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Is Fascism just a liberal insult, just hype?

May 17, 2021
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Let’s ask Mussolini.

Fascism should rightly be called corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power.”

“Democracy is beautiful in theory; in practice it is a fallacy. You in America will see that some day.”
 
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Like Putin, liberals use fascism as a Red herring aimed at their enemies to distract from their own fascist ambitions.

So to answer the question, it's neither an insult nor pure hype.

It wont succeed, so it's closer to hype than insult.

It's not all liberals either, only the furthest left.
You say liberals have “fascist ambitions.” Name two.

Here are Republican fascist ideals actively on display in our government:

  • A marriage of Christianity and government
  • Stripping women of their bodily autonomy
  • Giving police carte blanche to use lethal force whenever they see fit
  • Letting banks and energy companies write laws
  • Anti-teacher and education
  • Support for or outright membership in violent armed gangs like the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Patriot Prayer, etc.
  • Anti-worker unions
  • Support for blustery strongman types like Trump, Duterte, Putin, and Orbán
  • Cracking down on gays, blacks, immigrants through efforts to ban gay marriage, close polling places, and travel bans, respectively
  • Republican pols increasingly proudly labeling themselves “Christian Nationalists”
 
You say liberals have “fascist ambitions.” Name two.

Here are Republican fascist ideals actively on display in our government:

  • A marriage of Christianity and government
  • Stripping women of their bodily autonomy
  • Giving police carte blanche to use lethal force whenever they see fit
  • Letting banks and energy companies write laws
  • Anti-teacher and education
  • Support for or outright membership in violent armed gangs like the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Patriot Prayer, etc.
  • Anti-worker unions
  • Support for blustery strongman types like Trump, Duterte, Putin, and Orbán
  • Cracking down on gays, blacks, immigrants through efforts to ban gay marriage, close polling places, and travel bans, respectively
  • Republican pols increasingly proudly labeling themselves “Christian Nationalist
This. But I’m sure what we’re seeing with our own eyes we really aren’t seeing. I’m just exaggerating according to the board righties. You did a nice job here. This is all from the fascist playbook.
 
This. But I’m sure what we’re seeing with our own eyes we really aren’t seeing. I’m just exaggerating according to the board righties. You did a nice job here. This is all from the fascist playbook.
I mean we’ve got Republicans chanting to lock up their political opponents, members of congress saying that they want a Christian theocracy, talking about shooting AOC and Pelosi, having CPAC in Hungary which is a fascist dictatorship, spending the 4th of July in Moscow with Putin. I’m not reaching!

Of course thewop will come back with some flimsy BS like, “they’re cancelling us and making us use pronouns! They’re the real fascists!”
 
I mean we’ve got Republicans chanting to lock up their political opponents, members of congress saying that they want a Christian theocracy, talking about shooting AOC and Pelosi, having CPAC in Hungary which is a fascist dictatorship, spending the 4th of July in Moscow with Putin. I’m not reaching!

Of course thewop will come back with some flimsy BS like, “they’re cancelling us and making us use pronouns! They’re the real fascists!”
It’s what makes me so nutso at times on here…this stuff is beyond obvious. Every single day I see something Marjorie Taylor Greene says that’s repulsive. Everything you posted, things she says, Matt Gaetz talking about women too ugly to screw and these guys and goldmom are like, “Meh.”

It’s like they want fascism. They’re good with it.
 
You say liberals have “fascist ambitions.” Name two.

Here are Republican fascist ideals actively on display in our government:

  • A marriage of Christianity and government
  • Stripping women of their bodily autonomy
  • Giving police carte blanche to use lethal force whenever they see fit
  • Letting banks and energy companies write laws
  • Anti-teacher and education
  • Support for or outright membership in violent armed gangs like the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Patriot Prayer, etc.
  • Anti-worker unions
  • Support for blustery strongman types like Trump, Duterte, Putin, and Orbán
  • Cracking down on gays, blacks, immigrants through efforts to ban gay marriage, close polling places, and travel bans, respectively
  • Republican pols increasingly proudly labeling themselves “Christian Nationalists”
Why only two?
* Support of censorship of thought and speech
* Infatuation with race and identity
* Marriage of Political Ideology and the Media
* Cancel Culture and the putting down of any dissent
* Marriage of Political Ideology and Academia
* Focusing on the wants and needs of the liberal elitists
* Wealth confiscation
 
This "crony capitalism" thing has been bugging me. Is there a non textbook real world example where a capitalism exists that isn't some type of crony capitalism? An-cap will almost certainly lead to mobbed up protection rackets which are just a ruthless lawless form of government.
Level of. Level of X.

