Here Lies KJ

[MSU158]

So lets hear your thoughts on the results of Dec 10th?

I expect them to get absolutely throttled. But, in their defense I would say that about any team not named OkState, tOSU or PSU. Even VTech matches up horribly with Iowa without McFadden. Missouri could lose all but 165 and 197.

I originally thought ISU would win at 141, 165, 197 and 285. Now it seems they are making a mess of 141 letting a brittle Moreno cut too much weight. Hopefully the sort that out soon. 165 is still a toss up without Marinelli, but I am leaning more in favor of Gunther now. No Colbray or Harrington at 197 spells doom and 285 is a toss up. Downey may win, but I just have a feeling this is going to be a great year for Brooks.

 

[MitchL]

Basing Hall on the fact that he has never been better than 7th or 8th. Add Tomasello, Brock, Gross to the weight, and I don't think he places.

Spoon is a top 15 guy. NCAAs last year was an anomaly and you can already see that from his results this year.

Give me one AA or less for them and at least one of the above schools to place higher than them.

Totally agree. No way in hell Hall and Spoon AA this year. I don't know all the facts surrounding Hall's academic status, but if he came back only to wrestle... he made a huge mistake in not getting on with his life. He's your typical ISU wrestler..except for Gadsen. Regress, then regress some more. Moreno should have hung it up last year.

BTW: I need to explain my reasoning for Hall and Spoon... 133 has added some studs that drop Hall out of AA and same can be said of 174.

 

[GG121AND2]

Since Nick Mitchell does so well with KJ's recruits, maybe he should be considered should the job open up.

 

[Monzon]

I will bet you that at least one of Wyo, NDSU, or SDSU places ahead of ISU this year at nationals. Earl won't AA again, Spoon won't AA again, Downey will if healthy, but likely 5-8. Won't take much from one of those teams to beat ISU this year.

PD3 is winning the Hodge.

 

[CradleKing26]

Since Nick Mitchell does so well with KJ's recruits, maybe he should be considered should the job open up.

I know you're being sarcastic but I would be curious to see how Mitchell could do. He gets the most out of his guys.

 

[UndercoverHawk]

I know you're being sarcastic but I would be curious to see how Mitchell could do. He gets the most out of his guys.

Forget Mitchell. I think it should be MitchL.

 

[MitchL]

Forget Mitchell. I think it should be MitchL.

Nope... I got an interview with the Gophers coming up. If I can get a lifetime prescription for Xanax as part of my compensation package, I'll probably take the job. Otherwise...if they want to continue to stay irrelevant, they'll select the current interim guy.

BTW: Gopher job has a big advantage... you're the ONLY D-1 program in the State, so the best in-State kids always attend the U.

 

[Azchief32]

Since Nick Mitchell does so well with KJ's recruits, maybe he should be considered should the job open up.

Actually, not a bad idea

 

[ISUAlum1990]

Actually, not a bad idea

I was thinking the same thing yesterday.

 

[SetonHallPirate]

I expect them to get absolutely throttled. But, in their defense I would say that about any team not named OkState, tOSU or PSU. Even VTech matches up horribly with Iowa without McFadden. Missouri could lose all but 165 and 197.

I originally thought ISU would win at 141, 165, 197 and 285. Now it seems they are making a mess of 141 letting a brittle Moreno cut too much weight. Hopefully the sort that out soon. 165 is still a toss up without Marinelli, but I am leaning more in favor of Gunther now. No Colbray or Harrington at 197 spells doom and 285 is a toss up. Downey may win, but I just have a feeling this is going to be a great year for Brooks.

Harrington is registered to wrestle this weekend in Vegas.

 

[SPOONER]

Fair enough MSU158. Here's where I hope to change your mind - this is as good as KJ will ever be. He SHOULD lose his job because while the reputation isn't great (which is his fault), the resources are available.

Look at a team like Princeton. A literal wasteland, that now, and in the near future could challenge Cornell (a perennial top 6 program). We place too much emphasis on a coach's athletic achievement. If you put a young and/or energetic coach in that position and ISU is climbing that ladder. Where they could place themselves in the top 6 every 3-4 years AT LEAST.

Let's talk about his ability as a coach. Do you think he's good one at developing better wrestlers? I really don't. Do you think he is a good manager of careers? I really don't. He's wasted multiple redshirts, throws guys in unprepared (think wrong weight class) and they certainly are losing to lesser programs.

MSU has made it clear that it is OK to underachieve because other teams are achieving or overachieving. It's fine.

 

[hawkssox1]

BTW: Gopher job has a big advantage... you're the ONLY D-1 program in the State, so the best in-State kids always attend the U.

Umm no they don't.

 

[MitchL]

Umm no they don't.

