Is Israel Becoming a "Pariah State"?

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Genocide. Attacks on the ICC. The rise of a theocratic extreme right. Illegal settlements. Killing and banning journalists. ... And now they are attacking nations who support a 2-state solution (which is also the US position the last time I checked, but we won't actually do anything about it).

Ireland, Spain and Norway to recognise Palestinian state​

Irish leader declares ‘unequivocal support’ for two-state solution, as Israel recalls ambassadors from Dublin, Madrid and Oslo

Ireland, Spain and Norway to recognise Palestinian state

Irish leader declares ‘unequivocal support’ for two-state solution, as Israel recalls ambassadors from Dublin, Madrid and Oslo

www.theguardian.com

Israel-Gaza war live: Palestinian state should be realised through negotiations, White House says, as Norway, Ireland and Spain say they will recognise it​

Israel-Gaza war live: Palestinian state should be realised through negotiations, White House says, as Norway, Ireland and Spain say they will recognise it

Joe Biden does not believe unilateral recognition is the right path; Norwegian PM Jonas Gahr Støre said ‘there cannot be peace in the Middle East if there is no recognition’

www.theguardian.com

 

[BrianNole777]

I don't think the phrase "genocide" is fair. Israel could wipe out the Palestinians in a week if they wanted to.

Hamas started this war by killing 1,700+ innocent Israelis on October 7. Hamas also uses human shields which increases the civilian casualties.

The majority of the Palestinians never seem to accept the fact that they lost decades ago. It would be like South Carolina continuing to attack the Union 40 years after the Civil War.

IMHO.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

The majority of the Palestinians never seem to accept the fact that they lost decades ago. It would be like South Carolina continuing to attack the Union 40 years after the Civil War.

It would like that IF we maintained SC as a fenced-off, embargoed outdoor prison, controlled many of their resources, and routinely sent in the troops to keep the prisoners from resisting too much.

I find it fascinating that we revere many resistance groups throughout history, but revile others.

 

[Colonoscopy]

More like piranha. Chewing up all that Hamas flesh

 

[TC Nole OX]

It would be like South Carolina continuing to attack the Union 40 years after the Civil War.

IMHO.

If you haven’t noticed, a sizable portion of the confederacy have yet to accept defeat. Today, they are a driving force behind MAGA.

 

[BrianNole777]

It would like that IF we maintained SC as a fenced-off, embargoed outdoor prison, controlled many of their resources, and routinely sent in the troops to keep the prisoners from resisting too much.

I find it fascinating that we revere many resistance groups throughout history, but revile others.

SC surrendered and stopped attacking the Union.

The Palestinians haven't stopped attacking Israel. They won't accept defeat.

If the Palestinians would stop attacking Israel, everything would be different.

 

[ButtersHawk]

I didn't vote because the entire situation is just sad. Just a total sh!tshow. I fully 100% see why Israel wants to control Palestine and why they live in fear of their neighbor.

I also fully 100% see why every new generation of Palestinian child would want to revolt and attack Israel at a moments notice.

It's just sad and why I hate war. We live in a cycle where we basically explain to our children... hey if we shoot enough babies in the face today in the future we won't have to shoot anymore babies in the face. Then in the future if someone ruins it and shoots our babies in the face then we'll go there and shoot their babies in the face.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

It would like that IF we maintained SC as a fenced-off, embargoed outdoor prison, controlled many of their resources, and routinely sent in the troops to keep the prisoners from resisting too much.

I find it fascinating that we revere many resistance groups throughout history, but revile others.

Name onw single war where the "bad" guys won.


History is written by the Victors.

 

[thewop]

No. Anti-semites use the term "genocide" to attempt to liken this to what Hitler did to the Jews.

It's disgusting, horribly disrespectful to those who were exterminated by the Nazis, and tells you all you need to know about those who use the term so flippantly.

 

[ThorneStockton]

It could be. If the day after plan is a permanent military occupation of Gaza. Said another way, if the Israeli right wing and Jewish supremacists get their way. That sort of arrangement, plus annexation in the West Bank could lead to severed diplomatic ties, diminished trade, grandstanding at the UN, etc. The sort of things that happen to "excluded" countries.

