Iowa not shooting?

[Azchief32]

So all of the hullabaloo on Askren's rant got me thinking about the state of wrestling. He pointed the finger at Iowa so I thought I would look at some of the recent non-Iowa greats and how much they attempted when wrestling someone of the same skill level. I looked at the three matches in the 2012-13 matches between Taylor and Dake. Both are in the all time discussion with Dake winning four in a row. While they were dominant against opponents, here is a short summary of how they did against each other:

2012 NCWA All Star match:

No shots by either in the first period. Taylor looked a lot like an Iowa guy, cutting off space and forcing Dake to the edge of the mat. No stalling called on Dake even though he spent a lot of time actually wrestling out of bounds. Dake was finally called for stalling in the third with about 15 seconds left. Taylor ended up with two shots on Dake but it was won in OT 2-1 in rideouts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T-6l9dXwXw

2013 Southern Scuffle:

No Takedowns. Final score was 3-2 with Dake getting a reversal that made the difference.

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/250076-Southern-Scuffle/video/676197-165-1st-Place-Match-Kyle-Dake-Cornell-vs-David-Taylor-Penn-State#.VPZtekK--SM

2013 NCAA Final:

Taylor gets a quick TD, Dake escapes and takes Taylor down. No more TD's the rest of the match. Dake wins 5-4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNihUnLjut0

Takedown totals over the three matches:

Taylor:2
Dake: 1

Kyle Dake and David Taylor are two of the greater wrestlers of their generation yet out of three matches, they only generated three total takedowns with not a lot of shooting or aggressive wrestling. While riding, neither looked to turn but to just get the riding time point. Taylor is known as an offensive dynamo but against competition on his level, he didn't shoot a whole heck of a lot. This is not to put down either guy...they are both great. It just goes to show that refs will not call stalling at the college level...especially in these big matches. Because of that, wrestlers, even two greats like these, will not take chances. This is the state of wrestling, Iowa or otherwise.

 

[Hawkirish]

Azchief don't let facts ruin Asskren's brilliant observation and Flo's endorsement. I understand everyone hates the hawks but it's sad that some feel this is groundbreaking - it's not. It's the state of NCAA wrestling when top ranked guys wrestle.

Not happy with it and I'd like to see the fur fly but still heading to Ohio tomorrow to support the hawks. I'm bringing one cigar for Saturday night as I like the Hawks chances. I'll save the good one for St. Louey.

 

[255]

Awesome point Chief. When you consider the schedule Iowa wrestles most of the year, it makes sense.

 

[86_90]

This has been a theme I've noted in the past--cautious wrestling in tight matches.

In the past a loss would be something that would inspire renewed aggression and guys would look for payback. Now, what I've seen is a loss leads to a more cautious approach.

When did this become part of the Iowa Style? The freak loss by Metcalf in the NCAA finals is where it appeared to change as far as Brands and Company leading the charge. No way Metcalf losses to that kid if he wrestlers cautiously and waits to wear him down in the 3rd. 10 out of 10 times Metcalf beats Caldwell in that sort of match. Metcalf, during his senior year, against Palmer, is what the program has at times appeared to morph into.

The problem is the coaching staff? or the wrestlers they've recruited seemed to have taken this cautious approach to the entire team. Just my opinion, but that fluke loss changed the mindset of Brands and Company when facing top competition. Unfortunately, most wrestlers since the Metcalf era are not as gifted as Metcalf.

I'm 100% certain Brands and Company preach an attacking/scoring style, but for whatever reason the entire team is now overly cautious in tight matches. I can even buy this more cautious approach, at times, in the biggest tournaments, but in duals? This is where the team needs to let it all bust loose.

The NWCA Duals was a warm-up for Big10s and NCAAs, but many on the team wrestled like it was Saturday night and they were Metcalf, waiting for the 3rd period. It wasn't and they aren't.

 

[Huck]

Good research Chief and I think most of us probably aren't real surprised by what you found. Most of us have seen this for quite a few years now. Two quality kids square off and both seem too concerned about making a mistake and the aggressive, attacking seems to take a back seat to holding position and looking for the perfect shot. Just imagine if officials would call a few early stall calls and make the guys wrestle.
I think Askren had some points but really he was talking about the sport as a whole. Iowa just got pointed out because of their history of being the best and the "most aggressive". Add in the fact that we don't take losing lightly and some rabid fans want to scream from the top of our lungs that someone else was stalling and we make for a very easy target.

