Is Iowa High School/Youth Wrestling Getting Worse?

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

It seems to me that Iowa is producing fewer D1 National Champs and All Americans than in prior decades/generations. It'd be really interesting if someone were to quantify it.

What're the thoughts on this? Obviously Iowa has a smaller population and does relatively well at the national level on a per capita basis, but seemingly not as well as we've done historically.

I know Iowa high schoolers have recently won Fargo and other national tournaments. Are these wrestlers just not producing at the D1 level or are the Eastern states not sending their best kids to Fargo?

Would be really interesting if someone were to quantify the success (e.g. # of D1 all Americans) produced by the state of Iowa over time. And that probably needs to be further broken down into average placement or something considering 8th place at the tournament is negligible points in comparison to 1st place.

Qualitatively I've heard people say that Iowa wrestling is getting better and more kids are going to youth training centers such as Sebolt and Big Game, but it just seems that most of these kids aren't making it at the D1 level (including 3-4x state champs).

At the high school state tournament this year, not a lot of kids stood out to me as potential D1 AA caliber. And it sounds like the best one might play football.

 

[dtripp26]

It's better recently than it had been, thanks to Sebolt and Big Game. Iowa performed very well nationally the last few years.

However, it hasn't translated to NCAA AAs. Ayala and BK could change that this year possibly.

But we need more stud Iowa kids.

 

[vhsalum]

It's getting better. As the club scene gets better, you'll have more elite kids. It's just going to take some time.

 

[vhsalum]

I'll give Iowa this - it's one of the few states that you can be non-heavyweight multisport athlete and win multiple state titles.

That's not a good recipe for making elite wrestlers, but it does preserve the joy of being a student athlete.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

Both of you have claimed it's getting better, but does the data support that? Sure at the high school level, maybe more success nationally, but I think the best way to quantify the quality of high school and youth wrestling in a given state is how those kids go on to perform at the D1 level in college. I don't have the data, but I'd imagine Iowa is worse recently than we've been historically at producing successful D1 wrestlers.

I've heard quite a few qualitative claims in the last handful of years that it's improving, but don't see data to support those claims.

Dreshaun Ross is the only one currently ranked somewhat highly nationally correct? Who has graduated in the last 5 years that has a chance at a national title? Maybe Keuter in a few years and Ayala has the potential. Blockhus is having a really good season this year, but I don't see him winning a title. Should AA. Tanner Sloan got 2nd last year and is having another nice season.

That's a pretty small group. I'm sure I'm missing others, but I just don't see how the current guys in the running now and in the next few years holds up to what Iowa has had historically.

 

[vhsalum]

Both of you have claimed it's getting better, but does the data support that? Sure at the high school level, maybe more success nationally, but I think the best way to quantify the quality of high school and youth wrestling in a given state is how those kids go on to perform at the D1 level in college. I don't have the data, but I'd imagine Iowa is worse recently than we've been historically at producing successful D1 wrestlers.

I've heard quite a few qualitative claims in the last handful of years that it's improving, but don't see data to support those claims.

Dreshaun Ross is the only one currently ranked somewhat highly nationally correct? Who has graduated in the last 5 years that has a chance at a national title? Maybe Keuter in a few years and Ayala has the potential. Blockhus is having a really good season this year, but I don't see him winning a title. Should AA. Tanner Sloan got 2nd last year and is having another nice season.

That's a pretty small group. I'm sure I'm missing others, but I just don't see how the current guys in the running now and in the next few years holds up to what Iowa has had historically.

Dude. It's getting better. Iowa fell off BIGLY. It's not just going to turn around in a 3-4 year window.

Are you going to see some mass increase in production outside of the elite kids? Probably not - Iowa just isn't constructed that way. To be a D1 AA basically requires you to be an elite high school kid. It's going to get rarer and rarer for the likes of a Drew Foster to AA, let alone win ships.

 

[SPOONER]

It seems to me that Iowa is producing fewer D1 National Champs and All Americans than in prior decades/generations. It'd be really interesting if someone were to quantify it.

What're the thoughts on this? Obviously Iowa has a smaller population and does relatively well at the national level on a per capita basis, but seemingly not as well as we've done historically.

I know Iowa high schoolers have recently won Fargo and other national tournaments. Are these wrestlers just not producing at the D1 level or are the Eastern states not sending their best kids to Fargo?

Would be really interesting if someone were to quantify the success (e.g. # of D1 all Americans) produced by the state of Iowa over time. And that probably needs to be further broken down into average placement or something considering 8th place at the tournament is negligible points in comparison to 1st place.

Qualitatively I've heard people say that Iowa wrestling is getting better and more kids are going to youth training centers such as Sebolt and Big Game, but it just seems that most of these kids aren't making it at the D1 level (including 3-4x state champs).

