Iowa HS Football pet peeve....

[joelbc1]

The dutch folk have plenty of Christians schools that do the same thing. For some reason Catholics always get singled out though.

That is NOT the point. The point isit isn't right that a school from a town the has perhaps 15k living in its district has to compete against a school were the population is 10Xs of more larger. I used the Pella/Xavier comparison as it is one I am a little familiar with and it illustrates my point.

 

[Hawgk]

That is NOT the point. The point isit isn't right that a school from a town the has perhaps 15k living in its district has to compete against a school were the population is 10Xs of more larger. I used the Pella/Xavier comparison as it is one I am a little familiar with and it illustrates my point.

And you can blame it on the baby boomers as the millennials are too young to have any influence.

 

[lucas80]

Lucas is pissed off at the world he must be a real treat to live with.

Mad because you missed the Twilight marathon?

 

[cidhawkeye]

Pelli has it's own advantages. Not sure casting stones is appropriate for them. Straight multipliers have not been to shown to work in the limited amount of states that have them. A separate class for private schools probably isn't the answer either. Some states have success multipliers, some use multipliers are based on reduced lunch rates, surprised nobody broke out the 'I know someone in Illinois....' putting their multiplier in would apply to every school in Iowa.

 

[IamHawkeye]

Xavier "conveniently" caps their enrollment to keep themselves in 3A. Outside of the Xavier-folk in CR, they are despised and considered a joke. They proudly claim 100 State Championships (I exaggerate) in all sports, but rational people only give them credit for 1 (4A FB 10 years ago or so). Catholic schools need a 1.5 multiplier. Seems fair. Their 800 hand-picked students (and athletes) are quite different than Pella's (and other 3A schools) 800 students. The sad thing is, they could compete in 4A and do very well.

Not long ago the largest class was based, for football, on the conference a school belonged to. Thus, Assumption, as an example was in the largest playoff class. Then the largest class went to districts like the smaller classes. So the parochial schools that belonged to the large size conferences, changed to districts based on their enrollments.

 

[hawkcub]

If you really believed this you would have to question the fact that 10,000 people live in a 20 mile radius of my town; yet how many live in a 20 mile radius of Regina, Xavier, or Columbus.
The open enrollment argument is a piss poor one because most people are not going to drive that far just to open enroll for sports. When there are 1,500-2,500 kids in your grade within 20 miles (if not far more for Xavier) compared to 175 in my 20 mile radius you can see the disparity. If you can’t you’re an idiot.

also don't forget with this argument that if a student open enrolls they cannot participate in athletics for one semester. That doesn't apply to the private schools.

 

[Obviously Oblivious]

I think it is crazy that parochial schools in CR, Davenport and Sioux City are allowed to play in smaller class divisions.
I know the “school size” argument is accepted but.......these schools all recruit their students and they recruit these students from larger metro areas in IOWA.
For example tonight, my alma mater Pella plays at Xavier, CR. Now Pella draws its students and players from about 15k people.......Xavier draws its student body/athletes from about 150k - 200k population. Similar numbers can be drawn when talking Heelan or Assumption and their opponents. It just is not a square deal and puts honest to goodness small programs a\t a huge disadvantage.
The current system is about as fair as having all schools play each other without divisions.

Let the parochial schools have their athletic achievements. They’re certainly not outperforming the public schools in the classrooms.

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

Let the parochial schools have their athletic achievements. They’re certainly not outperforming the public schools in the classrooms.

I guess you couldn't be more wrong....