Crony capitalism or anything else in this thread.... almost all the arguments in here suck because they're not taking into account level of... just qualifiers.

Come up with a low threshold definition of fascism, find a bunch of a qualitatively supported examples for object of derision, yell fascism.

Flick, OP... all the same problem.
 
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Level of. Level of X.

Crony capitalism or anything else in this thread.... almost all the arguments in here suck because they're not taking into account level of... just qualifiers.

Come up with a low threshold definition of fascism, find a bunch of a qualitatively supported examples for object of derision, yell fascism.

Flick, OP... all the same problem.

This is very fascism. Very fascism, indeed.
 
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Why only two?
* Support of censorship of thought and speech
* Infatuation with race and identity
* Marriage of Political Ideology and the Media
* Cancel Culture and the putting down of any dissent
* Marriage of Political Ideology and Academia
* Focusing on the wants and needs of the liberal elitists
* Wealth confiscation
Tell me you don’t know what fascism is without saying it.
 
Level of. Level of X.

Crony capitalism or anything else in this thread.... almost all the arguments in here suck because they're not taking into account level of... just qualifiers.

Come up with a low threshold definition of fascism, find a bunch of a qualitatively supported examples for object of derision, yell fascism.

Flick, OP... all the same problem.
You want to address my points directly? Let’s do it. The President telling a group of thugs to “stand by” is pretty “level of,” no? Congressmen declaring they’re Christian Nationalists is directly out of the fascism playbook. You can’t debate that. That’s level of. (Whatever that means.) People in congress hobnobbing with Putin and Orban? Is that not level of? Trump urging his supporters to rough up the press and protesters and that he’ll pay their bail? That’s fascism. That’s Mussolini level shit. How fascist do you need things to be before you concede we’ve got a party actively embracing it?
 
You want to address my points directly? Let’s do it. The President telling a group of thugs to “stand by” is pretty “level of,” no? Congressmen declaring they’re Christian Nationalists is directly out of the fascism playbook. You can’t debate that. That’s level of. (Whatever that means.) People in congress hobnobbing with Putin and Orban? Is that not level of? Trump urging his supporters to rough up the press and protesters and that he’ll pay their bail? That’s fascism. That’s Mussolini level shit. How fascist do you need things to be before you concede we’ve got a party actively embracing it?

Level of = amount of. Amount of that within the party, within America, or whatever body we're speaking of. That's what's interesting.

If somebody came to you with a few examples of a democrat doing something fascistic you're going to say well, that doesn't make the party a fascist party. You're going to say that well, some of the attributes that comprise what is fascism are also attributes found in certain quantities amongst all people and political organization.

A few examples here or there that might qualitatively get you to the definition of fascism does not make a fascist party. (because level of fascism within said party isn't significant enough)

One of the problems I have with your rhetorical usage of the word -- you're not alone -- is that you don't do bother to delineate between the sort of fascism you're speaking, and what went on in Hitler's Europe. That is, for most people, the definition of fascism, effectively.

But the problem is that if Hitler's fascism was 950/1000, the republican party's fascism 10/1000. The level of fascism is so remarkably different that you wonder whether or not it even makes sense to invoke the argument. Hitler had a whole political enterprise based upon it; Trump had no discernable political ideology but for raging narcissism and some authoritarian tendencies.

Beyond that, in most of your examples, it not clear that you wouldn't just be talking about authoritarianism. (not that it matters too much?)

From wikipedia:
Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have long debated the exact nature of fascism.[23][page needed] Historian Ian Kershaw once wrote that "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall."[24] Each different group described as fascist has at least some unique elements, and many definitions of fascism have been criticized as either too broad or too narrow.[25] According to many scholars, fascism—especially once in power—has historically attacked communism, conservatism, and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far right.[26] One common definition of the term, frequently cited by reliable sources as a standard definition, is that of historian Stanley G. Payne.[27]
 
Level of. Level of X.

Crony capitalism or anything else in this thread.... almost all the arguments in here suck because they're not taking into account level of... just qualifiers.

Come up with a low threshold definition of fascism, find a bunch of a qualitatively supported examples for object of derision, yell fascism.

Flick, OP... all the same problem.