Lets face it, you think Gable or Tom/Terry care if Mizzou or anyone else in stalling? Their mindset (I hope) would be that it doesn't matter, our guys have to SCORE no matter what the other guy is doing. Sure they may have called for a stall but that's just part of coaching, in the end...i'm guessing they believe it doesn't matter, no excuses, score and keep scoring.

 

[86_90]

Originally posted by Huck:
Good research Chief and I think most of us probably aren't real surprised by what you found. Most of us have seen this for quite a few years now. Two quality kids square off and both seem too concerned about making a mistake and the aggressive, attacking seems to take a back seat to holding position and looking for the perfect shot. Just imagine if officials would call a few early stall calls and make the guys wrestle.
I think Askren had some points but really he was talking about the sport as a whole. Iowa just got pointed out because of their history of being the best and the "most aggressive". Add in the fact that we don't take losing lightly and some rabid fans want to scream from the top of our lungs that someone else was stalling and we make for a very easy target.

Lets face it, you think Gable or Tom/Terry care if Mizzou or anyone else in stalling? Their mindset (I hope) would be that it doesn't matter, our guys have to SCORE no matter what the other guy is doing. Sure they may have called for a stall but that's just part of coaching, in the end...i'm guessing they believe it doesn't matter, no excuses, score and keep scoring.

Got to believe the pressure is really on Brands and Company to score a team title. Lack of shooting, having to face unmitigated stalling, injuries or not, and a question of compromised aggressiveness, they still need to get it done.

 

[Stanley75]

The way I see it there is no lack of attacking on weaker opponents. Lot of take downs and lots of action. The bigest problem I see is when two opponents of comparable skill & strength that is when lack of scoring is evident. Maybe we need to get rid of ear to ear feet wrestling. That is where the problem is. Hard to get off shots when the wrestlers are locked up ear to ear. Guys grasping hands leads to not much action. If your grabbing a guy by the head you're a long way from grabbing his legs for points. People need to see action or the sport will die.

 

[sloehawk]

Originally posted by Huck:
Good research Chief and I think most of us probably aren't real surprised by what you found. Most of us have seen this for quite a few years now. Two quality kids square off and both seem too concerned about making a mistake and the aggressive, attacking seems to take a back seat to holding position and looking for the perfect shot. Just imagine if officials would call a few early stall calls and make the guys wrestle.
I think Askren had some points but really he was talking about the sport as a whole. Iowa just got pointed out because of their history of being the best and the "most aggressive". Add in the fact that we don't take losing lightly and some rabid fans want to scream from the top of our lungs that someone else was stalling and we make for a very easy target.

Lets face it, you think Gable or Tom/Terry care if Mizzou or anyone else in stalling? Their mindset (I hope) would be that it doesn't matter, our guys have to SCORE no matter what the other guy is doing. Sure they may have called for a stall but that's just part of coaching, in the end...i'm guessing they believe it doesn't matter, no excuses, score and keep scoring.

I think you also have to consider the way stalling, or essentially lack-of, hinders the thought process as well. You wrestle cautious, you get taken down, then you MAY spend the rest of the match stalking, but not getting where you need to be to score. Guy's backing out or playing the edge, all your shots end up out of bounds, etc., and you may or may not get a stall call. You may not even truly warrant one, without constant attacks, some of which may be ill-advised and put you further in the hole, then repeat.

I guess what it amounts to, is in the current state of the sport, it's harder to come back from a deficit than it probably was at one time, because you're not going to be "made" to wrestle. I don't think that should stop one from trying anyway, just trying to figure out why the lack of activity so often, relative to years past (I don't buy the "parity" thing, some of Iowa's greats tore up other great wrestlers from time to time, as well as the "average" guys).

It's not the end of the world as we know it, but it's troubling all the same. And that most certainly includes anyone wearing Black and Gold.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

Good post AZ,

I dotn think its an Iowa thing anymore. I think there is just so much video on an opponent, so much hype or build up and just too much pressure to lose to wrestle like this anymore. The finals arent even the best wrestling at NCAA. Id argue Sat morning placing is where they wrestle the best because they arent afraid to lose as they already have.

Just look at the McD-Long freshman battles. First time they saw each other in Cedar Falls was an awesome match to watch. Somthing like 13-12? Then in Omaha for the finals is like 3-1?

How does that even happen?

Is it too much respect? Too much reading about themselves in rankings and on Flo?

IMO we see it with Sorny and Brooks. Dudes can get multiple takedowns but when they know the other guy is highly ranked it like the score then automaticall has to be 3-2 and go to OT. Its like they do it to themsleves?