At the high school state tournament this year, not a lot of kids stood out to me as potential D1 AA caliber. And it sounds like the best one might play football.

The drop in quality over decades ago is fairly evident and there’s data out there to quantify. It’s been discussed ad nauseum here.

Seems there has been incremental improvement in recent years but nothing major. It seems every few years people on this board get really excited about a crop of freshman but the high level HS results never materialize as they get older and in turn neither do the college results.

There was a lot of DNA spilled here over the current young Iowa HS crop but after a sputter out at the state tourney it looks like more of the same to me, except for Ross. I guess we will see.

 

[Redm18]

I don't think that Iowa wrestling really got worse. I think wrestling in other states got more popular and better. Iowa wrestling is getting better though but demographics are never likely to make it dominate like it was in the 70s 80s and 90s. PA and the states that touch it have twice to population of Iowa and the states that touch it.

 

[Saysomethingstupid]

Wrestling is getting more exposure nationally and more kids are participating in other states. Wisconsin has seen an increase in participation plus having AWA amongst many other clubs helps a ton. Its competition. It makes everyone better. Iowa produces great wrestlers now everyone else produces more too.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

Dude. It's getting better.

Is it? I don't see it. Need data to support that claim. That's my point I guess. I'm hearing/reading these qualitative claims routinely the past few years but I'm just not seeing that play out when looking at D1 results.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

Wrestling is getting more exposure nationally and more kids are participating in other states. Wisconsin has seen an increase in participation plus having AWA amongst many other clubs helps a ton. Its competition. It makes everyone better. Iowa produces great wrestlers now everyone else produces more too.

So another way to put it is that Iowa is worse than we've been historically in relation to the caliber of wrestlers nationally right? Iowa wrestling may be improving, but still falling behind since other states are improving more.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

I don't think that Iowa wrestling really got worse. I think wrestling in other states got more popular and better. Iowa wrestling is getting better though but demographics are never likely to make it dominate like it was in the 70s 80s and 90s. PA and the states that touch it have twice to population of Iowa and the states that touch it.

Read my post directly above. By definition that would mean that Iowa is getting relatively worse.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

The drop in quality over decades ago is fairly evident and there’s data out there to quantify. It’s been discussed ad nauseum here.

I feel that while it may have been discussed ad nauseum, so have the claims that Iowa high school/youth wrestling is improving.

Any idea where to look for the summarized data?

 

[tiltman]

Any idea where to look for the summarized data?

Yes, you look at NCAA All Americans; figure out how many are from Iowa then compare that to how many there was in the past.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

Yes, you look at NCAA All Americans; figure out how many are from Iowa then compare that to how many there was in the past.

Yeah. I assume that's been done already and am hoping for a link. Would be really interesting to go back 50-70 years. If the raw data was easily accessible I'd gladly do it. I just don't know how to get 70 years worth of data for that without spending many hours digging up random sources. I'd assume the Flo guys or Willie have it in a database.

@smalls103

@ChristianPyles

 

[SPOONER]

Yes, you look at NCAA All Americans; figure out how many are from Iowa then compare that to how many there was in the past.

I think I love you.

I feel that while it may have been discussed ad nauseum, so have the claims that Iowa high school/youth wrestling is improving.

Any idea where to look for the summarized data?

Have you considered Google?

 

[Pennstate1985]

Have you considered Google?

Some parts of Google have George Washington as black, so there is that. J/K

 

[LIV4GOD]

I think I love you.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

I think I love you.



Have you considered Google?

No shit. There isn't (to my knowledge) a source with raw or summarized data of # of D1 all Americans by placement and by state of origin going back 50-70 years.

I'd assume the companies who report on wrestling and wrestling stats for a living may have either done the analysis already or have the raw data stored in a database and therefore be capable of relatively efficiently doing the analysis.

If I'm wrong, and the raw data is sitting at the top of a Google search please feel free to prove me wrong and share the link.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

Iowa high school wrestling is not getting worse.

Add this to the list of people who've made this qualitative claim. I think the data would prove that Iowa high school wrestling is getting relatively worse (in comparison to other states over time).

 

[OldestandGreatest]

Add this to the list of people who've made this qualitative claim. I think the data would prove that Iowa high school wrestling is getting relatively worse (in comparison to other states over time).

Quantitatively yes you are right. I am arguing though that maybe Gable skewed the numbers if you are using college results to determine which state has the best high school wrestling. This seems to be the measure everyone uses.

 

[bourbon n blues]

I don't think that Iowa wrestling really got worse. I think wrestling in other states got more popular and better. Iowa wrestling is getting better though but demographics are never likely to make it dominate like it was in the 70s 80s and 90s. PA and the states that touch it have twice to population of Iowa and the states that touch it.