But are you ever truly a pariah if the USA is on your side?

 

[Tiny Hands Trump]

If Israel put down their weapons what would happen? We all know.

If Palestine put down their weapons what would happen? We all know and it is 100% the opposite of the initial question.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

It would like that IF we maintained SC as a fenced-off, embargoed outdoor prison, controlled many of their resources, and routinely sent in the troops to keep the prisoners from resisting too much.

And then sanction Yankee settlers taking the best land and forcing South Carolinians out.

 

[BelemNole]

If Israel put down their weapons what would happen? We all know.

If Palestine put down their weapons what would happen? We all know and it is 100% the opposite of the initial question.

They'd be slowly pushed off their land by 'illegal' settlements that the govt supports and protects?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

No. Anti-semites use the term "genocide" to attempt to liken this to what Hitler did to the Jews.

It's disgusting, horribly disrespectful to those who were exterminated by the Nazis, and tells you all you need to know about those who use the term so flippantly.

Hitler couldn't "exterminate" the Jews...he could only try to wipe them out in the territory Germany controlled. He could kill them or drive them out through force and fear. Is that what Israel is trying to do to the Palestinians in the areas they control?

 

[Bulldogs1974]

It would like that IF we maintained SC as a fenced-off, embargoed outdoor prison, controlled many of their resources, and routinely sent in the troops to keep the prisoners from resisting too much.

I find it fascinating that we revere many resistance groups throughout history, but revile others.

give it up and read some history books. This comes down to one thing: If islam (yep all of them) got rid of their weapons what would happen, If Isreal got rid of all their weapons: what would happen.
You know the answer and are just too intellectually lazy to admit the outcome.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

If you haven’t noticed, a sizable portion of the confederacy have yet to accept defeat. Today, they are a driving force behind MAGA.

Maybe we should treat them like Israel treats Gaza's population?

Not serious. Then again I read that Trump has talked about internment camps. If we play our cards wrong, maybe the MAGAs will get to do to liberals what Israel is doing to Palestinians.

That should be fun.

I have some lib friends who are knee-jerk supporters of Israel. They rightly (imo) condemn Hamas and the 10/7 attack, but wrongly (again, imo) think that justifies slaughtering innocents in Gaza. Would becoming part of an oppressed demographic here engender empathy toward folks over there?

 

[Colonoscopy]

Maybe we should treat them like Israel treats Gaza's population?

Not serious. Then again I read that Trump has talked about internment camps. If we play our cards wrong, maybe the MAGAs will get to do to liberals what Israel is doing to Palestinians.

That should be fun.

I have some lib friends who are knee-jerk supporters of Israel. They rightly (imo) condemn Hamas and the 10/7 attack, but wrongly (again, imo) think that justifies slaughtering innocents in Gaza. Would becoming part of an oppressed demographic here engender empathy toward folks over there?

It most certainly justifies *some* slaughtering (aka civilian collateral) in Gaza. The question remains: how much is too much for what Israel gains.

Why can't intelligent people get this right?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

If the Palestinians would stop attacking Israel, everything would be different.

That's like Brits during the Troubles saying "If the IRA would stop attacking England, everything would be different."

In both instances, that simply ignores that when the resistance was quiet, the controlling power did not relent their oppression.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

It most certainly justifies *some* slaughtering (aka civilian collateral) in Gaza.

"Excuses," maybe; "justifies" is a harder sell.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

The question remains: how much is too much for what Israel gains.

Fair enough. What's your answer? It crossed that line for me months ago.

 

[Jimmy McGill]

It is ironic that Israel is committing genocide

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Hitler couldn't "exterminate" the Jews...he could only try to wipe them out in the territory Germany controlled. He could kill them or drive them out through force and fear. Is that what Israel is trying to do to the Palestinians in the areas they control?

Is this a serious adult thought? You really think if hitler wins ww2 he doesn't expand concentration camps.
To even compare the two is childish, silly, and trumpian.
Do better.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

That's like Brits during the Troubles saying "If the IRA would stop attacking England, everything would be different."

In both instances, that simply ignores that when the resistance was quiet, the controlling power did not relent their oppression.