Who do we think are two exciting guys to watch? Imart & ness. Put them in my garage right now and I bet its an awesoem 15-14 match. Put them in the finals and wake me up 3-2 score.
This post was edited on 3/4 7:36 AM by Ihawkd9times

 

[SetonHallPirate]

Originally posted by Ihawkd9times:

Good post AZ,

I dotn think its an Iowa thing anymore. I think there is just so much video on an opponent, so much hype or build up and just too much pressure to lose to wrestle like this anymore. The finals arent even the best wrestling at NCAA. Id argue Sat morning placing is where they wrestle the best because they arent afraid to lose as they already have.

Just look at the McD-Long freshman battles. First time they saw each other in Cedar Falls was an awesome match to watch. Somthing like 13-12? Then in Omaha for the finals is like 3-1?

How does that even happen?

Is it too much respect? Too much reading about themselves in rankings and on Flo?

IMO we see it with Sorny and Brooks. Dudes can get multiple takedowns but when they know the other guy is highly ranked it like the score then automaticall has to be 3-2 and go to OT. Its like they do it to themsleves?

Who do we think are two exciting guys to watch? Imart & ness. Put them in my garage right now and I bet its an awesoem 15-14 match. Put them in the finals and wake me up 3-2 score.

This post was edited on 3/4 7:36 AM by Ihawkd9times

They wrestled four times that year...once in Ames in the dual, once in the Midlands final, once in Cedar Falls (National Duals final), and on the big stage at NCAA's.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

Originally posted by SetonHallPirate:

Originally posted by Ihawkd9times:

Good post AZ,

I dotn think its an Iowa thing anymore. I think there is just so much video on an opponent, so much hype or build up and just too much pressure to lose to wrestle like this anymore. The finals arent even the best wrestling at NCAA. Id argue Sat morning placing is where they wrestle the best because they arent afraid to lose as they already have.

Just look at the McD-Long freshman battles. First time they saw each other in Cedar Falls was an awesome match to watch. Somthing like 13-12? Then in Omaha for the finals is like 3-1?

How does that even happen?

Is it too much respect? Too much reading about themselves in rankings and on Flo?

IMO we see it with Sorny and Brooks. Dudes can get multiple takedowns but when they know the other guy is highly ranked it like the score then automaticall has to be 3-2 and go to OT. Its like they do it to themsleves?

Who do we think are two exciting guys to watch? Imart & ness. Put them in my garage right now and I bet its an awesoem 15-14 match. Put them in the finals and wake me up 3-2 score.


This post was edited on 3/4 7:36 AM by Ihawkd9times

They wrestled four times that year...once in Ames in the dual, once in the Midlands final, once in Cedar Falls (National Duals final), and on the big stage at NCAA's.

Thanks. My point still being how do you go from that to that? Can you post the 4 scores of those matches? IMO.. The NCAA finals is actually working against growing the sport. Between Refs swallowing whistles, esp in the finals or end of the 3rd period to these kids putting up mental blocks of being afraid to shoot and get countered. Not sure what an answer is? Hate to mention our own but Ramos had no intentionof having any offense down in OKC. He was going to stay on his feet until the other guy made a mistake. It worked but that sure wasnt the Ramos we know.

 

[TheFinalGun]

Dual McD dec Long 13-7
@ Midlands McD dec Long 9-7 SV
Nat. Duals McD dec Long 9-8
NCAA McD dec Long 3-1

 

[Kwoodhawk]

Originally posted by Ihawkd9times:



Who do we think are two exciting guys to watch? Imart & ness. Put them in my garage right now and I bet its an awesoem 15-14 match. Put them in the finals and wake me up 3-2 score.

This post was edited on 3/4 7:36 AM by Ihawkd9times

Put them in your garage right now and it's pipe wrenches and screwdrivers.......

 

[redghost1974]

If you leave the first period 0-0 that changes the dynamic of the match. That is the biggest problem from a philosophy standpoint. You get at least 1 takedown maybe 2 in the first period, that sets up breaking the match wide open. Hanging ear to ear and not creating angles leads to 2-1 or OT matches. The problem is most the wrestlers are going with the Mayweather approach, be great defensively and not risk the knockout.

 

[texas twister]

I have been mulling over the last couple days about the pathetic 1st period in so many matches. Give me feed back:

End of first period if no score - both wrestlers get a stall call and the more aggressive wrestler gets 1 point.