Percent of ACT-Tested Graduates Ready for College-Level Work, 2015 Public Private English Reading Mathematics Science 61% 44% 40% 36% 85% 66% 60% 55% Average ACT Composite Scores Class of 2015 Public Private 20.7 16.9 18.6 23.8 19.6 22.3 All Students Black/African Am. Hispanic/Latino Students with diplomas from private high schools are considerably more likely to be ready for college than those with diplomas from other schools, according to data from ACT, which produces a standardized test for college admission that carries the same name. Eightyfive percent of 2015 graduates of religious and independent schools who took the ACT met or exceeded the test’s college readiness benchmark score in English, compared to 61 percent of graduates from public schools. The share of students who met or surpassed the benchmark scores in other subjects was also higher in private schools (reading – 66 percent vs. 44 percent; math – 60 vs. 40; science – 55 vs. 36). More than 1.9 million students, an estimated 59 percent of 2015 high school graduates, took the ACT. Just over 10 percent of ACT-takers, or 197,645 students, graduated from private schools. ACT released on August 26 The Condition of College & Career Readiness 2015, its annual report on the readiness of high school graduates for college. At CAPE’s request, the company compiled comparable data for private school graduates. ACT reports that students who meet the college readiness benchmarks “are more likely to persist in college and earn a degree than those who don’t.” Specifically, the benchmarks represent “the minimum score students must earn on each of the four ACT subject tests to have about a 75 percent chance of earning a grade of C or higher and a 50 percent chance of earning a B or higher in a typical credit-bearing first-year college course in that subject area.” Average ACT scores for 2015 graduates of private schools well exceeded the national average. The ACT mean composite score for 2015 private school graduates was 23.8, compared to 20.7 for public school graduates (see table). Moreover, the private school

 

[Bulldogs1974]

I guess you couldn't be more wrong....


Percent of ACT-Tested Graduates Ready for College-Level Work, 2015 Public Private English Reading Mathematics Science 61% 44% 40% 36% 85% 66% 60% 55% Average ACT Composite Scores Class of 2015 Public Private 20.7 16.9 18.6 23.8 19.6 22.3 All Students Black/African Am. Hispanic/Latino Students with diplomas from private high schools are considerably more likely to be ready for college than those with diplomas from other schools, according to data from ACT, which produces a standardized test for college admission that carries the same name. Eightyfive percent of 2015 graduates of religious and independent schools who took the ACT met or exceeded the test’s college readiness benchmark score in English, compared to 61 percent of graduates from public schools. The share of students who met or surpassed the benchmark scores in other subjects was also higher in private schools (reading – 66 percent vs. 44 percent; math – 60 vs. 40; science – 55 vs. 36). More than 1.9 million students, an estimated 59 percent of 2015 high school graduates, took the ACT. Just over 10 percent of ACT-takers, or 197,645 students, graduated from private schools. ACT released on August 26 The Condition of College & Career Readiness 2015, its annual report on the readiness of high school graduates for college. At CAPE’s request, the company compiled comparable data for private school graduates. ACT reports that students who meet the college readiness benchmarks “are more likely to persist in college and earn a degree than those who don’t.” Specifically, the benchmarks represent “the minimum score students must earn on each of the four ACT subject tests to have about a 75 percent chance of earning a grade of C or higher and a 50 percent chance of earning a B or higher in a typical credit-bearing first-year college course in that subject area.” Average ACT scores for 2015 graduates of private schools well exceeded the national average. The ACT mean composite score for 2015 private school graduates was 23.8, compared to 20.7 for public school graduates (see table). Moreover, the private school

Link?

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Pelli has it's own advantages. Not sure casting stones is appropriate for them. Straight multipliers have not been to shown to work in the limited amount of states that have them. A separate class for private schools probably isn't the answer either. Some states have success multipliers, some use multipliers are based on reduced lunch rates, surprised nobody broke out the 'I know someone in Illinois....' putting their multiplier in would apply to every school in Iowa.

How can Pella have advantages? You’ve consistently said the Regina has no advantages over rural schools. How can this be?
Please note that Pella, Waverly, and decorah do have advantages in 3a.

 

[cidhawkeye]

How can Pella have advantages? You’ve consistently said the Regina has no advantages over rural schools. How can this be?
Please note that Pella, Waverly, and decorah do have advantages in 3a.

I don't believe you are accurate in what you attribute to me. Regina does have advantages, I have always admitted that. My position is that they have some severe disadvantages as well. Pella has some significant advantages and fewer disadvantages.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Population trumps all. Any disadvantage you think Regina has is dwarfed by its population advantage. absolutely dwarfed.

