If you hate the way stalling is called in College mat wrestling, here is why:
- Thread starter MSU158
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After the Heil vs Lewallen controversy a couple years ago at the NCAA tournament, I lost all hope for a competent structure amongst college wrestling rules and referees. I know there’s other bad examples (insert Ian Miller), but this was the last straw for me. The rule you posted doesn’t surprise me in the slightest on how poorly it’s worded/written.
All in all it comes down to defining 2 things: 1. Action 2. Wrestling aggressively.Interesting. This straight from NCAA.com:
The PSA I attached clearly defines both for the Offensive(Top position) and Defensive(bottom position) wrestlers.
Offensive wrestler-
Action requirements: Must aggressively attempt to breakdown the wrestler and must aggressivley attempt to return him to the mat. Both must be done while maintaining the action close to the center of the mat as possible while also not excessively using the wrist and ankle ride, side headlock or dropping to an ankle(lower leg).
Wrestling aggressively requirement: In the case of the top man it is really nothing additional to the above. As long as you are wrestling aggressively to keep the bottom man broken down and near the center of the mat you are meeting the necessary criteria to avoid a stalling call.
Defensive wrestler-
Action requirements: Initiate action by using tactics/techniques that demonstrate a continuous effort towards improving their position in an effort to secure an eventual escape or reversal.
Wrestling aggressively requirement: The PSA clearly states the onus is on the bottom wrestler to constantly initiate action to attempt to escape/reverse even if locked in possible near-fall holds. Basically, the bottom guy needs to be creating action at all times to visibly improve his position.
The way it reads to me:
1.) Parrallel riding IN NO WAY is stalling as long you you break your opponent down.
2.) Working for near fall is not a requirement.
3.) Bottom guy needs to basically be moving/improving at all times or he is stalling, regardless of what the top guy is doing as long as it isn't excessively using a waste and ankle ride, lower leg ride or a side headlock!
The PSA essentially, not only endorses the Fix double boot ride as perfectly acceptable, it pretty much says the bottom guy is stalling if he can't create action to improve his position!
So if we’re in neutral I can stand there and block off the entire time as long as it’s done “aggressively”, right?
Neutral isn’t a part of this discussion in ANY way. The topic clearly states mat wrestling and the wrestlers are defined as either the offensive or defensive wrestler, meaning top or bottom.
Not sure if this is some weak attempt at a troll job or you simply didn’t read the PSA or my subsequent posts…
No I truly don’t understand the logic behind it, which makes it hard for me take as the truth. Like, how can officials force action from the feet and apparently underneath but simply say, “meh” to a guy riding not attempting to score. I don’t buy THAT interpretation. I’ve bitched for years that every official has a different “read” on the rules and it’s not black and white enough. This would seem to confirm that.
Edit to add: especially with my copy and paste from the NCAA website. I don’t get how THIS interpretation can be accurate. Does that make sense?
If stalling or at least stalemates were called this way then Daton would probably be a National champion with a win over Suriano in 2019. It was called a stalemate at :09 of OT when Daton had both boots in and Suriano was going nowhere.
A Supreme Court justice, when discussing how to define hard-core pornography, stated "I know it when I see it." I feel that NCAA wrestling officials should have wrestled in at least high school, so they know quite well what's going on from the wrestlers' perspective. And of course by the time they're officiating at the college level they've officiated for many few years. Therefore, when a wrestler is stalling, the official has had years of experience as a wrestler and an official, and like Justice Stewart said, they should know it (stalling) when they see it.
For some reason wrestling officials at both high school and college levels are hesitant to call stalling. WHY?! Are they concerned that they're going to anger the coaches? Are they thinking that maybe, if they just let the inaction continue a bit longer, things will change and the stalling wrestler will start to be active? Maybe some of you who have officiated can give us some insight.
I'm all for 1) getting rid of riding time, and 2) officials be pushed hard (by the rules committee? officials assn?) to quickly and aggressively call stalling, to the point where wrestlers become afraid of losing the match, and are "shocked" into constant action.
For some reason wrestling officials at both high school and college levels are hesitant to call stalling. WHY?! Are they concerned that they're going to anger the coaches? Are they thinking that maybe, if they just let the inaction continue a bit longer, things will change and the stalling wrestler will start to be active? Maybe some of you who have officiated can give us some insight.
I'm all for 1) getting rid of riding time, and 2) officials be pushed hard (by the rules committee? officials assn?) to quickly and aggressively call stalling, to the point where wrestlers become afraid of losing the match, and are "shocked" into constant action.
Hey, in no way do I say I like it, let alone endorse it. I was simply being the messenger with a little bit of my personal interpretation based on what I read.
To be clear, these PSA's mid-season(remember they are issued more for the refs than for anyone else) usually have a significant impact on how those sequences are called during the rest of that season. No one has to like it, but I would be VERY surprised if we don't see this being called this way at least until this season ends...
100% honest, I don’t know that I’ve ever seen one of these lol! Regardless, thanks for sharing!
Switch to freestyle, problem solved. Folkstyle sucks for several reasons, this one being the biggest.
The worst part about how stalling is called is that refs who have never called a stall in any other circumstance in their life will call stalling all day long on some poor schlepp stuck on his belly with a guy in top of him, parallel, with double boots in.
After a 30 second ride (without any NF points?) either wrestler can elect to return to neutral with no escape point rewarded. Or you could limit it to restarts (stalemates/oobs)
not full freestyle. But gets ride of long boring rides. Might penalize a prolific turner like Lee, but more on your feet wrestling is way better in general.
not full freestyle. But gets ride of long boring rides. Might penalize a prolific turner like Lee, but more on your feet wrestling is way better in general.