More like this I believe. a few months ago I was telling fellow PSU football fans that in 1968 Pa. had 29 electoral votes, now they have 19. The bodies aren't there for football but the population still can pump out wrestlers. Many talented wrestlers aren't big enough to play football or basketball so it gives those kids a great competitive outlet.

Iowa had 9 electoral votes in 1968, now it has 6. Pa. Obviously this is proportional throughout the country, but it hasn't helped Iowa. So with the expansion in wrestling in general, Iowa hasn't necessarily declined, everyone else got better.

 

[MVPFAN]

The clubs are creating a few higher end kids but if you watched many duals 20 or 30 years ago vs now the overall ability in talent and ability to fill weight classes has dropped a lot.

 

[bourbon n blues]

Add this to the list of people who've made this qualitative claim. I think the data would prove that Iowa high school wrestling is getting relatively worse (in comparison to other states over time).

Everyone caught up. I liken it to electoral politics. Pa. has proportionately lost population and isn't what it was in football. Michigan is the first team from the north to win the title since 9 years ago for OSU. OSU won the title 12 years prior to that. The 3 northern winners since 2000.

It's hard to beat demographics.

 

[Redm18]

The clubs are creating a few higher end kids but if you watched many duals 20 or 30 years ago vs now the overall ability in talent and ability to fill weight classes has dropped a lot.

I can see the ability to fill weight classes as easy to judge but how do you compare talent across generations like that? Just curious. I assume participation is down because there are more things for kids to do and kids are less likely to do many things. As an example I think a lot more high schools now have bowling and trap and archery and even things like robotics club and e sports compared to when I was in high school 20 or so years ago.

 

[Spoons]

Wrestling has changes so much over the last decade it’s crazy. Ask yourself this how many Iowa kids go to Fargo compared to other states, how many get to go to Super 32’s, how many get to go to Beast of the East. How many teams travel outside of the state for Bigger tournaments. Clubs like Big Game and Sebolt are helping but we are still behind New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Illinois and probably even California. Part of it is we really don’t have any that truly focus on just wrestling. Think about all the prep schools that focus on just wrestling and how many does Iowa have… just saying it is a lot more difficult now to be a multi sport athlete and translate to a D1 athlete. It sucks because most coaches want multi sport athletes.

 

[Redm18]

Everyone caught up. I liken it to electoral politics. Pa. has proportionately lost population and isn't what it was in football. Michigan is the first team from the north to win the title since 9 years ago for OSU. OSU won the title 12 years prior to that. The 3 northern winners since 2000.

It's hard to bear demographics.

I did some looking into this during football season an the south's dominance in football is completely insane. In the period with the 4 team playoff so like the last 11 years or something well over 50% of first round NFL draft picks have been from 6 states I think like Texas, Florida, Georgia, California, Louisiana, and maybe Alabama or something like that. During that time like 3 schools have made the college football playoff that are either not in those states or a state that borders those state.

 

[bourbon n blues]

I did some looking into this during football season an the south's dominance in football is completely insane. In the period with the 4 team playoff so like the last 11 years or something well over 50% of first round NFL draft picks have been from 6 states I think like Texas, Florida, Georgia, California, Louisiana, and maybe Alabama or something like that. During that time like 3 schools have made the college football playoff that are either not in those states or a state that borders those state.

Exactly. PSU fans, I'm one too, drive me nuts. It's going to take an act of God for us to win a title but they want to blame Franklin. Wrestling? a few months ago here I said PSU was the SEC of wrestling. Look at the results and compare theirs to the SEC? PSU has won one more title than the SEC since Sanderson has arrived and this year it'll be 2. It's all demographics and it sucks for rabid fanbases, but it's hard to fight the shifts in population.

I know as a PSU football fan. Every year from about 1978 to say mid 90s I knew it was our year. After 1994 we haven't come close. And I do not see that changing any time soon.

 

[Bosox2004]

While you wait for the experts to provide info, this from a few years back is interesting

The Rise, Fall, And Resurgence Of Iowa High School Wrestling - FloWrestling

Iowa high school wrestling used to be the gold standard but it has fallen on hard times lately. Has this proud wrestling state returned to its former glory?

www.flowrestling.org

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Dude. It's getting better. Iowa fell off BIGLY. It's not just going to turn around in a 3-4 year window.

Are you going to see some mass increase in production outside of the elite kids? Probably not - Iowa just isn't constructed that way. To be a D1 AA basically requires you to be an elite high school kid. It's going to get rarer and rarer for the likes of a Drew Foster to AA, let alone win ships.

Yep.

Iowa is returning to the mean because other states actually started trying and investing in wrestling, so Iowa went back to giving us nice little stories like football and basketball do.

It truly indeed is GG RIP to Iowa wrestling, but across the board.