 

[hawkssox1]

Let the parochial schools have their athletic achievements. They’re certainly not outperforming the public schools in the classrooms.

Uh huh.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Population trumps all. Any disadvantage you think Regina has is dwarfed by its population advantage. absolutely dwarfed.

That explains their booming enrollment numbers and huge numbers of players on their teams. Are you part of the 'they cap their enrollment to stay in 1A' crowd as well?

 

[joelbc1]

Population trumps all. Any disadvantage you think Regina has is dwarfed by its population advantage. absolutely dwarfed.

You give me a bigger pond, I will find more fish to choose from. The more fish I have to choose from...the chances are I can find a higher quality fish than the guy working a smaller pond.

 

[ThorneStockton]

We had some private schools in NJ that even recruit out of state. Bergen Catholic once got a wrestler from Romania! Then the coaches and parents strut around like peacocks as if they’ve accomplished something by whooping up on everybody else.

The coaches train with top college and pro coaches around the country, donors will house kids for free so they can be “local” without forcing parents to move, and they pluck the best talent from a four state region - then act as if beating public schools is a result of their superior coaching.

I understand when wrestlers transfer to another school to get the best coaching. But I won't ever get why people get the satisfaction that you've described at the high school level.

I'm close friends with a guy who was a tremendous wrestler in Iowa. He got recruited by high schools, even the other public school in the town, bizarre.

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

Regina has a huge draw from Cosgrove. Those kids could be playing for Tiffin, on the artificial turf paid for by Ashton Kutcher ( and Demi Moore, I suppose )

 

[ghost80]

???? ftd?

fify

 

[joelbc1]

I don't believe you are accurate in what you attribute to me. Regina does have advantages, I have always admitted that. My position is that they have some severe disadvantages as well. Pella has some significant advantages and fewer disadvantages.

cid....please tell me what significant advantages Pella enjoys and list a few of its disadvantages, too. The district would include Otley and Leighton, too. I am curious......Pella is relatively prosperous...but it as its bust-outs too.

 

[Tom Paris]

Yeah I have heard that, but even most of the kids I know that attend our church, go to the local private school. They have been attending the private schools all their life.

I don't know how Iowa can fix this, making them play up a class they are at a clear disadvantage vs the larger schools. Schools like Assumption & Heelan would not be able to be competitive vs large schools. Xavier would probably be able to hold their own. I know other states have a 1.5 multiplier I believe, but I don't think that would work in the state of Iowa. Unless they add another class, which we know that won't happen.

Assumption won a 5A league in girls basketball 10 years in a row. They win the league in various sports often. Dominating small towns, who can't compete with the Catholic schools is FAR more common.

 

[joelbc1]

I should have said Catholic schools in general provide superior education to public schools. There are some public schools that do provide strong education but in general public schools provide poor education. Parents are largely to blame also but public schools are providing minimal education. Public schools are frequently more of a daycare than educational institution. If you live in Iowa you may not realize due to Iowa being among the best.

 

[hawkssox1]

Assumption won a 5A league in girls basketball 10 years in a row. They win the league in various sports often. Dominating small towns, who can't compete with the Catholic schools is FAR more common.

If you're so pissed off do something about it instead of whining about it on here.

 

[Tom Paris]

If you're so pissed off do something about it instead of whining about it on here.

I don't work for the athletic unions, but thanks for the advice.

 

[Pinehawk]

Regina has a huge draw from Cosgrove. Those kids could be playing for Tiffin, on the artificial turf paid for by Ashton Kutcher ( and Demi Moore, I suppose )

Lol. Cosgrove? There are about 15 houses in Cosgrove.

Regina loses more kids to public school than they gain. I can think of more than 10 kids who have left in recent years who would have helped athletically. That side of the issue never seems to come up.
The highest profile recently was Regina's top basketball player transferring to West High last spring for his upcoming Junior and Senior seasons.

And, by the way, the person above who said transfers to private school wouldn't have to sit out 90 like everyone else is completely wrong.

