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Here is what I don't like about recruiting rankings...

cmhawks99

HB Legend
Jul 23, 2002
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At least as they pertain to a certain "national" rank....What is really the difference in these 6 classes.


Total 5* 4* 3*
20 0 4 16 3.2

20 0 4 16 3.2

21 0 3 16 2.86

21 0 3 16 2.86

21 0 2 16 2.95

17 0 3 13 3.12

Now as you can see above, these classes are remarkably close. Where do they fall in the rankings and what differs about them really?! Can you honestly say one of is obviously better than the other?!
 
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No and I do not see your point. Put OSU's up there and you will a difference.

19 08 11 00 4.3 if my quick math is correct.
 
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No and I do not see your point. Put OSU's up their and you will a difference.

19 08 11 00 4.3 if my quick math is correct.


Of course you can't see a difference but they are in order....

The 15th ranked class in the nation…

The 18th...

The 20th..

The 24th...

The 25th...

And the 37th....Iowas.

Kind of points out the ridiculousness of the "national rank". Now I can see the benefit of "higher rated" recruits but when the variables are skewed so wildly by 1, 2, 3 extra recruits I find where they get ranked comparatively ridiculous.

In my opinion as long as Iowa continues to sign 20 or so recruits with an average star ranking around three they will be in pretty good shape.
 
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Contrary to popular beliefs, national recruiting rankings are not "accurate", nor are they worthless. People doing their best job at comparing HS athletes from different schools and different parts of the country.
 
Contrary to popular beliefs, national recruiting rankings are not "accurate", nor are they worthless. People doing their best job at comparing HS athletes from different schools and different parts of the country.
People doing their best job at comparing HS athletes from different schools and different parts of the country.
For what purpose? College coaches do their own evaluations. The sole purpose of these ratings is to sell memberships to their sites and to make money off getting kids to their camps. Period. Most college coaches could care less what 'stars' an athlete got running around in his shorts at a Nike camp in Chicago.
Do coaches use these 'star' ratings? Who?
Think about it, Were coaches able to evaluate and recruit kids prior to these 'services'? Of course they were, thus they are worthless. What school has improved their recruiting since the advent of these services and their 'stars'? Name one.
They are simply an entertainment venue meant to make money, Period. They don't help anyone recruit. They are for 'fans'. Coaches don't sit around waiting for 'ratings' come out to know who they want to recruit and kids start contacting schools they are interested in long before they are 'rated' and have 'stars'. People need to go read how recruiting actually works.
 
People doing their best job at comparing HS athletes from different schools and different parts of the country.
For what purpose? College coaches do their own evaluations. The sole purpose of these ratings is to sell memberships to their sites and to make money off getting kids to their camps. Period. Most college coaches could care less what 'stars' an athlete got running around in his shorts at a Nike camp in Chicago.
Do coaches use these 'star' ratings? Who?
Think about it, Were coaches able to evaluate and recruit kids prior to these 'services'? Of course they were, thus they are worthless. What school has improved their recruiting since the advent of these services and their 'stars'? Name one.
They are simply an entertainment venue meant to make money, Period. They don't help anyone recruit. They are for 'fans'. Coaches don't sit around waiting for 'ratings' come out to know who they want to recruit and kids start contacting schools they are interested in long before they are 'rated' and have 'stars'. People need to go read how recruiting actually works.

That is a 5 star post.
 
People doing their best job at comparing HS athletes from different schools and different parts of the country.
For what purpose? College coaches do their own evaluations. The sole purpose of these ratings is to sell memberships to their sites and to make money off getting kids to their camps. Period. Most college coaches could care less what 'stars' an athlete got running around in his shorts at a Nike camp in Chicago.
Do coaches use these 'star' ratings? Who?
Think about it, Were coaches able to evaluate and recruit kids prior to these 'services'? Of course they were, thus they are worthless. What school has improved their recruiting since the advent of these services and their 'stars'? Name one.
They are simply an entertainment venue meant to make money, Period. They don't help anyone recruit. They are for 'fans'. Coaches don't sit around waiting for 'ratings' come out to know who they want to recruit and kids start contacting schools they are interested in long before they are 'rated' and have 'stars'. People need to go read how recruiting actually works.
I feel the same way about highlight tapes I don't understand how fans can watch them and determine that that kid is a stud.i believe coaches want game tapes so they came watch a player every play.
 