You must be new here.

 

[MSU158]

MSU has made it clear that it is OK to underachieve because other teams are achieving or overachieving. It's fine.

And that is the key difference in our perception of ISU and KJ. I don't believe they are underachieving. It is also why I said I didn't want to fall back into this argument yet again. That standard we hold ISU to is very different and inevitably blocks either of us from accepting any part of the other's reasoning. I don't believe ISU is or can be measured by what it once was. Times have changed and KJ is more the scapegoat than the cause.

Can we please just agree to disagree and move on? As I have said, I don't expect to change your opinion and respect it. We have had this argument enough times to know it isn't going anywhere. If KJ does inevitably get let go and they don't replace him with a monumental hire, I will gladly eat crow if a 2nd tier or less HC takes over and does better. Bookmark this topic and fell free to revisit it if that happens.

 

[letsgohawks44]

And that is the key difference in our perception of ISU and KJ. I don't believe they are underachieving. It is also why I said I didn't want to fall back into this argument yet again. That standard we hold ISU to is very different and inevitably blocks either of us from accepting any part of the other's reasoning. I don't believe ISU is or can be measured by what it once was. Times have changed and KJ is more the scapegoat than the cause.

Can we please just agree to disagree and move on? As I have said, I don't expect to change your opinion and respect it. We have had this argument enough times to know it isn't going anywhere. If KJ does inevitably get let go and they don't replace him with a monumental hire, I will gladly eat crow if a 2nd tier or less HC takes over and does better. Bookmark this topic and fell free to revisit it if that happens.

Ummm you're the one that continuously brings this up.

 

[Azchief32]

And that is the key difference in our perception of ISU and KJ. I don't believe they are underachieving. It is also why I said I didn't want to fall back into this argument yet again. That standard we hold ISU to is very different and inevitably blocks either of us from accepting any part of the other's reasoning. I don't believe ISU is or can be measured by what it once was. Times have changed and KJ is more the scapegoat than the cause.

Can we please just agree to disagree and move on? As I have said, I don't expect to change your opinion and respect it. We have had this argument enough times to know it isn't going anywhere. If KJ does inevitably get let go and they don't replace him with a monumental hire, I will gladly eat crow if a 2nd tier or less HC takes over and does better. Bookmark this topic and fell free to revisit it if that happens.

I think most of us talk about this around this time of year because the Iowa vs Iowa State dual used to mean something. It hasn't since Cael left. Every team has down years...we'll have ours next year, PSU had one in 2015, tOSU multiple ones while reloading etc but KJ has recruited well but every year seems to be replete with injuries, guys not making their planned weight, pulling shirts because of the first two etc.

I would have loved to have Colbray at 97 for us but there is no way in hell Tom even thinks about pulling shirts until he had supreme confidence after watching Colbray wrestle opens. He sure as hell wouldn't have done it in throwaway early dual. It's just not normal.

 

[MSU158]

Ummm you're the one that continuously brings this up.

Actually, go back and read. I tried to leave it alone, but someone politely asked me to respond. I know this topic is polarizing and I sure as hell am not the one starting the KJ and ISU topics.

 

[AFHawk86]

And that is the key difference in our perception of ISU and KJ. I don't believe they are underachieving.

Sometimes an opinion is wrong. This is a good example.

 

[SPOONER]

Sometimes an opinion is wrong. This is a good example.

This

 

[lookleft goright]

Why? Serious question. Why do they have to be carefull? He is shitting the bed. Any hire would be an improvement.

So you mean like Tom Minkel? Would he be an improvement?

 

[vhsalum]

MSU158 - You know what? I might actually have to apologize. I went back at looked at the top 10 finishes since 2002 (Cael's Senior year)

I was using the wrestlingstats.com website, as I'm not sure how to find complete scores, and they only list the top ten. If someone can find them, please post the link, I'd love to take a look.

2003 - Outside Top Ten (No Champs)
2004 - 6th (1 Champ)
2005 - 10th (No Champs)
2006 - Outside Top Ten (1 Champ)
2007 - 2nd (1 Champ)
2008 - 5th (No Champs)
2009 - 3rd (1 Champ)
2010 - 3rd (1 Champ) BEGINNING OF KJ ERA
2011 - 20th
2012 - 35th
2013 - 11th
2014 - 12th
2015 - 14th
2016 - 12th


So for a 4 year period, with Cael at the helm Iowa State was a top 5 program. However, the program is clearly able to consistently finish in the top 5. They didn't finish outside of the top 6 from the period of 1996 to 2002. There is history there, which matters. They have resources ($$$), which matters.

So it's clear that ISU is in the mean of 13th or so. I think the difference between MSU158 and everyone else, he doesn't expect KJ/ISU to be better than that. I would say on dollars alone they shouldn't be that low.