Some people get carried away with the F word because fascists and nationalists look and sound similar. I don't know how to react when someone's position is that the privately owned oil companies based in America have in certain years produced more crude oil than Americans consume so therefore "we" (the Americans with no real say in what is done with the raw materials or subsequent processing) are actually energy independent (despite these energy companies depending very much on a global energy market to get the highest possible prices for their extractions). Seems like that "we" is a nationalistic point of pride instead of an emphasis on how our citizens all benefit (without kicking up to the deed holding rent seekers) from the abundant natural resources that were here before any thoughts of feudalism, fascism, capitalism or socialism. Maybe this guy who thinks we're energy independent is just an isolationist patriot, or maybe he thinks we are the master race.
 
This is the origin of most usages of the word on this forum and in this thread:

Fascist... the pejorative epithet. People start with the feeling and work backwards in justify their use of language. (which people do for all kinds of shit, not rare stuff, they also do it here)

 
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And then you have Stalin, the authoritarian monster -- political dissent got you the dead or a nice vacation to camp -- that apparently... isn't fascist? I guess?

He was on the left, so he can't be fascist? Or how does that work exactly?

Left or right, Hitler or Stalin, most of the authoritarian horror realized was of the same quality. (even if arrived upon through different political ideology)

But I guess Stalin wasn't a crony capitalist... so there's that. (I may have killed millions, but I was no capitalist!)
 
Like Putin, liberals use fascism as a Red herring aimed at their enemies to distract from their own fascist ambitions.

So to answer the question, it's neither an insult nor pure hype.

It wont succeed, so it's closer to hype than insult.

It's not all liberals either, only the furthest left.
 
Definitions tossed around here are more focused on the unique brew of what was going on in Italy & Germany back in the 30s. (still fuzzy though)
 
And then you have Stalin, the authoritarian monster -- political dissent got you the dead or a nice vacation to camp -- that apparently... isn't fascist? I guess?

He was on the left, so he can't be fascist? Or how does that work exactly?

Left or right, Hitler or Stalin, most of the authoritarian horror realized was of the same quality. (even if arrived upon through different political ideology)

But I guess Stalin wasn't a crony capitalist... so there's that. (I may have killed millions, but I was no capitalist!)

Commies will kill their own for allegedly betraying the revolution and will of course kill others they are at war with (also sometimes they cause deadly famines). Fascists will kill everyone who isn't part of the in group and/or who can't be heinously exploited to benefit the in group. Capitalists will employ cigarette ad veterans to come up with plausibly excusable justifications for deadly imperial adventures.

Thanks for joining my Ted Talk.
 
Definitions tossed around here are more focused on the unique brew of what was going on in Italy & Germany back in the 30s. (still fuzzy though)

And here we go:

The prevalence of the word "fascism" in common vernacular also causes definitional problems. In recent years, the term "is used more often as a political insult than as a historically-informed analytical term," according to The Lowy Institute(opens in new tab), an Australian think tank in Sydney.


"The use of "fascism" as a generic term for authoritarianism is a terrible problem. Fascism is one specific kind of authoritarianism," Stanley said. "Fascism is a very specific thing – it’s not a name for whenever an authority figure acts incorrectly."
 
Let’s just say the cries of fascism from the left and communist from the right are not your grandparents fascism or communism. They are uniquely an American type of each that we love to just yell at each other if you don’t agree with a point of view.

Our grandparents dropped fascism sometime between 1935-1945 for the most part and then the commies were basically all finished by the early 50s. So our grandparents' fascism and communism were honestly kinda weak sauce IMO. They both quit after a little public pressure (in the case of the fascists) or intense industry and fed gov pressure (in the case of the communists and socialists). Now those folks in Europe and Asia, they knew how to get all fashy or commie.
 
Our grandparents dropped fascism sometime between 1935-1945 for the most part and then the commies were basically all finished by the early 50s. So our grandparents' fascism and communism were honestly kinda weak sauce IMO. They both quit after a little public pressure (in the case of the fascists) or intense industry and fed gov pressure (in the case of the communists and socialists). Now those folks in Europe and Asia, they knew how to get all fashy or commie.
Which is what I’m getting at. They went to actually fight against both because it was actual fascism and communism. Now we just get on HORT and retweet tweets and call each other whatever ism fits the narrative.

Speaking of capitalism, do you think all these social media sites are profiting off this type of political extremism on the interwebz? You know for the clicks, sensationalism of the most minor stories, likes, etc….
 
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Which is what I’m getting at. They went to actually fight against both because it was actual fascism and communism. Now we just get on HORT and retweet tweets and call each other whatever ism fits the narrative.

Speaking of capitalism, do you think all these social media sites are profiting off this type of political extremism on the interwebz? You know for the clicks, sensationalism of the most minor stories, likes,

Yep social media sites are for sure profiting off of traffic generated by anything and everything controversial and yes I think that's ethically a bad thing regardless of whether or not it impacts our politics. But behaving unethically is legal in all kinds of situations.