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

Lol. Cosgrove? There are about 15 houses in Cosgrove.

Regina loses more kids to public school than they gain. I can think of more than 10 kids who have left in recent years who would have helped athletically. That side of the issue never seems to come up.
The highest profile recently was Regina's top basketball player transferring to West High last spring for his upcoming Junior and Senior seasons.

And, by the way, the person above who said transfers to private school wouldn't have to sit out 90 like everyone else is completely wrong.

Joking around. I went to Regina and so did my kids. I can't think of a single kid recruited in the all the years I was there. We did have a some kids from Oxford/Cosgrove and Hills but mostly just kids from St Pats/Marys. The only kid even close was Alou Keita who was a skinny foreign exchange student who weighed about a buck fifty when he arrived. He grew about 8 inches and gained 100 pounds and could eventually make dunks and 2 foot bank shots. Regina's basketball heyday was all local farm and city kids from big families with brothers who beat on each other.

 

[whatsup13579er]

Absolutely....but these schools are locared in SMALL districts, not metro districts.....My point.....the Catholic schools in Davenport, Sioux City and CR are drawing off a much muhj larger population base than Pella Christian or Western Christian, Hull......Again do the math....CR, Davenport Sioux City are 100k=250k population bases....Pella, Sioux Center are drawing off of maybe 10k to 15k....10Xs the difference....

Hull WC has been pulling kids in from all over NW IA for years. Their base is Sioux County which has about 33k population. They routinely pull kids from O'Brien, Osecola, and Lyon Counties as well. They've even have kids come down from Minnesota nearly an hour away. Add it all up and they are drawing kids from a population of roughly 65k and playing 2A competition.

The real kicker in the public/private debate is the public schools have to take everyone. There is a portion of each class that will never contribute to society let alone sports. This includes the bottom 10-20-25%? Who knows what the actual number is but those kids will never contribute but are still counted. Private schools would never touch those kids. All of their students are capable.

 

[SoDakHawk]

Pella lost 14-6, its not like they were overmatched.

SB-L beat Heelan 42-0 in 3A

Earlier in this thread I pointed out how the suburban schools are taking advantage of open enrollment. SBL is taking in players that should be at SC East and other players from all over town, including players that were in the Saders youth sports programs that are going to SBL. SBL out recruiting everybody in Sioux City but not a word because they are a public school. I really have no problem with it as those are the rules. I just don't like the hypocrisy and the whining about the unfair private schools.

As for Heelan, every alumni I know hates 3A and thinks we should go back to 4A where we had competed just fine for our entire existence. Heelan has a brand new campus, I would use it. Move up to 4A and recruit like crazy, and I wouldn't even apologize for it as Dowling, Valley, etc, etc all recruit too, so who cares, it's 4A. Tough to complain about a small private school willingly playing against schools with a 1500-2000 enrollment, 5-6 times the size and then use "recruiting" as an excuse against them. They'd have to do it because they would need about twice as many football players in the program if they wanted to compete. Sidelines are pretty light these days.

If people want to make the private schools have a BEDS multiplier I would be fine with that. Heelan has a BEDS number of 367 for 2018-2019, 87th in the state. Throw a 1.5x multiplier on that and they are still solidly 3A. Throw a 2x multiplier on them and they still might not be 4A as they would be right on the very bottom of 4A/top of 3A around North Scott & Clinton numbers.

 

[hawkcub]

Lol. Cosgrove? There are about 15 houses in Cosgrove.

Regina loses more kids to public school than they gain. I can think of more than 10 kids who have left in recent years who would have helped athletically. That side of the issue never seems to come up.
The highest profile recently was Regina's top basketball player transferring to West High last spring for his upcoming Junior and Senior seasons.

And, by the way, the person above who said transfers to private school wouldn't have to sit out 90 like everyone else is completely wrong.

