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Hegseth cutting Milley’s security detail, eyes stripping him of star

I appreciate that, and I 100% agree; if Milley truly gave China classified or sensitive intel, that’s treason and should be prosecuted. No argument there. My concern is whether we can trust the process to be fair and not just a political hit job. Given Trump’s open desire for revenge, it’s hard to believe Milley (or anyone in his crosshairs) would get a legitimate hearing. Heck, I think he'd deport me for not voting for him if he could get away with it.

That’s why I think an unbiased investigation is key. Not Twitter trials, not political theater...just a serious, fact-driven process to determine if there’s an actual fire behind the smoke. If the evidence is there, prosecute. But if this turns into just another partisan $hitshow, that’s a dangerous road.
Exactly. We don't need 4 years of "Jack Smith is gonna get him" 😃.



Without a crowd look into it and don't pull the trigger unless you know you have a kill shot.

And you bring up a good point, make it fair, neutral, unequivocally fair, so if the trial does happen, nobody doubts the outcome
 
I hear what you're saying, but a conversation is one thing where as disobeying an order (which didn't happen) would have been entirely different. From a "neutral" perspective, one could say Miley had set the stage for potentially violating a direct order.

Additionally, it’s not like his actions are completely unprecedented. If you recall, in 1974 (my glorious birth year!) SECDEF Schlesinger took it upon himself to intercept nuclear launch orders out of concern over Nixon’s instability...clearly without the president’s direction. Admiral Crowe also engaged in Cold War backchannel talks with the Soviets that weren’t always explicitly authorized by Reagan. I'm sure there are others.
Sure but the fact there are others historically, does not make it ok. Having backdoor conversations outside the chain of command isnt acceptable.

This sends a very clear and direct message that this sort of conduct will not be tolerated because obviously Milley expected it would be.
 
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the reporting that all this is based on says that he did this at the direction of secretary of defense esper (who, as far as i can tell, would have been above milley in the chain of command)
Then hearings need to be held. He should name names. If he was under orders, the one that issued them should be held accountable then.
 
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I disagree. Content, intent and context is key.
The thing is, we aren't talking about Milley being told, or taking it upon himself, to cancel orders for some military ordinance that was needed.

He was told, or took it upon himself, to have conversations with a known enemy, promising to let them know if orders were given he felt to be incorrect.

The Army relies on chain of command. Soldiers, no matter rank, all answer to the CIC and superiors. They cannot act unilaterally especially specifically stating that Presidential orders to attack China, would result in warning China in advance.

This is not his pay grade. Period.

Would I agree with a nuclear attack on China? I don't know. I'm sure I'd be very hesitant. But there was no such order and giving China the idea that you, or your superiors, are going to act independent of the President is treason.

If the order was given, and the chain of command felt it unlawful, and they then reached out to China, we would discuss that.

But that isn't what happened. They told China in advance they would contradict trumps orders. What message does that send to China about our military, resolve, chain of command and respect for the office of President? Nothing good that's for sure.
 
But that isn't what happened. They told China in advance they would contradict trumps orders. What message does that send to China about our military, resolve, chain of command and respect for the office of President? Nothing good that's for sure.
He said that?

His instructions were to de-escalate the situation. He apparently did so, successfully. I have no problem telling the Chinese what they need to hear to avoid a conflict.

Truth be told, I’m sure what Milley was signaling was “Look, I know Trump is an ignorant, impulsive, moron. We all know it. But don’t worry, there are adults in the room. We’re not looking going to war.”
 
The thing is, we aren't talking about Milley being told, or taking it upon himself, to cancel orders for some military ordinance that was needed.

He was told, or took it upon himself, to have conversations with a known enemy, promising to let them know if orders were given he felt to be incorrect.

The Army relies on chain of command. Soldiers, no matter rank, all answer to the CIC and superiors. They cannot act unilaterally especially specifically stating that Presidential orders to attack China, would result in warning China in advance.

This is not his pay grade. Period.

Would I agree with a nuclear attack on China? I don't know. I'm sure I'd be very hesitant. But there was no such order and giving China the idea that you, or your superiors, are going to act independent of the President is treason.

If the order was given, and the chain of command felt it unlawful, and they then reached out to China, we would discuss that.

But that isn't what happened. They told China in advance they would contradict trumps orders. What message does that send to China about our military, resolve, chain of command and respect for the office of President? Nothing good that's for sure.
You are oversimplifying and leaving a lot out of your assertions.

- Milley testified under oath that his conversations were routine and that multiple officials were aware of them. If he had outright promised to defy the President and alert China of an attack, that would likely have triggered immediate action from the White House or the Pentagon.

- Also, you're not considering that "Treason" has a strict legal definition (providing aid and comfort to enemies during wartime), which Milley’s actions do not meet.