I get and agree with your point from before the bit about social media, but I was actually more getting at how we had a fair number of American fascists and even more American socialists & communists prior to WWII (from before the war when those isms weren't strictly perjoratives). Even a few American antifascists who fought against Franco & co in the Spanish Civil War before WWII. None of these groups were organizing in massive numbers comparable to who you meant by our grandparents who ended up doing the actual fighting/total-war-at-home work, but these less orthodox American political groups were definitely organizing in more respectable numbers than what we've seen from all third party efforts before or since Ross Perot. But then fascism became unpopular during the war. And then the USSR became enemy #1 just about as soon as WWII concluded, which led to a purging of sorts of American communists and socialists (not a purging in the sense of a Nazi or Commie purging, but definitely an industry blacklisting and public humiliation). And then the American labor movement was divided and conquered by that evil snake from Genesis. We've done our best to divorce our economics and politics which might have been a good idea if we actually did reach the end of history in the 1990s but it seems to me anyway that they're forever codependent.
 
Both parties have become disrespectful of differences of opinion and don't seem to mind using the government to punish people or corporations for holding "wrong opinions".

However the GOP is the only one trying to flat out steal elections.
 
Level of = amount of. Amount of that within the party, within America, or whatever body we're speaking of. That's what's interesting.

If somebody came to you with a few examples of a democrat doing something fascistic you're going to say well, that doesn't make the party a fascist party. You're going to say that well, some of the attributes that comprise what is fascism are also attributes found in certain quantities amongst all people and political organization.

A few examples here or there that might qualitatively get you to the definition of fascism does not make a fascist party. (because level of fascism within said party isn't significant enough)

One of the problems I have with your rhetorical usage of the word -- you're not alone -- is that you don't do bother to delineate between the sort of fascism you're speaking, and what went on in Hitler's Europe. That is, for most people, the definition of fascism, effectively.

But the problem is that if Hitler's fascism was 950/1000, the republican party's fascism 10/1000. The level of fascism is so remarkably different that you wonder whether or not it even makes sense to invoke the argument. Hitler had a whole political enterprise based upon it; Trump had no discernable political ideology but for raging narcissism and some authoritarian tendencies.

Beyond that, in most of your examples, it not clear that you wouldn't just be talking about authoritarianism. (not that it matters too much?)

From wikipedia:
So you cherry pick one part of a Wikipedia page and basically throw up your hands and say that nobody knows what fascism is?

Since you obviously haven’t read about it Nor watch the 10 minute video, in 30 seconds you can skim through one of the worlds leading experts on fascism‘s summary of its 10 common components, and he’s drawing from the policies and practices of Nazi Germany and fascist Italy under Mussolini, to Chile under Pinochet, as well as to today’s Hungary and US history and trumpism/gop.

i triple dog dare you to swipe through this link.

do you have the integrity to do that and think and respond honestly?

 
So you cherry pick one part of a Wikipedia page and basically throw up your hands and say that nobody knows what fascism is?

Since you obviously haven’t read about it Nor watch the 10 minute video, in 30 seconds you can skim through one of the worlds leading experts on fascism‘s summary of its 10 common components, and he’s drawing from the policies and practices of Nazi Germany and fascist Italy under Mussolini, to Chile under Pinochet, as well as to today’s Hungary and US history and trumpism/gop.

i triple dog dare you to swipe through this link.

do you have the integrity to do that and think and respond honestly?

No. I was pointing out that it's messy, especially its colloquial usages. (what I've seen a million times over on message boards)

I mean... Orwell said as much:

I think his sentiments were basically what I was sensing.

I'll try to read the link later.

I haven't spent any great deal of time trying to nail down what I think the most useful definition might be. Maybe there is a definition that I would attach to and argue it to be clearly superior; however... I feel fairly confident in saying whatever that definition is, it certainly doesn't seem to be widely adopted.

My bigger point in the post you quoted was pretty much accepting the definitional argument being made, but saying that the degree of the problem would seem to be so vastly different that it calls into question whether or not it's even a valid usage of the word.
 
You say liberals have “fascist ambitions.” Name two.

