Is it time for MLB to consider expansion?

[lucas80]

Interesting list of cities being mentioned. Very interesting considering it's only been a few years since people were writing obituaries for the Marlins and Twins and openly discussing contraction in the league. Besides the usual suspects of Las Vegas, San Antonio, and another team in California, I like that places like Havana and San Juan are being thrown out there. Obviously way off long shots, but, it makes for interesting discussion.
Could you envision a MLB in Havana?
http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/06/25/rob-manfred-mlb-expansion-montreal-baseball-portland-charlotte

 

[Run&Blade]

Closest you would get is Marlins playing some home games in Cuba.

I think every league could stand to contract a couple teams. Except football.

 

[LuteHawk]

Currently MLB brags about its parity among the 30 teams.
In reality it is really mediocrity. Too many teams do not
have legitimate starting rotations of 5 MLB pitchers. This
is what separates the contenders from the pretenders.
Is there enough talent for every current team to have 5
good starters?

The Tampa Bay Rays need to move to a city that will
fill a stadium. This is one team that is having financial
problems due to lack of attendance. Let them move
to Montreal. At this point any expansion of MLB would
be a joke.

 

[whatsup12579er]

Lute hit the nail on the head. Move the Rays to the highest bidder.

 

[BrentJDiekman]

Lute hit the nail on the head. Move the Rays to the highest bidder.

Havana would be really cool, and not create travel problems. I know Portland would love a franchise, but don't know how well they'd support it. Back to Montreal seems an obvious target, though I can't remember why they lost theirs in the first place. What a group of players they put together, sheesh.

 

[LunchBox50]

Closest you would get is Marlins playing some home games in Cuba.

I think every league could stand to contract a couple teams. Except football.

I agree with this 100%. Whenever you add teams, you're adding entire rosters of guys who prior to the expansion weren't good enough to make it to the league. It only dilutes the product.

 

[hawkifann]

When I first moved here, I hoped Charlotte would get an MLB team, but while I do think there's probably enough market to support it, I don't know that Charlotte would ever truly love the team. This is right in the middle of Braves country and the Nats have made some inroads. Additionally, there are a lot of transplants from Ohio, NY/NJ and Boston that haven't given up the teams of their youth. Maybe they'd love a Charlotte team, but maybe not. The Panthers have done ok in Charlotte and the Hornets do reasonably well when MJ isn't rolling out a garbage product.

 

[ANYCHawk]

I agree with this 100%. Whenever you add teams, you're adding entire rosters of guys who prior to the expansion weren't good enough to make it to the league. It only dilutes the product.

initially yes, but over time it's built back up. Same thing happened in 61 but look by the 70s the talent pool was built back up. There is enough talent in places like the dominican and in America with improved amateur talent to build it up fairly quickly. Look the last time we expanded with Arizona and Tampa. That was a dozen years ago and look at all the talent across the league now.

 

[rchawk]

Interesting list of cities being mentioned. Very interesting considering it's only been a few years since people were writing obituaries for the Marlins and Twins and openly discussing contraction in the league. Besides the usual suspects of Las Vegas, San Antonio, and another team in California, I like that places like Havana and San Juan are being thrown out there. Obviously way off long shots, but, it makes for interesting discussion.
Could you envision a MLB in Havana?
http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/06/25/rob-manfred-mlb-expansion-montreal-baseball-portland-charlotte

Absolutely not. Another MLB team would dilute quality of the pitching. There should be fewer teams, not more.

 

[HallofFame]

Currently MLB brags about its parity among the 30 teams.
In reality it is really mediocrity. Too many teams do not
have legitimate starting rotations of 5 MLB pitchers. This
is what separates the contenders from the pretenders.
Is there enough talent for every current team to have 5
good starters?

The Tampa Bay Rays need to move to a city that will
fill a stadium. This is one team that is having financial
problems due to lack of attendance. Let them move
to Montreal. At this point any expansion of MLB would
be a joke.

It has better parity than the other major sports.

 

[SSG T]

Absolutely not. Another MLB team would dilute quality of the pitching. There should be fewer teams, not more.

The quality of pitching is as good as it's ever been. Go look at some of the staffs from the past. In the 1940s and 50s team would have 2-3 decent pitchers, maybe. Part of the reason for having so much specialization is that there are enough pitchers to do it. I used to believe in the dilution myth, then I went and looked up the numbers. It's just that, a myth.