I stand corrected on this I was wrong. But the transfers aren't the issue to be honest. It's the numbers game of engaged parents. If you're paying almost all parents are going to be highly engaged parents. Not to say public school parents aren't. But there is a certain percentage who just don't care or have the time at the public school. Also throw in the fact public schools have to take special need kids. Something private schools don't.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Hull WC has been pulling kids in from all over NW IA for years. Their base is Sioux County which has about 33k population. They routinely pull kids from O'Brien, Osecola, and Lyon Counties as well. They've even have kids come down from Minnesota nearly an hour away. Add it all up and they are drawing kids from a population of roughly 65k and playing 2A competition.

The real kicker in the public/private debate is the public schools have to take everyone. There is a portion of each class that will never contribute to society let alone sports. This includes the bottom 10-20-25%? Who knows what the actual number is but those kids will never contribute but are still counted. Private schools would never touch those kids. All of their students are capable.

Yeah talk about the free lunches. The FREE LUNCHES I TELL YOU!!!!

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Joking around. I went to Regina and so did my kids. I can't think of a single kid recruited in the all the years I was there. We did have a some kids from Oxford/Cosgrove and Hills but mostly just kids from St Pats/Marys. The only kid even close was Alou Keita who was a skinny foreign exchange student who weighed about a buck fifty when he arrived. He grew about 8 inches and gained 100 pounds and could eventually make dunks and 2 foot bank shots. Regina's basketball heyday was all local farm and city kids from big families with brothers who beat on each other.

what foreign exchange student, that stays for 1 year, grows 8 inches and 100 pounds?
I can't imagine what some teams i've seen in basketball could do if they were able to add 1 good kid a year because they are surrounded by 100k people.
Please share this tale with the kids from North Linn, that had to play a des moines private school and see what they think.

 

[hawkmart]

Is there enough private & parochial teams in the state to give them their own division for post season play? Like Texas does and I'm sure some other states.

 

[srams21]

Meh. As long as Solon loses tonight I don't care. City High is stuck in mediocrity until Dan Sabers is fired. Actually, mediocrity would be a step up after getting humiliated against West High. There is no reason for City to be a 2-7 team.

Yea, what the heck has happened to City High football?

I assume it will be harder to contend in the future with Liberty in the picture too.

 

[HawkeyeShawn]

We run into this over in western Iowa. St. Albert in CB was always rumored to recruit. It may have been our upset fans starting those rumors when we would always get beat by them. S.A. has come back down to earth a bit lately, but they had a dominant run in football over the past several years. They lost their HC this past year, so they’ve had a bit of a slip. I’ve always felt that they are more than an “1A” school and should be 2A. Our small school also got a taste of the Catholic school tipping of the scales when our baseball team went to state the past few years. We got worked by Don Bosco and Neumann Catholic Mason City. Our team was damn good both years but were overmatched at State.

 

[thewop]

I think it is crazy that parochial schools in CR, Davenport and Sioux City are allowed to play in smaller class divisions.
I know the “school size” argument is accepted but.......these schools all recruit their students and they recruit these students from larger metro areas in IOWA.
For example tonight, my alma mater Pella plays at Xavier, CR. Now Pella draws its students and players from about 15k people.......Xavier draws its student body/athletes from about 150k - 200k population. Similar numbers can be drawn when talking Heelan or Assumption and their opponents. It just is not a square deal and puts honest to goodness small programs a\t a huge disadvantage.
The current system is about as fair as having all schools play each other without divisions.

Silly argument. Varies widely by parochial school too. Not all of them are flush with cash, and not all of them prioritize sports. In fact, if you take stock of all private schools, you'll find that just as with public schools, very few are actually competitive at sports. However, bitter men who spend way too much time thinking about high school sports have won in some places...

In Virginia, where I live, private schools don't play against public schools, they have their own state tournaments, leagues, etc. As a result they travel for hours to most road games, even though they could play many similar sized schools within 40 minutes to an hour of campus (mind you, they would be for the most part on the same level competitively, if not lower). I remember hearing about this, but until I actually talked to someone who played soccer at a private school didn't realize how ridiculous it was. There was a time in my life when I may have thought like you. Not anymore.