Here are Republican fascist ideals actively on display in our government:

  • A marriage of Christianity and government
  • Stripping women of their bodily autonomy
  • Giving police carte blanche to use lethal force whenever they see fit
  • Letting banks and energy companies write laws
  • Anti-teacher and education
  • Support for or outright membership in violent armed gangs like the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Patriot Prayer, etc.
  • Anti-worker unions
  • Support for blustery strongman types like Trump, Duterte, Putin, and Orbán
  • Cracking down on gays, blacks, immigrants through efforts to ban gay marriage, close polling places, and travel bans, respectively
  • Republican pols increasingly proudly labeling themselves “Christian Nationalists”
Do you know that the SS, sorry, "ice" can now perform no knock searches within 100 miles of a border? Know who ok'd that one? Ever heard of the "ministry of truth" and actually wanting to control what is truth?


Those are alot of scary buzzwords you have there flick, ever paid attention to who is actually doing facist shit?
"Stripped wemon of body automony"...what a chud.
 
Do you know that the SS, sorry, "ice" can now perform no knock searches within 100 miles of a border? Know who ok'd that one?
First of all, no they can't. D'oh!

Second:

Outdated Legal Authority and Lack of Oversight

  • The regulations establishing the 100-mile border zone were adopted by the U.S. Department of Justice in 1953—without any public comments or debate. At the time, there were fewer than 1,100 Border Patrol agents nationwide; today, there are over 21,000.
  • The Border Patrol often ignores this regulation and, aside from limiting interior checkpoint locations to within the 100-mile zone, rejects any geographic limitation on agents' authority. At least two federal circuit courts condone Border Patrol operations outside the 100-mile zone, federal regulations and Supreme Court precedent notwithstanding.
  • Federal border agents are stopping, interrogating, and searching Americans on an everyday basis with absolutely no suspicion of wrongdoing, and often in ways that our Constitution does not permit.
  • For example, Border Patrol, according to news reports, operates approximately 170 interior checkpoints throughout the country (the actual number in operation at any given time is not publicly known). The Supreme Court has upheld the use of immigration checkpoints, but only insofar as the stops consist only of a brief and limited inquiry into residence status. Checkpoints cannot be primarily used for drug-search or general law enforcement efforts. In practice, however, Border Patrol agents often do not limit themselves to brief immigration inquiries and regularly conduct criminal investigations and illegal searches at checkpoints. The Border Patrol also frequently pulls over motorists in "roving patrol" stops, often without any suspicion that an immigration violation has occurred.
You tell me what point you hoped you were making here. Did you really want it to be Joe Biden who "ok'd that one?" Do you think today's Supreme Court has some liberal majority no one knows about? Yikes.


 
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First of all, no they can't. D'oh!

Second:

Outdated Legal Authority and Lack of Oversight

  • The regulations establishing the 100-mile border zone were adopted by the U.S. Department of Justice in 1953—without any public comments or debate. At the time, there were fewer than 1,100 Border Patrol agents nationwide; today, there are over 21,000.
  • The Border Patrol often ignores this regulation and, aside from limiting interior checkpoint locations to within the 100-mile zone, rejects any geographic limitation on agents' authority. At least two federal circuit courts condone Border Patrol operations outside the 100-mile zone, federal regulations and Supreme Court precedent notwithstanding.
  • Federal border agents are stopping, interrogating, and searching Americans on an everyday basis with absolutely no suspicion of wrongdoing, and often in ways that our Constitution does not permit.
  • For example, Border Patrol, according to news reports, operates approximately 170 interior checkpoints throughout the country (the actual number in operation at any given time is not publicly known). The Supreme Court has upheld the use of immigration checkpoints, but only insofar as the stops consist only of a brief and limited inquiry into residence status. Checkpoints cannot be primarily used for drug-search or general law enforcement efforts. In practice, however, Border Patrol agents often do not limit themselves to brief immigration inquiries and regularly conduct criminal investigations and illegal searches at checkpoints. The Border Patrol also frequently pulls over motorists in "roving patrol" stops, often without any suspicion that an immigration violation has occurred.
You tell me what point you hoped you were making here. Did you really want it to be Joe Biden who "ok'd that one?" Do you think today's Supreme Court has some liberal majority no one knows about? Yikes.


So they they ruled that people cannot pursue damages..... well done... we as citizens have zero recourse.



Now take a swing at the ministry or truth while you are at.
 
Ever heard of the "ministry of truth" and actually wanting to control what is truth?
Fact checking does not mean "controlling what is truth." And we could've used something like this leading up to Pizzagate, Alex Jones sicking his followers on the Sandy Hook parents, and when the Republicans decided to push the big lie that the election was stolen. Can a democracy be healthy when lies go unchecked?

Also, the Committee of Public Information (you know that's what it actually was called, right?) didn't come to pass, so... what are you bitching about again?
 
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