I'll just leave you with my final thoughts. Milley’s actions were unusual and could be seen as overstepping his role, but calling it outright treason is a stretch. Your argument assumes he acted unilaterally, but evidence suggests his calls were coordinated and intended to prevent miscalculation between two nuclear powers. That said, I'll admit there is a valid concern (not partisan rage) about the precedent this sets as military officials should not be in a position where they feel the need to bypass or undermine civilian leadership. Hopefully future SECDEFs, CJCS, high ranking officials will consider Miley's actions before making their own.
 
He said that?

His instructions were to de-escalate the situation. He apparently did so, successfully. I have no problem telling the Chinese what they need to hear to avoid a conflict.

Truth be told, I’m sure what Milley was signaling was “Look, I know Trump is an ignorant, impulsive, moron. We all know it. But don’t worry, there are adults in the room. We’re not looking going to war.”
Providing an opinion regarding the CIC, while serving under him, to a foreign adversary like the CCP is insubordination. Period.

If you can't see this I cant help you.

I wouldn't talk shit to a competing company about the head of my department, while working for it, and I'm just a guy doing a job.
Everyone knows that if one did such a thing, and it got back to your boss, you'd be fired immediately. People here are so blinded by politics it's crazy. Have some common sense.
 
You are oversimplifying and leaving a lot out of your assertions.

- Milley testified under oath that his conversations were routine and that multiple officials were aware of them. If he had outright promised to defy the President and alert China of an attack, that would likely have triggered immediate action from the White House or the Pentagon.

- Also, you're not considering that "Treason" has a strict legal definition (providing aid and comfort to enemies during wartime), which Milley’s actions do not meet.

I'll just leave you with my final thoughts. Milley’s actions were unusual and could be seen as overstepping his role, but calling it outright treason is a stretch. Your argument assumes he acted unilaterally, but evidence suggests his calls were coordinated and intended to prevent miscalculation between two nuclear powers. That said, I'll admit there is a valid concern (not partisan rage) about the precedent this sets as military officials should not be in a position where they feel the need to bypass or undermine civilian leadership. Hopefully future SECDEFs, CJCS, high ranking officials will consider Miley's actions before making their own.
I disagree on some points sure but appreciate the reasoned logical response. It is a nice change of pace for around here.

Agree on the treason part. See prior replies. Maybe insubordination or violation of the chain of command or whatever term applies.
 
alaska guy itt

giphy.gif
 
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I disagree on some points sure but appreciate the reasoned logical response. It is a nice change of pace for around here.

Agree on the treason part. See prior replies. Maybe insubordination or violation of the chain of command or whatever term applies.
I've made it pretty clear my stance isn't we have to agree, let's just have a reasonable, respectful dialog. I grow tired of presenting a thought-out response then get a deflection, called a name or ignored & then the person just moving on to another flame-throwing spam thread (I'm not accusing you of that, just speaking in a general sense).
 
I've made it pretty clear my stance isn't we have to agree, let's just have a reasonable, respectful dialog. I grow tired of presenting a thought-out response then get a deflection, called a name or ignored & then the person just moving on to another flame-throwing spam thread (I'm not accusing you of that, just speaking in a general sense).
100%.
 
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Only it MAGA land can you defend an alcoholic talk show host and tear down this guy:
Milley has held multiple command and staff positions in eight divisions and units, including 5th Special Forces Group and 10th Mountain Division, throughout his military career. He served as a commander of ODA 543, a 12-man combat diver-qualified Special Forces team. He commanded 1st Battalion, 506th Infantry, 2nd Infantry Division, in South Korea from 1996 to 1998.[21][22] He served as commander of 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 10th Mountain Division (Light) from December 2003 to July 2005; deputy commanding general for operations of the 101st Airborne Division from July 2007 to April 2008, and as commanding general of the 10th Mountain Division from November 2011 to December 2012.[23][24][25] Milley commanded III Corps, based at Fort Hood, Texas, from December 2012 to August 2014,[26][27][28] and concurrently the International Security Assistance Force Joint Command from May 2013 to February 2014.[29][30] He served as the commanding general of the United States Army Forces Command at Fort Liberty, North Carolina, from August 2014 to August 2015.[31][32]
 
Providing an opinion regarding the CIC, while serving under him, to a foreign adversary like the CCP is insubordination. Period.

If you can't see this I cant help you.

I wouldn't talk shit to a competing company about the head of my department, while working for it, and I'm just a guy doing a job.
Everyone knows that if one did such a thing, and it got back to your boss, you'd be fired immediately. People here are so blinded by politics it's crazy. Have some common sense.
What did he say about Trump? What opinion did he express about Trump?

Not sure where you are getting that. Maybe I’ve missed it?
 
Providing an opinion regarding the CIC, while serving under him, to a foreign adversary like the CCP is insubordination. Period.

If you can't see this I cant help you.