 

[Azchief32]

In the first match posted above, nobody shot...no stalling call. The announcer was lauding the ref for staying out of the match. Should have been stalling on both guys.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

Originally posted by texas twister:
I have been mulling over the last couple days about the pathetic 1st period in so many matches. Give me feed back:

End of first period if no score - both wrestlers get a stall call and the more aggressive wrestler gets 1 point.

I totally agree with that. Someone will say its opening a can of worms on who the ref chooses but so be it. Dont leave it up to the ref. Double stalling needs called way more often. I just dont get why it isnt?

I am also in favor of eliminating ride time to get more action. And if they you dont want to do that then make a TD worth 3 points. Lets reward TD's becuase right now It almost feels like whats the point of a TD if when he escapes he gets on back. All it does now is promote waiting until the last 15 sec of a period to go for 2 so you dont have to give up the 1.

 

[Jar-hawk]

There was a time when a stall call was mandatory when there was no scoring in the first period. I can't remember if the double stall was required. I think it was a result of Gable raising hell with the rules committe.

 

[Kwoodhawk]

Really getting.....

Sound like a bunch of Politicians talking about the National Debt and then doing nothing about it other than raising their own salaries.

It is what it is.

Live with it or do something about it.

 

[minnhawkeye]

I really wish after 2 mins of wrestling in first period warn both wrestlers of stalling unless one of them is trying to r do some actual shoting then warn the other w estler..Get early stall warnings should at least make the wrestlers aware that they better get a going..Of course if the reffs don't follow up the warnings and let it go back to like now no mission is accomplished.
For the life of me I just can't understand why these officals are so dam scared to call it like it is.

 

[86_90]

Originally posted by Kwoodhawk:

Really getting.....

Sound like a bunch of Politicians talking about the National Debt and then doing nothing about it other than raising their own salaries.

It is what it is.

Live with it or do something about it.

If you have the largest fanbase consistently complaining about it on the largest team forum, then that is in fact doing something about it. Contrary to what some believe, these sites and this one in particular are read from time to time by people who in fact can "... do something about it."

 

[iahawk08]

Originally posted by minnhawkeye:

I really wish after 2 mins of wrestling in first period warn both wrestlers of stalling unless one of them is trying to r do some actual shoting then warn the other w estler..Get early stall warnings should at least make the wrestlers aware that they better get a going..Of course if the reffs don't follow up the warnings and let it go back to like now no mission is accomplished.
For the life of me I just can't understand why these officals are so dam scared to call it like it is.

That is the biggest issue that would come up with a mandatory double stall, both guys get warned after a scoreless first and then the ref wouldn't call another one, I like the idea but I don't think it would work like we want it to.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[86_90]

Originally posted by iahawk08:

Originally posted by minnhawkeye:

I really wish after 2 mins of wrestling in first period warn both wrestlers of stalling unless one of them is trying to r do some actual shoting then warn the other w estler..Get early stall warnings should at least make the wrestlers aware that they better get a going..Of course if the reffs don't follow up the warnings and let it go back to like now no mission is accomplished.
For the life of me I just can't understand why these officals are so dam scared to call it like it is.

That is the biggest issue that would come up with a mandatory double stall, both guys get warned after a scoreless first and then the ref wouldn't call another one, I like the idea but I don't think it would work like we want it to.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

You are right. The biggest issue is that the refs are unwilling to call stalling. I personally believe some won't call it because they get too much grief from some benches. This could be fixed by issuing a 1 point team penalty for benches questioning stall calls that are issued, have the invisible man (the second official, who I believe gets paid) monitor the benches and issue these penalties if necessary.

It's a lot easier to swallow the whistle and stay out of it and pretend it doesn't affect match outcomes, so I guess fans are left with a worsening product. Is this what the coaches, fans and ADs want?

And damn those that dare say it's a major problem. The product is apparently fine as long as the NCAA Tourny is well attended--or so the argument goes.

Someone made a great point the other day, I believe on this site, where they believed that televising on ESPN the NCAA Finals was perhaps bad for the sport, as it showcases the ultra defensive nature of the sport. Instead of the best showcase of talent, we get strategic stall rides, 0-0 1st periods, constant push outs or maybe we are lucky to see a mismatch where we see a few take-downs. If we look at the Saturday Night matches @NCAAs as a single event and not the culmination of a season, it's hard to see much entertainment value for a casual fan.

So either we end the charade of "growing the sport," or fix the product by aggressively mandating offensive action, and make it easier for the officials to call the stalling everyone sees, but apparently are unwilling to call.