather than 25.
Bowl winning % was 44% vs. 40% in the 2000-2009 decade
9 teams made bowls including Illannoy 4, Indiana 3, Purdue 2, Minnesota 2, Wisconsin 3 and then the regulars. Wisconisn was solid early in the decade going 28-18 and 3 bowls until Hayden took the region over.
I think there is some debate that the differences aren't as significant as some people think.

I think Fry, Alvarez and Tiller wildly changed the B1G forever. As you point out, there were upticks here and there, but those three coaches showed that you could build a consistent winner that would occasionally challenge Michigan and OSU. Of course we've also added PSU (some prime Paterno years early) and Nebraska. There's just more pressure to win now and so much more money.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I think Fry, Alvarez and Tiller wildly changed the B1G forever. As you point out, there were upticks here and there, but those three coaches showed that you could build a consistent winner that would occasionally challenge Michigan and OSU. Of course we've also added PSU (some prime Paterno years early) and Nebraska. There's just more pressure to win now and so much more money.

Keep going. Alvarez was at Iowa and ND in the 80's. Coincidence that Wisconsin dropped as Iowa ascended? The Big 2 was going away in the 80's, Hayden led the charge but with scholarship limits in place it was going to happen either way. More pressure? So-so, money? Indeed. More awareness? Tons. Don't tell Fran anything positive about Hayden, he hates that.