I actually like the 5-count

[artradley]

My first thought was similar to what others have expressed; if the bottom guy is moving away the top guy might actually be trying to work up but he can't because he has a moving target. But the more I think about it, I figure "So what?" The bottom guy got to a position where the top man effectively has lost control -- they're just hanging on to an ankle.

The good thing about the 5-count is the top man knows a stall is coming, so it's clear to them what they need to do. They can hang on and accept the stall, or they can let go. No guesswork.

Personally, I'm in favor of no longer giving stall warnings on top -- if the official believes the top man is stalling they should just blow the whistle, award an escape, and stop them in neutral. But a pretty decent alternative is identifying specific stall situations, start a count, and let the top guy decide what they're going to do about it. That is way less random and less subjective.



This post was edited on 3/23 3:56 PM by artradley

 

[LutherAce]

i wish it would not be vocal...that just gives the bottom man a countdown...do the motion but don't say anything.

 

[IDrun]

I felt like refs called it with less hesitation. Its less subjective, more objective. Like, "oh look he's on the legs, start counting!" Then its, "I got to 5, the rules say thats a stall." Bam. Stall call.

Seems to me that refs are more comfortable making this type of call.

 

[MVPFAN]

Originally posted by LutherAce:
i wish it would not be vocal...that just gives the bottom man a countdown...do the motion but don't say anything.

True that. Due to them being able to hear it I feel it was abused. I saw way more guys using it to stall by moving up and back down to start the count over than I saw stalling calls. I say get rid of it or make it cumulative so if they pick the count back up where it left off. No new count until a new start.

 

[dicemen99]

Originally posted by MVPFAN:

Originally posted by LutherAce:
i wish it would not be vocal...that just gives the bottom man a countdown...do the motion but don't say anything.

True that. Due to them being able to hear it I feel it was abused. I saw way more guys using it to stall by moving up and back down to start the count over than I saw stalling calls. I say get rid of it or make it cumulative so if they pick the count back up where it left off. No new count until a new start.

If you have the ability to do this (move up and down at your discretion), there is no problem - that is stalling with or without a 5 count and the ref has the ability to call it immediately. I don't agree that this is commonplace.

The 5 count is excellent - takes all subjectivity out of the call, which is what is needed. Now, if it can just be applied in the standing position without subjectivity (I'll admit I haven't thought that one all the way through) AND the push out can be instituted which would probably effectively reduce subjectivity involved stalling in neutral, we will probably be in a situation where the only thing anyone complains about is riding time and stalling on top.

 

[Urohawk]

Unfortunately, I haven't watched a ton of live wrestling this year. I like what I saw on the televised portions on ESPN. Seemed really objective. I didn't see it getting abused but then again I didn't get to watch as much wrestling as I alluded to. I could certainly see where the abuse could happen. I too would favor a silent count. Much like the 3 second lane violation in basketball. Self awareness is important for an athlete.

 

[MVPFAN]

Originally posted by dicemen99:

Originally posted by MVPFAN:

Originally posted by LutherAce:
i wish it would not be vocal...that just gives the bottom man a countdown...do the motion but don't say anything.

True that. Due to them being able to hear it I feel it was abused. I saw way more guys using it to stall by moving up and back down to start the count over than I saw stalling calls. I say get rid of it or make it cumulative so if they pick the count back up where it left off. No new count until a new start.

If you have the ability to do this (move up and down at your discretion), there is no problem - that is stalling with or without a 5 count and the ref has the ability to call it immediately. I don't agree that this is commonplace.

The 5 count is excellent - takes all subjectivity out of the call, which is what is needed. Now, if it can just be applied in the standing position without subjectivity (I'll admit I haven't thought that one all the way through) AND the push out can be instituted which would probably effectively reduce subjectivity involved stalling in neutral, we will probably be in a situation where the only thing anyone complains about is riding time and stalling on top.

The refs have the ability to call all kinds of stalling immediately but they don't, if they did we don't need the five count. The refs were so focused on the 5 count they forgot all the other shit they should call. They let guys have all day before trying to return a guy to the mat and never called crap. They let guys ride parallel and never called crap. Guys fled the mat or got pushed out to avoid giving the escape and never called crap. Holding onto a guys hips and waist is just as much stalling as the legs but it was above the 5 count zone so nothing. It is excellent for nutless refs who can count to 5, really cuts down on their work load.

 

[86_90]

Originally posted by MVPFAN:

Originally posted by dicemen99:

Originally posted by MVPFAN:

Originally posted by LutherAce:
i wish it would not be vocal...that just gives the bottom man a countdown...do the motion but don't say anything.

True that. Due to them being able to hear it I feel it was abused. I saw way more guys using it to stall by moving up and back down to start the count over than I saw stalling calls. I say get rid of it or make it cumulative so if they pick the count back up where it left off. No new count until a new start.

