Partial defense of Perkins - he frustrated me at times as well with how he sometimes disappeared in games; he did have a hand/arm injury the last 5 or 6 games of the season as well that affected him when we needed him the most.
Iowa Men 17th in the B1G this season? Field of 68 (Sean Paul) has Iowa 6th
- Thread starter Franisdaman
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Great post, BirdIs.
I don't think this is a conference tourney missing type roster either but top 5?
I don't see that at all.
Will our portal talents transfer to the B1G? I don't know but even if they do, I really don't expect them to add much because they didn't add much at lower level programs.
I can tell you that no B1G program that added transfers added as unheralded transfers as we did. Fran has earned the benefit of the doubt when evaluating talent but....let's gave it, these adds aren't scaring anyone.
I don't think this is a conference tourney missing type roster either but top 5?
I don't see that at all.
Will our portal talents transfer to the B1G? I don't know but even if they do, I really don't expect them to add much because they didn't add much at lower level programs.
I can tell you that no B1G program that added transfers added as unheralded transfers as we did. Fran has earned the benefit of the doubt when evaluating talent but....let's gave it, these adds aren't scaring anyone.
When Peter Jok's 20ppg graduated, Iowa went from 80.5/game to 79.7/game.
When Garza's 24ppg and Joe W's 15ppg graduated, Iowa went from 83.7game to 83.2/game.
When Keegan's 23ppg graduated, Iowa went from 83.2/game to 80.1/game.
When Kris's 20ppg graduated, Iowa went from 80.1/game to 83.1/game.
Fran's teams have 0 problems reloading on offense
We were picked 11-13 last year and finished 8th.
8-12 is a good guess, imo.
Is 8th a tourney team?
It wasn't last year but no one knows until March.
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Not the point of my post. Replacing Tony P, Krikke, and Pats' 37 points/game isn't going to be an issue that burdens this Iowa team's upcoming season.
I would add to this that Wisconsin (Hepburn & Storr) , Minnesota (Cameron Christie)and Illinois (5 players including Coleman Hawkins and Luke Goode) all lost some of their best players. Last I read, Iowa was rated as one of the best outcomes in the Big from transfers in/out.
Where did you read this about Iowa being "rated as one of the best outcomes..."? Please link it.
Illinois' portal additions look much, much better. The Lithuanian guard and the Croatian center are both projected lottery picks. PG Boswell started for Arizona last year. Booth and White were both top 60 recruits for high major programs...
Michigan loaded up. Indiana loaded up. Purdue, Michigan State, Maryland, Ohio State, UCLA, all seem to have better rosters coming back.
Would love to see how someone reasons that Iowa is in a better situation than any of these programs.
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I see no one took me up on this.
Wise choice. Discretion is the better part of valor.
Ben Johnson
Steve Pikiell
Fred Hoiberg
Mike Woodson
Kevin Willard - although limited data, hasn’t been “better”
Chris Collins - has been equal, AT BEST, and that’s being very generous to Collins and how poor Northwestern’s history is.
Mike Rhoades - hasn’t shown that he’s better
five of them have never coached a B1G game and one has less than half of a season.
So, that leaves Izzo, Painter, Underwood, Greg Gard (who was set up fairly nicely) as being better and all are in much better traditional basketball programs.
Not quite sure what your point was, but I’m confident it missed by a lot.
My point was that a poster was trying to argue that Iowa will be better this year because inter alia, there are so many "bad coaches" in the B1G. Fran is, in the most generous analysis, no better than the 12th best coach in the league.
So...the poster's argument was fatally flawed.
Please link your article.
Here's one that argues that (at least) Purdue, Michigan Indiana, and Illinois had better outcomes in the B1G.
Men's college basketball Top 25: Alabama, Gonzaga, Houston lead updated rankings
With the NBA early-entry withdrawal deadline passed and the transfer portal mostly settled, we finally have some clarity on rosters.
www.nytimes.com
Fatally flawed because you didn’t comprehend it? What he said was “A lot of mediocre teams, bad coaches and heavy losses to the NBA/transfers”. You took just the bad coaches part of it though.
Who are the 11 better coaches when being very generous?
1. Dana Altman (obvious)
2. Tom Izzo (obvious)
3. Matt Painter (obvious)
4. Eric Musselman (obvious)
5. Mick Cronin (obvious)
6. Dusty May (obvious)
7. Brad Underwood (obvious)
8. Greg Gard (obvious)
9. Fred Hoiberg (sweet 16, B1G coach of year, 2 B12 conference tourney championships etc.)
10. Chris Collins (2d place in B1G at northwestern. Fran has never accomplished that at Iowa.)
11. Kevin Willard (has won major conference (Big East) regular season title).
Sprinkle and Rhoades are also probably better coaches. Time will tell.
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😂 where to begin?
Hoiberg in 98 conference games, of similar competition is 30-68 (.306).
Chris Collins in B1G conference games 80–129 (.383).