So I guess MSU158, the question is, and you never answered my question - do you think KJ is a good coach? Can he develop and can he manage? I don't think he has done either particularly well.

 

[Fan In Black]

So you mean like Tom Minkel? Would he be an improvement?

A marked.

 

[buf87]

I think 2010 was 2 champs (Varner & Zabriskie)

 

[buf87]

Andrew Sorenson was 28-2, I think and rolled an ankle at Nationals in maybe 2012 and I think Spangler was ranked top 10 and had to quit because of concussions. Bad luck and year

 

[vhsalum]

MSU158, an additional question. If you don't think KJ is the "problem" - Iowa State has back-to-back recruiting classes that will have more Fargo champs than anyone ever.

Are you willing to say that those two classes will result in a 4 year, perennial top 5 team?

 

[MSU158]

vhsalum,

I think KJ is a solid 10th-20th type HC. He seems to try very hard to run a clean program(evidenced by consistent disciplinary actions). He also recruits well. But, his "well" is nowhere near the PSU caliber of recruiting. Even though he did recruit Fargo champs, none of them were TOP10 lb4lb. Colbray was 11th and got injured so quick we have no idea how to gauge him. The others were ranked 35th, 80th, 83rd and 84th. That is far from the quality necessary to compete with Iowa, PSU, tOSU, OkState, Minnesota and Cornell.

I will concede that his development of talent has not been top tier, but I think it is about average for the overall talent on his team. 2 to 3 AA's per year actually matches up pretty well to the talent level on his teams. He is admittedly not Tom Brands, but nearly no one is. He is also far and above the likes of Minkel or Goldman.

I have never argued that he is a great HC. I simply think he is solid and the Athletic Department as well as the current DI wrestling landscape are the major reason ISU is now a fringe top 10-15 team.

 

[vhsalum]

I can agree with all the above. I just don't think Iowa State has to settle, but as previously mentioned, I don't think the Athletic Department cares.

And I do think ISU could do better without KJ. My point with pointing out Princeton, is that, this sport is for the energetic and building is always an option. I think ISU should be a program that, AT THE LEAST, should be in the top 5 every 4 years or so, on dollars alone. I don't think KJ is able to do that, and there are coaches out there that are doing more with less.

 

[MSU158]

Here are KJ's recruiting class rankings:

2016:5th Definitely his best class and how they turn out will probably be the best way to gauge his ability to develop. If he doesn't get 6 or more AA finishes from this group, I think it would be fair to call it a failure.

2015:23rd Simmons and Diblasi were the only ranked recruits. Simmons is a fringe AA type by his Senior year. Wouldn't expect much from this class.

2014: 12th Based on 3 guys ranked 31st-56th. Wasn't high on Boston but he was a top ranked guy having won FLO Nationals. Harrington seemed to be the talent in this class, but seemed to fall into the void that highly ranked 197's have been doing for some time(Craig, Campo). An AA finish or 2 would be a surprise to me. A few NQ's seems more reasonable to me.

2013: Not ranked. No top 100 recruits, but Earl Hall was the #14 119lber in 2012 prior to deferring enrollment an spending a year at the OTC. Between that and KJ, 2 AA finishes and chance at a 3rd is pretty damn good for that type of ranking!

2012: 11th. Best group of highly ranked talent, but McCauley wasn't going to pan out in DI no matter who brought him in. Meeks has definitely regressed and is the one big glaring black mark I attribute to KJ. He has seemed to handle Meeks wrong from the beginning and still appears to be doing so letting Moreno(also a big recruit from this class) cut down to 141. Gabe has definitely been the best of the group, but has fought through a slew of injuries. Would love to see Meeks and Moreno both have shot to go out with an AA finish, but again, this is the spot where I think KJ has messed up.

2011: Not ranked. Weatherman was the only top 100 recruit, barely sneaking in at 97. 4X National Qualifier making it to the R12 3 of 4 years. I would say that is pretty damn solid production from the #97 LB4LB recruit.

2010: 6th. This is the best group of production KJ has had to date. The funny thing is his 2 top recruits were Finch and Cozart. Cozart was never meant to wrestle DI and KJ may have made a mistake with Finch similar to Meeks which ended up with Finch leaving after 2 years. Still, Moreno was ranked 60th and AA'd twice while Gadson was ranked 65th AAing 3X's(6th, 4th, 1st) capping it off with a National Championship.

He also coached 4 Sanderson recruits to the Finals, with 3 of them winning it all. Long 2nd, Varner, Zabriskie and Reader all won it.

 

[Herkuleez5]

 

[MitchL]

I think 2010 was 2 champs (Varner & Zabriskie)

Welcome to the cesspool!