If you have the ability to do this (move up and down at your discretion), there is no problem - that is stalling with or without a 5 count and the ref has the ability to call it immediately. I don't agree that this is commonplace.

The 5 count is excellent - takes all subjectivity out of the call, which is what is needed. Now, if it can just be applied in the standing position without subjectivity (I'll admit I haven't thought that one all the way through) AND the push out can be instituted which would probably effectively reduce subjectivity involved stalling in neutral, we will probably be in a situation where the only thing anyone complains about is riding time and stalling on top.

The refs have the ability to call all kinds of stalling immediately but they don't, if they did we don't need the five count. The refs were so focused on the 5 count they forgot all the other shit they should call. They let guys have all day before trying to return a guy to the mat and never called crap. They let guys ride parallel and never called crap. Guys fled the mat or got pushed out to avoid giving the escape and never called crap. Holding onto a guys hips and waist is just as much stalling as the legs but it was above the 5 count zone so nothing. It is excellent for nutless refs who can count to 5, really cuts down on their work load.

Yes.

They focused on this rule, the 5 count, which was routinely abused by guys repeatedly getting a count and then and only then moving up, and then they would do it again and again. Like MVPFAN said, they were fixated on the count rule while basically discarding all other forms of stalling. Action was not a priority for officials, counting was.

 

[FineMaterial]

Now add a pushout point and we'll see who can really wrestle on their feet.

 

[artradley]

Originally posted by Urohawk:
Unfortunately, I haven't watched a ton of live wrestling this year. I like what I saw on the televised portions on ESPN. Seemed really objective. I didn't see it getting abused but then again I didn't get to watch as much wrestling as I alluded to. I could certainly see where the abuse could happen. I too would favor a silent count. Much like the 3 second lane violation in basketball. Self awareness is important for an athlete.

But making the count silent eliminates its advantages -- transparency and objectivity. Currently the top wrestler doesn't know what is going on in the ref's head, so a stall is almost random. With the count the wrestler knows he's on the verge of having a call and knows he needs to react. Also, if the count is silent the official has too much leeway to add subjectivity to it, so again nobody is sure if or when the official has decided to start counting.

As mentioned earlier, officials seem to be comfortable with the count. Since it's clear they are unwilling to enforce the existing rules, it probably makes sense to find what they are willing to do, then adjust the rules to create the desired effect but in a way that officials will enforce.

 

[PrairieHawk1]

In regards to a proposed push out rule, did they caveat the rule to avoid the situation where you shoot and just drive off the mat instead of trying to finish? I hate that about freestyle.

 

[artradley]

Originally posted by PrairieHawk1:
In regards to a proposed push out rule, did they caveat the rule to avoid the situation where you shoot and just drive off the mat instead of trying to finish? I hate that about freestyle.

I don't have a problem with that; it's just a new, alternative way to score a point. The byproduct is it's harder to stall from neutral; which is great. I think the pushout rule is inevitable.

There are 2 things I don't like about the pushout:
When one wrestler is forcing the action, the other guy backs-up, then matadors the other guy out of bounds.When it's tough to determine who went out first.
I have the solution to this, but it might be more complicated than people would want. That would be to have a "red zone" on the mat as in freestyle. When one wrestler touches the red zone the official gives and holds a signal that this wrestler is in danger. If action continues out of bounds the wrestler in danger gives up the point no matter who went out first. The guy in danger remains in danger until he completely leaves the red zone; whereupon the official releases the signal.

 

[wrstlrev]

The 5-count was the best thing added in a long time to improve college wrestling. A verbal count is what leads to the urgency to do something more than hang on.

A push-out rule would be great, although most of the time I struggle with the "matador" type move to cause the real aggressor to go out first.

 

[texas twister]

Originally posted by 86_90:

Originally posted by MVPFAN:

Originally posted by dicemen99:

Originally posted by MVPFAN:

Originally posted by LutherAce:
i wish it would not be vocal...that just gives the bottom man a countdown...do the motion but don't say anything.

True that. Due to them being able to hear it I feel it was abused. I saw way more guys using it to stall by moving up and back down to start the count over than I saw stalling calls. I say get rid of it or make it cumulative so if they pick the count back up where it left off. No new count until a new start.

If you have the ability to do this (move up and down at your discretion), there is no problem - that is stalling with or without a 5 count and the ref has the ability to call it immediately. I don't agree that this is commonplace.

The 5 count is excellent - takes all subjectivity out of the call, which is what is needed. Now, if it can just be applied in the standing position without subjectivity (I'll admit I haven't thought that one all the way through) AND the push out can be instituted which would probably effectively reduce subjectivity involved stalling in neutral, we will probably be in a situation where the only thing anyone complains about is riding time and stalling on top.