It's High School sports, and it simply doesn't matter that much. It's more important that they have a solid education than that an extremely small number of schools are "dealt with" to ensure lesser teams can win.

 

[CarolinaHawkeye]

We run into this over in western Iowa. St. Albert in CB was always rumored to recruit. It may have been our upset fans starting those rumors when we would always get beat by them. S.A. has come back down to earth a bit lately, but they had a dominant run in football over the past several years. They lost their HC this past year, so they’ve had a bit of a slip. I’ve always felt that they are more than an “1A” school and should be 2A. Our small school also got a taste of the Catholic school tipping of the scales when our baseball team went to state the past few years. We got worked by Don Bosco and Neumann Catholic Mason City. Our team was damn good both years but were overmatched at State.

I have no idea if you are old enough to remember Jerome Howa, the miler from Treynor in the 60s. His twin brother was a very good football player and was recruited to play at St Albert. Their older brother was a friend of mine and repeated it several times. Anyway, these days, my relatives in counciltucky claim the Lewis Central takes good players away from Abe Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson.

 

[hawkedoff]

Get over it and welcome to life. My okdeet son would have been a varsity athlete in small town Iowa school. He doesn't go to a small town school though and so JV it was. My next son will be a division one athlete. Already has three big tens calling and a whole bunch of others. He has a whole lot more natural talent and drive than...well everyone.

Thems the breaks. Pella got beat by xavier? So what. Xavier has an unfair advantage? So does my son

You know what small town schools have that schools like Xavier don't have? The entire town. Everyone. All aboard. K-12. If you don't see the advantage of something like that well you can't be helped. Control over the entire life cycle of every single athlete or potential athlete in the town. Entire families in one school. Being able to design a program from the second a kid steps on any field to find what they are good at and help them develop. Hell...just knowing they exist prior to ninth grade.

That sounds like a lot of work though.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I find it crazy that it's even considered plausible that high schools would "recruit" players and the school itself would play ball with reduced or free tuition.

It's high school.

Seems to me if schools are going to be recruiting and scholarshiping players they aught to play in their own league.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Seems to me if schools are going to be recruiting and scholarshiping players they aught to play in their own league.

I agree, all those schools with open enrolled kids need to play in the same league.... just like they do now.

 

[3boysmom]

I don't know. I know recruiting happens in both public and private because I've seen it. The bigger issue though are parents who have been planning since birth for little Johnny or Sara to play for championships. They buy a house in the best district or send them to private school. They spend loads of money on special training. They form teams in elementary school that will play together through high school. Those kids from families with means don't have to get a part time job in high school, they can concentrate on their sport(s). They have the best equipment, coaches, camps. Private schools and some suburban schools have a far larger percentage of these families than other schools. When you are talking about high school sports it makes a huge difference.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I don't know. I know recruiting happens in both public and private because I've seen it. The bigger issue though are parents who have been planning since birth for little Johnny or Sara to play for championships. They buy a house in the best district or send them to private school. They spend loads of money on special training. They form teams in elementary school that will play together through high school. Those kids from families with means don't have to get a part time job in high school, they can concentrate on their sport(s). They have the best equipment, coaches, camps. Private schools and some suburban schools have a far larger percentage of these families than other schools. When you are talking about high school sports it makes a huge difference.

A few of my favorite high school sports stories, a kid leaving a school his relatives all attended because of a conflict with a coach, sits out the end of that season, the coach that he 'left' then gets hired to coach the school that he went to.
Addressing the 3boysmom part, my kids attended a strong soccer school, my daughter decides to play soccer for the first time as a freshman, no youth soccer, camps etc. ends up getting solid minutes and 50/50 starts on a team that lost in the semifinals at state, I am sure that went over well with the people who had invested thousands so their daughter could play high school soccer.
Getting approached by a public school coach about my youngest transferring to their school to play football
It happens on both sides of the blocks, yes the opportunity for it to occur is greater in a larger population area(big pond). To say that it doesn't happen at rural schools is not being honest. Watch 1A state wrestling some time, heck watch all of the wrestling. It happens everywhere.