I feel the same way about highlight tapes I don't understand how fans can watch them and determine that that kid is a stud.i believe coaches want game tapes so they came watch a player every play.
You are absolutely correct. Coaches watch whole game tapes. If you watch David Johnson's highlight tape while he was at Clinton, you would say , 'wow, this guy is a 5 star'. But watch whole game tapes and you see him taking too many plays off. That's what turned Iowa and most other schools off about him.
 
You are absolutely correct. Coaches watch whole game tapes. If you watch David Johnson's highlight tape while he was at Clinton, you would say , 'wow, this guy is a 5 star'. But watch whole game tapes and you see him taking too many plays off. That's what turned Iowa and most other schools off about him.
And obviously those tapes don't tell the whole story ...David Johnson taking plays off ....ha....ha ....we have seen how that story ended. Maybe there should be a better way of judging kids ....pretty good example of that right there!
 
And obviously those tapes don't tell the whole story ...David Johnson taking plays off ....ha....ha ....we have seen how that story ended. Maybe there should be a better way of judging kids ....pretty good example of that right there!
I believe DJ said a couple years ago KF was right when he told DJ he didn't like his game tapes and to DJ credit he took it to heart and never looked back but he would of been a huge risk.
 
And obviously those tapes don't tell the whole story ...David Johnson taking plays off ....ha....ha ....we have seen how that story ended. Maybe there should be a better way of judging kids ....pretty good example of that right there!
Not sure what you found humorous? Kids taking plays off is usually indicative of a poor work ethic. D1 one schools don't want kids with poor work ethics, especially Iowa. Johnson was an exception, not the norm. Plus, he always seemed really aloof to talk to. In Johnson's defense, he rarely left the field in HS. Iowa offered him a grayshirt, but I think if they didn't have questions about his 'desire' they would have 'found' a scholly for him. What I'm telling you was what other coaches in the conference (MAC) had 'heard' and their thoughts on it.
 
You are absolutely correct. Coaches watch whole game tapes. If you watch David Johnson's highlight tape while he was at Clinton, you would say , 'wow, this guy is a 5 star'. But watch whole game tapes and you see him taking too many plays off. That's what turned Iowa and most other schools off about him.

It is the staff’s job to get talented players on the team and coach them. Motivate them to be the best they can be.

Missing on D Johnson was a colossal mistake.
 
It is the staff’s job to get talented players on the team and coach them. Motivate them to be the best they can be.

Missing on D Johnson was a colossal mistake.


Not anymore colossal then all the two stars they signed that didn't work out got any thoughts on that?

Also I'd like to know how you feel about Wisconsin missing him Minnesota missing him Iowas State missing him Michigan missing him you know all teams that have signed kids from Iowa.

I'm actually going to wait this one out, I'm really looking forward to how you spin this out....
 
It is the staff’s job to get talented players on the team and coach them. Motivate them to be the best they can be.

Missing on D Johnson was a colossal mistake.
He had NO offers from ANYONE, so how was it a colossal mistake on Iowa's part? They at least offered a grayshirt.

And yes in hindsight, it would have been awesome to have him with Weisman. Would have been a great 'thunder and lighting' combo, but he obviously was considered a risk to every college coach in the midwest as no one offered him.
 
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Not anymore colossal then all the two stars they signed that didn't work out got any thoughts on that?

Also I'd like to know how you feel about Wisconsin missing him Minnesota missing him Iowas State missing him Michigan missing him you know all teams that have signed kids from Iowa.

I'm actually going to wait this one out, I'm really looking forward to how you spin this out....

Ronnie Harmon wasn’t much of a people person. Iowa damn near won the national title in 1985. I want Ronnie Harmon’s not hard working nerds from nowheresville Iowa.
 
Ronnie Harmon wasn’t much of a people person. Iowa damn near won the national title in 1985. I want Ronnie Harmon’s not hard working nerds from nowheresville Iowa.
Your last sentence doesn't make sense to me. Can you clarify your point? He wasn't from Iowa.
For every Ronnie Harmon and David Johnson that are the exception, there are a 100 that fail. How do you make that distinction as a recruiter?
 
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I read somewhere many months ago that Johnson actually was happy with Ferentz because it was the kick in the butt he needed to get him to work harder.

couldnt he have motivated him while on the team? What kind of clown looks at talent and says nope too much work, don’t want him.
 