 

[ANYCHawk]

Absolutely not. Another MLB team would dilute quality of the pitching. There should be fewer teams, not more.

Good good there is so much quality pitching to go around it's silly. Pitching isn't MLB's issue right now.

 

[SSG T]

One thing people forget. In 1960, before the first set of MLB expansion, the pool of players was the 180 mil or so people the US had. At the time, there were 16 teams. That's about 11.25 mil per team.

Compare that with the current pool of players. 320 mil in the US, 130 mil in Japan, 120 mil in Mexico, 10 mil in DMR, 30 Mil in Venezuela, that's 600+ mil people. That's 20 mil per team, a far bigger pool of talent to choose from.

 

[theVoicefromtheTomb]

The quality of pitching is as good as it's ever been. Go look at some of the staffs from the past. In the 1940s and 50s team would have 2-3 decent pitchers, maybe. Part of the reason for having so much specialization is that there are enough pitchers to do it. I used to believe in the dilution myth, then I went and looked up the numbers. It's just that, a myth.

It's not pitching that is missing, it's hitting.

Rays will move to Montreal, a natural fit for the AL East. I think the Marlins could succeed if they had a rational plan as an organization.

 

[hawkifann]

A lot of the arguments about pitching dilution seem to revolve around lower-half teams being able to field competitive 4th/5th starters. It used to be that middle relievers and maybe even setup guys and closers were failed starters. That's not really the case anymore. There's a lot of value now in having guys for the 7th, 8th and 9th that you can count on to get outs. Some of the power bullpen arms might have been good 4th starters 2 decades ago. Aroldis Chapman is certainly talented enough to develop one more pitch and go 5-6 innings every 5 days, but he has so much more value firing 103 mph cheese for 1 inning 3 times per week. Specialization has changed the game......you're no longer pulling the starter out and handing the game to an inferior pitcher like you were 40 years ago.

 

[TJ8869]

Montreal would be a huge mistake. That's a hockey town. I happened to be there for a week during one of the final years of the Expos. Opening Day had all the usual pomp and pageantry and the stadium was filled. Then the next night 10,000 people showed up. One day of interest and then it was back to hockey.

If the Habs are in the playoffs, baseball can forget about people showing up in April or May. And if the team doesn't get off to a good start, no one's going to show up even after hockey ends.

 

[cigaretteman]

When I first moved here, I hoped Charlotte would get an MLB team, but while I do think there's probably enough market to support it, I don't know that Charlotte would ever truly love the team. This is right in the middle of Braves country and the Nats have made some inroads. Additionally, there are a lot of transplants from Ohio, NY/NJ and Boston that haven't given up the teams of their youth. Maybe they'd love a Charlotte team, but maybe not. The Panthers have done ok in Charlotte and the Hornets do reasonably well when MJ isn't rolling out a garbage product.

Aren't the Hornets the Pelicans now? I always still think of the Charlotte Hornets too!

 

[hawkifann]

Yep, the Hornets moved to NO and eventually became the Pelicans, then the Bobcats were an expansion team and just became the Hornets again. What's old is new again.

 

[cigaretteman]

Yep, the Hornets moved to NO and eventually became the Pelicans, then the Bobcats were an expansion team and just became the Hornets again. What's old is new again.

Thanks, I hadn't heard that they became the Hornets again. It will be much easier to remember than the Charlotte Bobcats!

 

[TJ8869]

One thing people forget. In 1960, before the first set of MLB expansion, the pool of players was the 180 mil or so people the US had. At the time, there were 16 teams. That's about 11.25 mil per team.

Compare that with the current pool of players. 320 mil in the US, 130 mil in Japan, 120 mil in Mexico, 10 mil in DMR, 30 Mil in Venezuela, that's 600+ mil people. That's 20 mil per team, a far bigger pool of talent to choose from.

The population has increased but that doesn't necessarily mean the talent pool has doubled. How many kids grow up playing baseball these days? In the 1960s every kid wanted to grow up to be the next Joe DiMaggio or Mickey Mantle.

These days half the kids in America never venture outside to play. They'd rather lay on the couch playing XBox or spending their day on social media. We could probably field a competitive league of video baseball players much more easily than a league of actual baseball players.