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Same officials who make me wonder if they have ever wrestled a match themselves before and understand what's going on in that situation
I get that you can turn a guy with boots in but for the most part it is a BS stall ride. I say stalemate it after 15 seconds and after that it is a stall warning. They should make wrestlers get out to the side for the turn, riding parallel on the bottom guys hips for an extended period of time should be stalling all day every day. If you nail them for it then they will not ride and you get back to the feet.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
Guest
Exactly. People can be pedantic with the ambiguous wording in the rules all they want. The reality is wrestlers, coaches, and refs know stalling when they see it (generally).
Clean up the wording in the rules to reduce ambiguity, sure that'd be great. But you can't pretend that there aren't many positions/scenarios in the sport of wrestling that are somewhat subjective and rely on convention and precedence to officiate. Stalling is one of them.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
Guest
Someone in the twitter comments pointed this out:
Please note the 2nd paragraph in the Summary, "Despite the defensive wrestler having a great responsibility, the OFFENSIVE wrestler may still be called for STALLING if the referee determines they are utilizing an offensive strategy to avoid further wrestling."
That sentence gives refs power to use their judgement to call the top wrestler for stalling if they're riding for the sake of stalling.
Cleaning up the rules could improve things, but the rules already give refs the authority to call stalling judiciously. Many just won't do it.
Please note the 2nd paragraph in the Summary, "Despite the defensive wrestler having a great responsibility, the OFFENSIVE wrestler may still be called for STALLING if the referee determines they are utilizing an offensive strategy to avoid further wrestling."
That sentence gives refs power to use their judgement to call the top wrestler for stalling if they're riding for the sake of stalling.
Cleaning up the rules could improve things, but the rules already give refs the authority to call stalling judiciously. Many just won't do it.
The problem is the PSA basically advised refs on how to lean when wrestlers are in these positions. If the bottom guy isn't showing visible effort to constantly improve his position, the refs will be looking to call stalling on the bottom man prior to even considering the top guy as long as he isn't utilizing the 3 stalling tactics specified.
So again, it doesn't mean the top guy can't be called for stalling, but he sure has a TON of room to ride parrallel as long as the bottom guy is broken down flat and is showing limited to no signs of improving his position...
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Is the PSA something official that refs have to read/take into account or is it just a tweet from coach Ward?
It’s official direct from the secretary rules editor for the NCAA Chuck Barbee.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
Guest
I say eliminate the stalemate altogether. If you are in a neutral position and one guy is trying to improve and the other is holding on to avoid be scored upon, (we see it all the time in scrambles) hit him for stalling. If you are on the mat and a guy is escaping or working to get away and they get in a position where the action stops, hit the top guy for stalling. So often when one guy is about to score the other guy shuts him down and they get into a "stalemate". Make those positions stalling and you will see more action and more points.
As far as letting them back on their feet in 30 seconds, how will that help if the guys on their feet stall? I like what they do in freestyle with fleeing a hold.
And why did we ever do away with the stalling call when guys block with their head? That was great for creating action.
As far as letting them back on their feet in 30 seconds, how will that help if the guys on their feet stall? I like what they do in freestyle with fleeing a hold.
And why did we ever do away with the stalling call when guys block with their head? That was great for creating action.
And why did we ever do away with the stalling call when guys block with their head? That was great for creating action.
This!!!
I refereed in the 80’s. When the bottom man was being overpowered, it was the top man’s obligation to get off parallel, get perpendicular and work for back points and the fall.
It seems to be forgotten that the objective in a match is to pin your opponent.
This!!!
I refereed in the 80’s. When the bottom man was being overpowered, it was the top man’s obligation to get off parallel, get perpendicular and work for back points and the fall.
It seems to be forgotten that the objective in a match is to pin your opponent.
Barbee, Okie St guy, no wonder stalling is called or not called, the way it is. Makes more sense now.
This PSA really shows that the folkstyle emphasis leans slightly more to the ability to control versus to score when not in neutral. It's definitely not freestyle.
The onus is on the wrestler in the bottom position. They must try to escape, but the top man does not have to aggressively try and score back points, it appears. And when the bottom man gets to his feet, the top man is to attempt to bring him back down to the mat and keep him in the circle, but this bottom man must aggressively try to escape.
This makes me think of something last year that really irked me. Warner was trying to break a guy down, and keep him in the circle, and the guy obsessively tried to get out of bounds, and Warner held on even dragging his feet, proving the bottom man was trying to flee, yet Warner was hit with the stall.
And I don't think they're generally calling it right in that position. So many times, when the bottom man makes it to his feet, he is obviously trying more to just not be down on the mat, versus trying to escape. The refs call the top man for stalling, even when he is trying to bring him back, but just can't get it done because the bottom man is just trying to "hold ground." It's very hard to return a man when he is not trying to really escape.
The onus is on the wrestler in the bottom position. They must try to escape, but the top man does not have to aggressively try and score back points, it appears. And when the bottom man gets to his feet, the top man is to attempt to bring him back down to the mat and keep him in the circle, but this bottom man must aggressively try to escape.
This makes me think of something last year that really irked me. Warner was trying to break a guy down, and keep him in the circle, and the guy obsessively tried to get out of bounds, and Warner held on even dragging his feet, proving the bottom man was trying to flee, yet Warner was hit with the stall.
And I don't think they're generally calling it right in that position. So many times, when the bottom man makes it to his feet, he is obviously trying more to just not be down on the mat, versus trying to escape. The refs call the top man for stalling, even when he is trying to bring him back, but just can't get it done because the bottom man is just trying to "hold ground." It's very hard to return a man when he is not trying to really escape.
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