People doing their best job at comparing HS athletes from different schools and different parts of the country.
For what purpose? College coaches do their own evaluations. The sole purpose of these ratings is to sell memberships to their sites and to make money off getting kids to their camps. Period. Most college coaches could care less what 'stars' an athlete got running around in his shorts at a Nike camp in Chicago.
Do coaches use these 'star' ratings? Who?
Think about it, Were coaches able to evaluate and recruit kids prior to these 'services'? Of course they were, thus they are worthless. What school has improved their recruiting since the advent of these services and their 'stars'? Name one.
They are simply an entertainment venue meant to make money, Period. They don't help anyone recruit. They are for 'fans'. Coaches don't sit around waiting for 'ratings' come out to know who they want to recruit and kids start contacting schools they are interested in long before they are 'rated' and have 'stars'. People need to go read how recruiting actually works.
Good post...been saying this for years. People that judge either coaching staffs or kids off of camp stars have bought into the madness. There are hundreds of examples of this not being accurate every year. 33 of the projected 51 starters for the 2017 Super Bowl were 3-star or less rated players coming out of high school. Would of been more but there were a handful of player, like Tom Brady, that were not from the star era. Again...you recruit potential more than talent. The big boy programs are going to get the top 25 or so players after that you better coach them up.
 
Contrary to popular beliefs, national recruiting rankings are not "accurate", nor are they worthless. People doing their best job at comparing HS athletes from different schools and different parts of the country.
And to add to your point, not having actually seen probably more then 25% of the available pool play on the field. More and more, high school football has become like basketball. The only way to be sure your seen is to participate in these national camps and 7 on 7 camps, many which are by invite only. Anyone who is naive enough to think these services have seen the majority of kids play is misinformed. Thats why there are the Josey Jewells out there.
 
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Ronnie Harmon wasn’t much of a people person. Iowa damn near won the national title in 1985. I want Ronnie Harmon’s not hard working nerds from nowheresville Iowa.

Must not be a fan of Josey Jewell then, because he's exactly the guy you described in your last sentence.

In regards to all of your posts about David Johnson: You're on the wrong side of this with the benefit of hindsight. At the time, Kirk saw a scarcely recruited kid with talent but a low work ethic. To his credit, he took Kirk's evaluation and used it as fuel to turn himself into a starting RB in the NFL, but don't act like he was a "can't miss" kid out high school. You should really the articles on his transformation if you haven't already. They paint a vastly different picture than the one you've been describing in this thread.
 
Must not be a fan of Josey Jewell then, because he's exactly the guy you described in your last sentence.

In regards to all of your posts about David Johnson: You're on the wrong side of this with the benefit of hindsight. At the time, Kirk saw a scarcely recruited kid with talent but a low work ethic. To his credit, he took Kirk's evaluation and used it as fuel to turn himself into a starting RB in the NFL, but don't act like he was a "can't miss" kid out high school. You should really the articles on his transformation if you haven't already. They paint a vastly different picture than the one you've been describing in this thread.

for every Josey we have 10 busts. we are so thin at several positions because we dont recruit, retain, and promote talented players over coaches favorites.
 
Ronnie Harmon wasn’t much of a people person. Iowa damn near won the national title in 1985. I want Ronnie Harmon’s not hard working nerds from nowheresville Iowa.

Ronnie Harmon cost Iowa a Rose Bowl victory. I'm absolutely convinced he was on the take for that game. I'll take the hard working nerd over Ronnie Harmon.
 
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Iowa offered him a grayshirt. UNI offered scholly. i guess i dont have to use hyperbole to make my point. Is Farley not a coach?

http://www.thegazette.com/subject/sports/johnson-is-the-one-who-didnt-get-away-20140825
We were talking about D1 schools offering outside of what I had already spoke about. I already posted twice that Iowa offered a grayshirt and UNI and Southern Illinois offered. You need the whole context. So there was no hyperbole, you just need to read the whole conversation in the thread. Information is our friend. Nice try Phenom.....
 
for every Josey we have 10 busts. we are so thin at several positions because we dont recruit, retain, and promote talented players over coaches favorites.

Here's a little training exercise for you. By my count, Iowa has had 21 All American awards during Kirk's time as a head coach here. I'll let you go find the number that were 4 or 5 stars out of high school.

You're just buying into the hype of a subjective grade system that is far from accurate.