LOL.
Again childish and stupid comment. Where other countries not in britain trying to wipe england off the map?
At least come up with a good comparison. Oh, that's right... there aren't any.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

some big sharia law fans here.

 

[BrianNole777]

That's like Brits during the Troubles saying "If the IRA would stop attacking England, everything would be different."

In both instances, that simply ignores that when the resistance was quiet, the controlling power did not relent their oppression.

What's your solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict?

 

[Colonoscopy]

Fair enough. What's your answer? It crossed that line for me months ago.

I don't know, exactly. I'd have to read a lot more about the conflict and then consider. Especially on the "what is Israel getting" side of things. As in; is all this really building a more secure Israel?

Where Israel is concerned, I'd ask: to achieve X level of security for your people, was it really necessary to take action that resulted in Y level of civilian casualty? The level of security and level of casualty have a lot to say about the reasonableness of action.

We can all imagine -- you really should be able to if you're intellectually honest with yourself -- scenarios in which a significant amount civilian collateral is acceptable, as well as unacceptable.

 

[Colonoscopy]

It is ironic that Israel is committing genocide

They probably aren't. You're a lawyer, lets see you argue this one. You're going to have to make a strong argument that 10/7 was merely a useful pre-text for a genocidally minded Israel to take action. There are about 5 million palestinians, 30k (ish) which have perished due to genocide, you'd argue. You'd argue that Israel is seeking to kill all the palestinian people and or drive them all out of their current territory.

Definition:
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

 

[GOHOX69]

Genocide. Attacks on the ICC. The rise of a theocratic extreme right. Illegal settlements. Killing and banning journalists. ... And now they are attacking nations who support a 2-state solution (which is also the US position the last time I checked, but we won't actually do anything about it).

Ireland, Spain and Norway to recognise Palestinian state​

Irish leader declares ‘unequivocal support’ for two-state solution, as Israel recalls ambassadors from Dublin, Madrid and Oslo

Ireland, Spain and Norway to recognise Palestinian state

Irish leader declares ‘unequivocal support’ for two-state solution, as Israel recalls ambassadors from Dublin, Madrid and Oslo

www.theguardian.com

Israel-Gaza war live: Palestinian state should be realised through negotiations, White House says, as Norway, Ireland and Spain say they will recognise it​

Israel-Gaza war live: Palestinian state should be realised through negotiations, White House says, as Norway, Ireland and Spain say they will recognise it

Joe Biden does not believe unilateral recognition is the right path; Norwegian PM Jonas Gahr Støre said ‘there cannot be peace in the Middle East if there is no recognition’

www.theguardian.com

Yes. Rapidly headed to shithole status just like Modi's India. Bibi and Modi can hug it out.

 

[ButtersHawk]

Ive read on the post ww1 history of this but is there a biblical significance to Gaza and the West Bank to Jews? In a morbid way I've thought why not let them have their state and the second they mess up go in, attack, and take over.

 

[Colonoscopy]

Here's a rather shitty definition of genocide:

Rights expert finds ‘reasonable grounds’ genocide is being committed in Gaza

There are "reasonable grounds" to believe that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza, the UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territories said on Tuesday.

news.un.org

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Is this a serious adult thought? You really think if hitler wins ww2 he doesn't expand concentration camps.
To even compare the two is childish, silly, and trumpian.
Do better.

Is this an adult thought? You really think Germany could have controlled the entire fvcking planet?

His goal was to drive Jews out of German controlled territory or kill them. That’s simply a statement of fact. The only question is whether or not that’s Israel’s goal. If someone thinks that it is, it isn’t much of a leap at all to compare them. They don’t have to be the same in scale to be comparable, you know.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

They probably aren't. You're a lawyer, lets see you argue this one. You're going to have to make a strong argument that 10/7 was merely a useful pre-text for a genocidally minded Israel to take action. There are about 5 million palestinians, 30k (ish) which have perished due to genocide, you'd argue. You'd argue that Israel is seeking to kill all the palestinian people and or drive them all out of their current territory.

Definition:
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

That's a sloppy definition of genocide and hardly the one you want to base your analysis or nitpicking on.

Looking for a better one - but not wanting to put myself asleep by reading a book on international law - I turned to Wikipedia. I suggest you give the first few paragraphs a look. It's probably not perfect, either, but it's a much better place to start.

Genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I found this discussion by Lemkin (who coined the term) to be pretty interesting

"Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups."

 

[TennNole17]

You're all idiots if you think there's a solution, or a "right" side.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Is this an adult thought? You really think Germany could have controlled the entire fvcking planet?

His goal was to drive Jews out of German controlled territory or kill them. That’s simply a statement of fact. The only question is whether or not that’s Israel’s goal. If someone thinks that it is, it isn’t much of a leap at all to compare them. They don’t have to be the same in scale to be comparable, you know.

No need to kill them as long as they know their place, follow orders, and never resist.

But it's hard to get the equivalent of Jim Crow to work these days. There are always some who think they know better, and get worked up about it, and cause trouble.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Is this an adult thought? You really think Germany could have controlled the entire fvcking planet?

His goal was to drive Jews out of German controlled territory or kill them. That’s simply a statement of fact. The only question is whether or not that’s Israel’s goal. If someone thinks that it is, it isn’t much of a leap at all to compare them. They don’t have to be the same in scale to be comparable, you know.

you don't think winning world war 2 would have given him reign over 90%+ of the jewish population on the planet?
His goal was to kill every one of them he could. The comparison of the two is stupid and childlike. They aren't comparable simply due to scale but to the fact one certainly would have happened given the opportunity and hitler was actually systematically exterminating people. Nowhere near what is happening

AGAIN:
What would happen if hamas/palestine laid down their weapons? What would happen if isreal laid down their weapons.
The comparison is absolutely stupid and intellectually dishonest.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

No need to kill them as long as they know their place, follow orders, and never resist.

But it's hard to get the equivalent of Jim Crow to work these days. There are always some who think they know better, and get worked up about it, and cause trouble.

please do: answer my question that I posed to you earlier and to tarheel. you know 100% the outcome and that is why it is not a genocide.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Summary of advice that UK arms sales to Israel not unlawful to be released​

Andrew Mitchell preparing to share details of assessment that there is no clear risk in breaching international human law

The British government is preparing to publish a summary of its legal advice stating there are no clear risks that selling arms to Israel will lead to a serious breach of international humanitarian law (IHL).

(but then...)

In one exchange, Mitchell said: “You cannot use starvation as a weapon of war and remain within humanitarian law, that is clear.”

more here

Summary of advice that UK arms sales to Israel not unlawful to be released

Andrew Mitchell preparing to share details of assessment that there is no clear risk in breaching international human law

www.theguardian.com

 

[BrianNole777]

Summary of advice that UK arms sales to Israel not unlawful to be released​

Andrew Mitchell preparing to share details of assessment that there is no clear risk in breaching international human law

The British government is preparing to publish a summary of its legal advice stating there are no clear risks that selling arms to Israel will lead to a serious breach of international humanitarian law (IHL).

(but then...)

In one exchange, Mitchell said: “You cannot use starvation as a weapon of war and remain within humanitarian law, that is clear.”

more here

Summary of advice that UK arms sales to Israel not unlawful to be released

Andrew Mitchell preparing to share details of assessment that there is no clear risk in breaching international human law

www.theguardian.com

What do you think should be done?

Should the world cut off all aid to Israel?

If that happened, it would be like the Holocaust part 2.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

What do you think should be done?

Should the world cut off all aid to Israel?

If that happened, it would be like the Holocaust part 2.

Israel hasn't needed our aid for a long time. They are a rich, powerful nation.

So, yes, we should cut off aid to Israel. But that does NOT mean we won't help them if they need help.

If they want that help, though, they need to behave better.

As for what should be done on the ground, an immediate cease fire seems like an obvious place to start.

Your turn. Who should pay to rebuild Gaza? Or should we just turn our backs?

 

[BrianNole777]

Israel hasn't needed our aid for a long time. They are a rich, powerful nation.

So, yes, we should cut off aid to Israel. But that does NOT mean we won't help them if they need help.

If they want that help, though, they need to behave better.

As for what should be done on the ground, an immediate cease fire seems like an obvious place to start.

Your turn. Who should pay to rebuild Gaza? Or should we just turn our backs?

Dunno.

That conflict seems intractable.