Clearly better by generous analysis
1. Dana Altman (obvious)
2. Tom Izzo (obvious)
3. Matt Painter (obvious)
4. Eric Musselman (obvious)
5. Mick Cronin (obvious)
6. Dusty May (obvious)
7. Brad Underwood (obvious)
8. Greg Gard (obvious)
9. Fred Hoiberg (sweet 16, B1G coach of year, 2 B12 conference tourney championships etc.)
10. Chris Collins (2d place in B1G at northwestern. Fran has never accomplished that at Iowa.)
11. Kevin Willard (has won major conference (Big East) regular season title).
LMAO at "where to begin" and then quibble over 2 coaches. Sweet sixteen appearance alone makes hoiberg better than Fran. What Collins has accomplished at a place like northwestern is significantly more impressive than anything Fran has done at Iowa.
So...Go on...
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Indeed.
Is that it? With all that build up?
A weak quibble with 2 coaches? lol
So Fran is the 10th best coach in the league in your opinion?
They'd better give him a raise.
Todd Lickliter: (NABC Coach of the Year, Sweet 16 X2, won the Horizon multiple times). I’m sure he’s better too 😂
You’ve listed four coaches who’ve never coached a conference game in the B1G and Kevin Willard. We’ll see how they end up. By then you’ll have a new handle, that’s for true and troll with a new narrative.
Lickliter?
Good God, you're one of those.... Btw, Juwan Howard (B1G regular season championship and elite eight also better than Fran. Let that sink in.
Anyway... Just 2? So Fran is the 10th best coach in the B1G, right?
Yeah, are you seriously going to claim that a guy who's coached for 30 years and never once made the second weekend of the tourney is better than Altman, Cronin, May, and Musselman?
Ahahahahaha
Ok...
We’re in a better position mostly because of what we retained, as Ive pointed out. Retention is as important as recruiting transfers in this day. I get it, you don’t like Sandfort, Dix and Freeman. I personally have a much higher opinion of their worth. We’ll see who right. It’s all just for fun, right?
Btw, the only coaches in the Big right now that have made the NCAA finals are Izzo, who’s way past his prime, and Painter, who’s probably the best. The rest haven’t produced or proven more than Fran. A lot of mediocrity and unknowns.
"Retention is as important as recruiting transfers in this day."
Simply false. Having the best talent is the most important thing. Retaining a mediocre or bad team gets you another mediocre or bad season.
"I get it, you don’t like Sandfort, Dix and Freeman."
You don't get anything. I don't not like any of those players. All three are good players. My point -- pay attention and concentrate real hard this time -- is that all of these players plus Perkins were on the team last year, and that team was 8th place in the league and wasn't a tournament team. Now we're bringing the same players back MINUS all big ten guard Perkins, and adding two players that I am not impressed with at all. So if you're going to be accurate about what I don't like, it's our portal additions.
"Btw, the only coaches in the Big right now that have made the NCAA finals are Izzo, who’s way past his prime, and Painter, who’s probably the best. The rest (of B1G coaches outside of Painter and Izzo) haven’t produced or proven more than Fran."
Holy sh*t. Can you really believe this? Can you really be this silly?
"The finals" ? The finals? Really? Are you kidding? lol
As if Fran has accomplished everything those coaches have except for making the NCAA finals? Ahahahaha. Oh my God....what world are you living in?
Any coach that has made the second weekend or has won a regular season power conference title has produced and proven more than Fran has in his career.
Altman, Cronin, Musselman, and May all have at least one final four appearance. Altman has 4 pac12 regular season titles alone (that's 4 more power conference regular season titles than Fran...7 if you include the Creighton titles). Greg Gard has 2 big ten regular season titles and two sweet sixteen appearances (Fran has not done any of those things even once). Underwood has a big ten regular season title, 2 BTT titles and an elite 8 appearance all in the last 4 years.
But according to you, none of these coaches have "produced or proven more than Fran."🤣🤣🤣
Good Lord! Too ridiculous to even be a good troll.
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Yep, Fran teams almost always end up in the top half, one way or another. 17th? No buying that.
I point out that there are a lot of bad teams and coaches in the 18 team Big and your response is to rave about the best 5-6 coaches?
Nah...not letting you get away with that mealy mouth disingenuous nonsense. This is what you said in direct response (you quoted me) about my list of B1G coaches who are better than Fran:
"Btw, the only coaches in the Big right now that have made the NCAA finals are Izzo, who’s way past his prime, and Painter, who’s probably the best. The rest haven’t produced or proven more than Fran. A lot of mediocrity and unknowns."
"The rest" -- meaning B1G coaches who are not Painter or Izzo (the only 2 B1G coaches who have made the finals) -- "haven't produced or proven more than Fran."
That is your incredible statement. Own it.
"A lot of mediocrity and unknowns." LOL
So...I'm curious. Which B1G coaches are "mediocre"?