In regards to favorites comment, that's so tired and worn out. If I'm not mistaken, we played more freshmen this year than ever before under Ferentz.
 
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It is the staff’s job to get talented players on the team and coach them. Motivate them to be the best they can be.

Missing on D Johnson was a colossal mistake.
Some people just cant admit it was a huge miss. I totally agree on it being the coaches job to see talent ...in this case it was a swing and a miss! If ya want to blame someone for his taking plays off blame his coach! He was such a threat just having him on the field they had him out there on every play...offense and defense! It's pretty easy to see what he's capable of when he's not on the field every down of every game! If any coaches had anything bad to say about him (Witch I've never heard except one person here) it was only because they were tired of having there kids run over, thru and around! It's just this simple ......if you can honestly say that it wasn't a colossal miss by passing on one of the best running backs in the NFL.
 
for every Josey we have 10 busts. we are so thin at several positions because we dont recruit, retain, and promote talented players over coaches favorites.

You guys are fun to terrorize. So 1 out of 10 huh. By my recollection, I haven't counted in awhile, we have put 25ish 2-stars in the NFL, not counting multi-year starters who made camps.

So you are saying we have signed 250 2-stars?! And what does that have to do with Johnson, another 2-star. Sounds like we shouldn't have offered right?!

Now lest you mean recruiting in its totality, KF has signed in the neighborhood of 20 kids X 18 years or 360, let's round up to help your cause. We'll say 400. I think he has had like 70 kids drafted and probably put another 20ish Free Agents in.

That's close to 25%ish....pretty dang good. His personnel decisions are beyond reproach.

Now to address your last point I/E: playing favorites...you guys have pretty much lost Any credibility you had (very little incidentally) over the last couple years, with Willies going down to Texas Tech and not only struggling, but getting suspended for disciplinary reasons and Jake going to Michigan and then on to the NFL.

You wouldn't know a good personnel decision if it walked up and introduced itself to you.

Just stop you're burying yourself.
 
Some people just cant admit it was a huge miss. I totally agree on it being the coaches job to see talent ...in this case it was a swing and a miss! If ya want to blame someone for his taking plays off blame his coach! He was such a threat just having him on the field they had him out there on every play...offense and defense! It's pretty easy to see what he's capable of when he's not on the field every down of every game! If any coaches had anything bad to say about him (Witch I've never heard except one person here) it was only because they were tired of having there kids run over, thru and around! It's just this simple ......if you can honestly say that it wasn't a colossal miss by passing on one of the best running backs in the NFL.


Agreed 130 Division I coaches colossally missed on David Johnson, just like they did Tony Romo, Fred Jackson from Coe, etc. etc...

Now that we've got that ironed out let's move on to the next thing.
 
Ronnie Harmon cost Iowa a Rose Bowl victory. I'm absolutely convinced he was on the take for that game. I'll take the hard working nerd over Ronnie Harmon.

I know it was frustrating but I don't at all agree. The South Dakota St Qb alone had about 200 turnovers yesterday...it happens.
 
People doing their best job at comparing HS athletes from different schools and different parts of the country.
For what purpose? College coaches do their own evaluations. The sole purpose of these ratings is to sell memberships to their sites and to make money off getting kids to their camps. Period. Most college coaches could care less what 'stars' an athlete got running around in his shorts at a Nike camp in Chicago.
Do coaches use these 'star' ratings? Who?
Think about it, Were coaches able to evaluate and recruit kids prior to these 'services'? Of course they were, thus they are worthless. What school has improved their recruiting since the advent of these services and their 'stars'? Name one.
They are simply an entertainment venue meant to make money, Period. They don't help anyone recruit. They are for 'fans'. Coaches don't sit around waiting for 'ratings' come out to know who they want to recruit and kids start contacting schools they are interested in long before they are 'rated' and have 'stars'. People need to go read how recruiting actually works.

If they were completely inaccurate, though, no fan would ever pay attention to them at all. You're making them out to be pointless or worthless compared to coaching evaluations. I don't buy it. No one puts the kind of money these recruiting sites do for following and evaluating high school players without some sort of benchmarks for evaluative success. For example, if their rankings from five years ago were evaluated and proven to be completely wrong, that Florida State's recruits were actually way worse than Central Michigan's based on on-field performance, you'd definitely see personnel changes at Rivals or 247Sports. the idea that this is for "entertainment" and therefore requires no effort or expertise at all is ludicrous and even insulting. The one thing recruiting rankings have over specific coaching staffs is the volume of video evidence and evaluation of players from all over the country. No team has the resources on the coaching staff to do what Rivals or 247Sports can do, which is evaluate vastly larger numbers of players.