I wouldn't talk shit to a competing company about the head of my department, while working for it, and I'm just a guy doing a job.
Everyone knows that if one did such a thing, and it got back to your boss, you'd be fired immediately. People here are so blinded by politics it's crazy. Have some common sense.
He didn't talk shit though. There was probably an unsaid acknowledgement that these Chinese worries were over what appeared to be an erratically behaving Donald Trump. Miley's focus, from all available text, however, was to decrease the risk of a pre-emptive Chinese attack that might lead to some broader conflict.

If there was some strategy at play by Trump & others to make China act, or think about acting, then it would've been different.

Quite frankly I'm reassured to know that if we had a nutcase president -- pick on Biden with dementia scenario if you like -- that we have military leadership that would intervene where starting unnecessary conflict is concerned.
 
That is ok only if under orders of the President. That is why we have backdoor channels to a lot of countries with nuclear weapons. So as to be able to communicate, under the orders of the President, directly to an opposition government in the case of an accidental weapons launch or threat.

This is not there for an officer to take it upon himself to tell the leader of a foreign government that he intended to violate a President's order if given, due to one's dislike, or mistrust of a President.

If you are that worried about your CIC, resign. Don't promise the CCP, that you 'have their back".

This is simply treason at its worst and insubordination at the least.
You're assuming Miley doesn't have that level of autonomy. Does he have to schedule every talk with a Chinese general with the president or some other political body? How much leeway are top level military officials traditionally given over stuff like this?
 
I appreciate that, and I 100% agree; if Milley truly gave China classified or sensitive intel, that’s treason and should be prosecuted. No argument there. My concern is whether we can trust the process to be fair and not just a political hit job. Given Trump’s open desire for revenge, it’s hard to believe Milley (or anyone in his crosshairs) would get a legitimate hearing. Heck, I think he'd deport me for not voting for him if he could get away with it.

That’s why I think an unbiased investigation is key. Not Twitter trials, not political theater...just a serious, fact-driven process to determine if there’s an actual fire behind the smoke. If the evidence is there, prosecute. But if this turns into just another partisan $hitshow, that’s a dangerous road.
Given Trump's level of free wheeling and disregard for norms I highly doubt that Miley breaking some sort of protocol was his big worry.

Miley went to Trump's shit list the minute he spoke negatively of him in public. At that point if Trump has a path to get back at you he'll take it. Trump has proven this time and again. That's your impetus for Trump's actions.
 
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I'll just leave you with my final thoughts. Milley’s actions were unusual and could be seen as overstepping his role, but calling it outright treason is a stretch. Your argument assumes he acted unilaterally, but evidence suggests his calls were coordinated and intended to prevent miscalculation between two nuclear powers. That said, I'll admit there is a valid concern (not partisan rage) about the precedent this sets as military officials should not be in a position where they feel the need to bypass or undermine civilian leadership. Hopefully future SECDEFs, CJCS, high ranking officials will consider Miley's actions before making their own.
Right, you'd have to understand the strict limits of Miley's autonomy in that role. And then you'd have to understand the effective norms surrounding the actions taken by someone in that role.

It could've been that Miley overstepped his role in way in which people in his role commonly do -- that it was a transgression, but effectively a very common one.

And now this common transgression is being seized upon by political opportunists. (very common pattern -- the transgression is never an issue until someone you don't like does it)
 
Right, you'd have to understand the strict limits of Miley's autonomy in that role. And then you'd have to understand the effective norms surrounding the actions taken by someone in that role.

It could've been that Miley overstepped his role in way in which people in his role commonly do -- that it was a transgression, but effectively a very common one.

And now this common transgression is being seized upon by political opportunists. (very common pattern -- the transgression is never an issue until someone you don't like does it)
Kinda like Jameis and the crab legs. Everyone knows about the Publix hook-ups, but they used a common transgression against him.

money crab legs GIF by FirstAndMonday
 
Right, you'd have to understand the strict limits of Miley's autonomy in that role. And then you'd have to understand the effective norms surrounding the actions taken by someone in that role.

It could've been that Miley overstepped his role in way in which people in his role commonly do -- that it was a transgression, but effectively a very common one.

And now this common transgression is being seized upon by political opportunists. (very common pattern -- the transgression is never an issue until someone you don't like does it)
You are making excuses here. This was unacceptable.

Let the process play out. He will have his day in military court if he so desires. We cant take him to federal court. Pardon and all ya know. Congress could investigate too. Would you be opposed to a military or congressional investigation?
 
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What the hell are you even talking about here? JFC you people.
If you put your head far enough up your blue or red ass, and lose all sense of objectivity, then only one side is capable of engaging in this, and it's the other side.
 
You are making excuses here. This was unacceptable.

Let the process play out. He will have his day in military court if he so desires. We cant take him to federal court. Pardon and all ya know.
Congress could investigate too. Would you be opposed to a military or congressional investigation?
This Congress?
Yes I would.
 
Why? Because it is Republican?

But you were OK with the incessant investigations of Trump and his staff by Democrats?
Exactly what from their bungled impeachment hearings gives you any confidence that any congressional investigation led by republicans would be 1) objective or 2) competent?
 
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