The refs have the ability to call all kinds of stalling immediately but they don't, if they did we don't need the five count. The refs were so focused on the 5 count they forgot all the other shit they should call. They let guys have all day before trying to return a guy to the mat and never called crap. They let guys ride parallel and never called crap. Guys fled the mat or got pushed out to avoid giving the escape and never called crap. Holding onto a guys hips and waist is just as much stalling as the legs but it was above the 5 count zone so nothing. It is excellent for nutless refs who can count to 5, really cuts down on their work load.

Yes.

They focused on this rule, the 5 count, which was routinely abused by guys repeatedly getting a count and then and only then moving up, and then they would do it again and again. Like MVPFAN said, they were fixated on the count rule while basically discarding all other forms of stalling. Action was not a priority for officials, counting was.

We are right back to the root of the problem, the stalling rules are OK, it is the refs. They don't have the balls to call stalling when there is obvious stalling.

 

[86_90]

Originally posted by texas twister:

Originally posted by 86_90:

Originally posted by MVPFAN:

Originally posted by dicemen99:

Originally posted by MVPFAN:

Originally posted by LutherAce:
i wish it would not be vocal...that just gives the bottom man a countdown...do the motion but don't say anything.

True that. Due to them being able to hear it I feel it was abused. I saw way more guys using it to stall by moving up and back down to start the count over than I saw stalling calls. I say get rid of it or make it cumulative so if they pick the count back up where it left off. No new count until a new start.

If you have the ability to do this (move up and down at your discretion), there is no problem - that is stalling with or without a 5 count and the ref has the ability to call it immediately. I don't agree that this is commonplace.

The 5 count is excellent - takes all subjectivity out of the call, which is what is needed. Now, if it can just be applied in the standing position without subjectivity (I'll admit I haven't thought that one all the way through) AND the push out can be instituted which would probably effectively reduce subjectivity involved stalling in neutral, we will probably be in a situation where the only thing anyone complains about is riding time and stalling on top.

The refs have the ability to call all kinds of stalling immediately but they don't, if they did we don't need the five count. The refs were so focused on the 5 count they forgot all the other shit they should call. They let guys have all day before trying to return a guy to the mat and never called crap. They let guys ride parallel and never called crap. Guys fled the mat or got pushed out to avoid giving the escape and never called crap. Holding onto a guys hips and waist is just as much stalling as the legs but it was above the 5 count zone so nothing. It is excellent for nutless refs who can count to 5, really cuts down on their work load.

Yes.

They focused on this rule, the 5 count, which was routinely abused by guys repeatedly getting a count and then and only then moving up, and then they would do it again and again. Like MVPFAN said, they were fixated on the count rule while basically discarding all other forms of stalling. Action was not a priority for officials, counting was.

We are right back to the root of the problem, the stalling rules are OK, it is the refs. They don't have the balls to call stalling when there is obvious stalling.

100% agree.

I'd like to see the top officials brought in as a group. Have these guys review tape of some of the matches they officiated this past year. Have a group of wrestling fans/writers/coaches also review the same matches and see where the difference are. Ask these officials why they are hesitant to call stalling in instances where most see it and they don't? I think they are intimidated by the coaches, but perhaps their are other reasons. Maybe this can be fixed, or maybe they just need new officials. The current dynamic is not working.

 

[Urohawk]

Originally posted by artradley:

Originally posted by Urohawk:
Unfortunately, I haven't watched a ton of live wrestling this year. I like what I saw on the televised portions on ESPN. Seemed really objective. I didn't see it getting abused but then again I didn't get to watch as much wrestling as I alluded to. I could certainly see where the abuse could happen. I too would favor a silent count. Much like the 3 second lane violation in basketball. Self awareness is important for an athlete.

But making the count silent eliminates its advantages -- transparency and objectivity. Currently the top wrestler doesn't know what is going on in the ref's head, so a stall is almost random. With the count the wrestler knows he's on the verge of having a call and knows he needs to react. Also, if the count is silent the official has too much leeway to add subjectivity to it, so again nobody is sure if or when the official has decided to start counting.

As mentioned earlier, officials seem to be comfortable with the count. Since it's clear they are unwilling to enforce the existing rules, it probably makes sense to find what they are willing to do, then adjust the rules to create the desired effect but in a way that officials will enforce.

I think it is a silent count but with a swinging arm. Coaches, fans, and scoring table can see what is going on. Wrestler could watch the ref but if you have time for that you're stalling. I pretty much suck at wrestling so I spent a lot of time on my back in high school. When I was getting counted on for near fall points, some guys would count out loud some would not. Didn't matter to me what the count was. I just had to wrestle to get out from below. Same thing should be happening. Keep wrestling, stay off the ankle, and work for a pin.