Coaches specialize in relationships with high school coaches, camps, and specific areas (unless you're Alabama or Ohio State and they can go after the most obviously exceptional high school athletes; their jobs in recruiting are much easier than Iowa's or Central Michigan's). In addition to that, there are scheme considerations for both high school players and coaches. Wisconsin runs a 3-4 so they want different types of defensive ends and outside linebackers than, say, Iowa may want. If a player is so good and versatile it may not matter, but those guys typically wind up with the blue bloods, though not always. So finding guys who also fit team culture in addition to scheme is important for college programs.

Rivals isn't doing that level of analysis and it would be damn hard to do it anyway given that most teams don't have 20-year coaches like Iowa does. Whatever evaluations would have been useful for UCLA under MOra now go out the window. There'd be a period of evaluation of Chip Kelly's first couple of seasons necessary to make any type of worthwhile evaluation. Yes, going back to his days at Oregon provides some insight, but who knows how Kelly makes changes between then and now, plus the fact that the rest of the PAC-12 coaching staffs are very different than his time at Oregon. Hell, Oregon has gone through how many coaches the past ten years? Four? Five? A lot fo change.

So for Rivals the analysis has to be on the players alone rather than specific fits with specific teams and coaching staffs and team cultures. It's on that level that the lower-ranked guys, the 3-stars and 2-stars, are less predictable in terms of how well they'll perform at a given school in a given system. Plus, if a team has a crappy d-line and a linebacker recruit stud goes to that school and he's required to make most of the plays yet the d-line can't occupy blockers the way the scheme demands, the LB's play looks worse than it may be and the numbers by performance may seem to "prove" that the guy was overrated.

So, yeah, the recruiting rankings may not tell the whole story, but it's not because the recruiting sites are just half-assing things believing that making up numbers for players and star rankings is just a "crap shoot." It's because of the level of complexities that cannot be accurately anticipated for each individual because scheme fit, team culture, player's coach ability in relation to specific coaches, and more aren't part of the ranking system. Those are variables even coaching staffs have difficulty projecting. You can't perfectly anticipate a guy like Jewell excelling and never getting hurt and having no one in front of him playing at a high level when he's a young player. Nor can you anticipate a guy like Marcus Coker who winds up being an incredible talent as expected running into off-field problems that cause him to transfer and never again reach that potential. Or Adam Robinson exceeding his recruiting value (even by the coaches at Iowa) and then being cut from the team for smoking marijuana after demonstrating on-field success for two years.

So if recruiting is a crap shoot, it's because life itself is too complicated with too many unknown and unmeasurable variables to lead to perfect accuracy. But it's been proven rather well that the five and high-four star guys have been reliably predictable compared to the lower ranked guys. You might get a diamond in the rough or you might get a total flop with a 2-star or low 3-star. I'll take the five stars every day of the week if you can load up on them. otherwise, yeah, you have to trust the coaches are getting the RIGHT three-star guy for their team compared to other 3-star guys that might have been available and willing to commit.
 
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They put out that kind of money to MAKE money off over zealous fans and athletes and their families. It is it's own self-serving industry. What don't you understand? They are worthless to college football itself. If they disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't affect recruiting at all, the FANS just wouldn't have anything to follow and get expectations about. They are worthless except as a way to make money off ignorant fans. Period. You can blab on all you'd like, and write as many paragraphs as you'd like, but nothing you said is how it actually works.
Again, you just DON'T GET IT. The blue bloods found and got the best recruits BEFORE rating services labeled them 5 stars or 4 stars or whatever, and nothing has changed. Like I keep telling you guys, you need to learn how recruiting actually works and it has literally nothing to do with these rating services. They just tell fans what the coaches already knew. Coaches and athletes don't sit around waiting to see how anyone is 'rated' before they contact each other and start sharing and reviewing film. That is happening way before they become 'rated'. And they (coaches) don't extend and rescind offers based on anyone's 'star ratings' going up or down, now do they. Hell, look at how many guys aren't even rated at juniors and seniors and then are miraculously 3 stars when someone offers them, LOL. Jeezy Peezy people, is it really that hard to think rationally?
 
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