 

[MVPFAN]

I can see the ability to fill weight classes as easy to judge but how do you compare talent across generations like that? Just curious. I assume participation is down because there are more things for kids to do and kids are less likely to do many things. As an example I think a lot more high schools now have bowling and trap and archery and even things like robotics club and e sports compared to when I was in high school 20 or so years ago.

Because there are way more awful wrestlers filling up lineups than there was back then.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Because there are way more awful wrestlers filling up lineups than there was back then.

Blame Penn State and money.

 

[Fan In Black]

I don't have any stats but I can tell it has dropped off. It started right around the Matt McD, Moore, DSJ, Carew era...maybe after Clark and Giman. That time period.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

While you wait for the experts to provide info, this from a few years back is interesting

The Rise, Fall, And Resurgence Of Iowa High School Wrestling - FloWrestling

Iowa high school wrestling used to be the gold standard but it has fallen on hard times lately. Has this proud wrestling state returned to its former glory?

www.flowrestling.org

Interesting article, thanks for sharing.

I think Sebolt and Big Game are net good for wrestling in the state of Iowa, but neither have really produced much at the D1 level thus far correct?It feels like a reach for Dylan Carew to claim his club is in the top 7 in the country. I'm not very well versed in HS wrestling across the country, so I could be wrong but if true, where are the results in college?

And I didn't see a lot at the state finals that makes me optimistic for the near future.

Given the quality of high school/youth wrestling in the state Iowa currently, it's extremely disappointing and concerning everytime someone shared that the Brands bros were no where to be seen at major high school tournaments while all of the other top coaches were there.

 

[burk11]

Pretty good stuff.

 

[artradley]

I don't think that Iowa wrestling really got worse. I think wrestling in other states got more popular and better. Iowa wrestling is getting better though but demographics are never likely to make it dominate like it was in the 70s 80s and 90s. PA and the states that touch it have twice to population of Iowa and the states that touch it.

This is my take. My son wrestled in New Jersey from 2003 to 2014. By 2010 there were at least ten high quality wrestling clubs he could drive to in 30 minutes or less. Any halfway competitive kid was wrestling year round, and getting quality competition (Regularly rolled with Jordan Kutler, David McFadden, Joey McKenna, and a host of others.)

At the same time, if we traveled to a Iowa to visit family, I would look around and not find any within an hour. I have to guess that as spread out as Iowa is, with few large cities, a significant percentage of young men only wrestle in season. When other states weren’t paying much attention that was t a big deal. But now it is.

 

[93hawkeye]

Worse in absolute (historical) terms, no. Worse in relative terms, yes. (Or maybe was worse and slightly getting better)? Kids wrestle waaaaaay more matches than they used to and general skill and savvy is at an all time high IMO. As others mention, Iowa kids aren't as dominant because lots of other states have caught up.

 

[mgogel]

I'm always amazed that Ubasa doesn't get more props in threads like this. Especially this one that makes a distinction between national level high school success verses college success. I think Sebolt and Big Game are delivering national results at youth and HS levels, but it seems like the club that has delivered a disproportionate number of D1 AA's compared with the size of the club is Ubasa.

 

[bourbon n blues]

Worse in absolute (historical) terms, no. Worse in relative terms, yes. (Or maybe was worse and slightly getting better)? Kids wrestle waaaaaay more matches than they used to and general skill and savvy is at an all time high IMO. As others mention, Iowa kids aren't as dominant because lots of other states have caught up.

It's the athletic smaller guy sport. Kids will do what is available. I could never play sports due to my stature and would've wrestled if my coach was more dishonest lol. I was working out on my own and once worked out with some guys from our wrestling team which was struggling. They mentioned about trying out and gave me all the positives and I was excited to try.

Turns out we had an open weight class and I had never tried at my then age of 15. Coach called me up that night and I was all in until he said I could start Saturday. It was Wednesday night and I was in the most competitive area in the country. Google Joe Cesari, wrestling coach and you'll get the idea. We lived in NEPA and so many teams were very competitive. I did not want to get killed after maybe 2 practices.

Now if he told me if I work hard I might crack the starting lineup in a few weeks I would've dove in lolol. I would've been like one of those Edinboro guys going against PSU. 😂😂😂

https://vault.si.com/vault/1989/01/16/gold-amid-the-coal-coach-joe-cesari-has-made-pennsylvanias-rich-wrestling-tradition-even-richer

These fellows were on the schedule .

 

[BGon4ND]

I see a lot of blaming of the Iowa youth/HS coaches and kids, maybe the blame should be on the college coaches not developing them. Because it looks like they are coming out of high school pretty good.

2021: Juniors; FS Duals 1st; Fargo FS 5th GR 5th
2022: Juniors: FS & GR Duals 1st; Fargo FS 1st GR 5th
2023 Juniors: FS 4th GR 3rd; Fargo FS 5th GR 2nd