Which are "unknown"? This should be good. I want to hear how Dana Altman might suddenly become a bad coach once he starts coaching against a lot of mediocrities in the B1G. I mean....we just don't know... lol Mick Cronin might forget how to coach now that he has to travel to Madison. Hahaha
Where does Fran rate in your mind? Do you actually believe he is just as good or better than any coach not named Izzo or Painter?
No one will admit where Fran falls in the pecking order because that means admitting that our program is an also ran afterthought of a basketball program.
So ....it's...hey! I think I just saw Caitlin Clark!!! Let's talk about how terrible Angel Reece is for the 400th time. 😂😂
The relevant portion of my actual original post before you went off on your tangential rants.
I like Iowa to finish much higher than 17. I’m a big Josh Dix fan. Really good. Sandfort is always a threat to go off. There will be a lot of good centers in the league. Freeman is good, but he will be challenged. Harding is fun to watch. I think Iowa still needs to add a good piece. But 17th is a ridiculous prediction.
I don't consider any of those coaches "bad" other than probably Mike Woodson.
There's no touching those first 5 coaches. I don't think anyone would argue that.
I mostly agree with the order you have the coaches in. I'd probably slot Fran somewhere in the area around Collins and Gard. I'd raise Steve Pickiell up there too. Fran, Collins, Gard, Pickiell, Hoiberg all feel to be on the same platform.
Dusty May is a tough one for me. Nothing can take away a Final Four run (other than sanctions I suppose) but it's a limited sample size at one mid-major program. Whereas a coach like Pikiell or Fran, who doesn't have the singular mountain top like a Dusty May has, have found moderate sustained success and longevity at multiple programs. Will Dusty May have multiple big runs at Michigan? Who knows. Will he ebb and flow like Pickiell and Fran have at Rutgers and Iowa? Also who knows, but if I had to guess he won't be given a 10+ year leash like those 2 have been given to have that chance. It's very doubtful he'll crash and burn like Juwan Howard.
Does that make May a better coach than Fran or Pickiell or Hoiberg or Underwood? Not necessarily in my estimation. Would I like Dusty May at Iowa? Yeah. Would he do a better job than Fran? I'll wait and see what he does his first year at Michigan. Same goes for Danny Sprinkle. In fact I'd take Sprinkle over May in a heartbeat. I watched a lot of Utah State games last season and really enjoyed them. Washington probably isn't the spot for him though. Their athletics department is a mess right now.
I think it's safe to say Mike Rhoades will never find success at Penn State based solely on the fact it's Penn State basketball. Good run at VCU though. Same boat as Kevin Willard.
That leaves Johnson and Woodson at the bottom. Again, just zero faith in Woodson. Indiana is an impossible place to coach anyway.
Diebler is a wild card.
So I guess all said and done Fran is probably smack dab in the middle.
A very bad take. Just goes to show you can't judge on that criteria.
Agree to disagree.
Who knows what happens if he didn't smack the Wisconsin coach, threaten to kill Turgeon, threaten his S&C coach, or have heart issues. You can't really gainsay his early success. Looked like he would run this league when he first arrived. Things can change fast though.
Interesting back and forth.
The middle position on Fran as a coach wins out.
He's not the worst, certainly not the best.
I do think for a coach with an average conference record over 14 years (yes, all 14 count), he's lasted a long time at one spot considering the absence of doing anything of significance on the positive side in the NCAA tourney over that period. Plug that record into a blinded resume and my guess is most people who follow this stuff more than casually would be surprised that a coach would be able to stick around that long in a power conference spot with that level of team performance.
The middle position on Fran as a coach wins out.
He's not the worst, certainly not the best.
I do think for a coach with an average conference record over 14 years (yes, all 14 count), he's lasted a long time at one spot considering the absence of doing anything of significance on the positive side in the NCAA tourney over that period. Plug that record into a blinded resume and my guess is most people who follow this stuff more than casually would be surprised that a coach would be able to stick around that long in a power conference spot with that level of team performance.
I might agree with replacing what Perkins brought the team remains to be seen, but that was very erratic. Replacing Krikke and Patrick is definitely going to be a positive, especially on the defensive end and on the boards.
I would give Fran a more than respectable 6 or 7 out of 10 on regular season performance (you have to ignore the first year after the prior disaster), but Fran is a pathetic 1 out of 10 in the dance. Except for one year, Iowa has also been a failure in the BTT.
That’s about right. Our roster is very pedestrian compared to most of the league. No dance and 15 losses. The Panera Express continues rolling down the track!
I agree with that. Fran has been consistent his entire career during the regular season. The majority of his teams have been good enough to make it to March. That's a pretty good coach in my eyes and more than many coaches can claim.
There's no arguing his record in the tournament though. Personally I always thought 2020 getting cancelled was such bad luck for him and Iowa. They were an overtime away from the Sweet 16 in 2019 and then that momentum was killed due to covid. 2020 was a really good team, who's to say what kind of run they could have made. Fran and Iowa's trajectory could have been much different post-covid but it's all fantasy and conjecture.