 

[whatsup12579er]

One thing people forget. In 1960, before the first set of MLB expansion, the pool of players was the 180 mil or so people the US had. At the time, there were 16 teams. That's about 11.25 mil per team.

Compare that with the current pool of players. 320 mil in the US, 130 mil in Japan, 120 mil in Mexico, 10 mil in DMR, 30 Mil in Venezuela, that's 600+ mil people. That's 20 mil per team, a far bigger pool of talent to choose from.

In 1960 baseball was the king of professional sports and all the kids played baseball in the summer. Now kids are playing football, basketball, soccer, track, hockey, lacrosse, xbox, playstation, and iphone apps. The population has increase but the talent pool that baseball has to choose from certainly has decreased. It would probably make you sad the number of kids that don't even have a glove or don't have a dad/father figure to play catch with.

 

[BioHawk]

Havana would be really cool, and not create travel problems. I know Portland would love a franchise, but don't know how well they'd support it. Back to Montreal seems an obvious target, though I can't remember why they lost theirs in the first place. What a group of players they put together, sheesh.

They lost their team because they were averaging about 500 people a game for 3+ seasons. No way Montreal gets another team.

 

[bagdropper]

Not until the stadium issues with Oakland and Tampa are resolved.

 

[ANYCHawk]

Montreal would be a huge mistake. That's a hockey town. I happened to be there for a week during one of the final years of the Expos. Opening Day had all the usual pomp and pageantry and the stadium was filled. Then the next night 10,000 people showed up. One day of interest and then it was back to hockey.

If the Habs are in the playoffs, baseball can forget about people showing up in April or May. And if the team doesn't get off to a good start, no one's going to show up even after hockey ends.

This is just wrong/true with any team.

Montreal average 20000 fans a game until 1999 when they were sold to Loria and he didn't get the ballpark deal done and failed to extend radio/TV contracts. It was clear the team was gonna move so people stopped going.

Hockey isn't the issue in early spring. It the fact the kids are still in school, which is true for any market. Look at Detroit or St. Louis or wherever early in spring. See a weekday night game and half empty stadiums. It's hard to take the family when the 7 year old has homework/school the next day.

 

[ANYCHawk]

They lost their team because they were averaging about 500 people a game for 3+ seasons. No way Montreal gets another team.

Because they had no media deal/a crap owner and clear they were gonna move. It amazes me how people just cite the last few years of the Expos and ignore the rest.

Here is their attendance figures

http://exposnation.com/en/montreal-expos-attendance-per-year/

 

[ANYCHawk]

In 1960 baseball was the king of professional sports and all the kids played baseball in the summer. Now kids are playing football, basketball, soccer, track, hockey, lacrosse, xbox, playstation, and iphone apps. The population has increase but the talent pool that baseball has to choose from certainly has decreased. It would probably make you sad the number of kids that don't even have a glove or don't have a dad/father figure to play catch with.

 

[SSG T]

Because they had no media deal/a crap owner and clear they were gonna move. It amazes me how people just cite the last few years of the Expos and ignore the rest.

Here is their attendance figures

http://exposnation.com/en/montreal-expos-attendance-per-year/

Wasn't their TV deal paying them something like 2% of what the Blue Jays got per game?

 

[theVoicefromtheTomb]

If you listen to those in the know around baseball Montreal is considered a very possible expansion site. Their previous run was tainted by bad team management at the end, a poor stadium, and lack of natural rivalries. Build a new stadium that is both indoor/outdoor and put the Montreal Rays in the AL East. You have a natural rivalry with Toronto and the other teams in the east.

I think international expansion is a natural. A team in Havana would be a great draw however the ability of the locals to afford MLB ticket prices would be in question.

 

[torbee]

Here's my crazy thought - instead of expanding the MLB - why not model things after how European soccer leagues work?

That is, instead of the traditional Triple A that is permanently a step below the MLB level, create a "champions league" of mid-sized markets like Omaha, Charlotte, San Antonio, Portland, Las Vegas, New Orleans, Montreal, Buffalo, etc. and make relegation a reality.

At the end of the season, the top 3 teams in this Champions League get to taste the MLB level the next season, and the bottome 3 record teams in the MLB would be dropped into the Champions League.

THis would really juice up some of those otherwise boring late August and September series. Can you imagine the Cubs fighting to avoid having to play an entire season down a league ?!

It would never happen, but it sure would be fun as hell.

 

[cigaretteman]

This is just wrong/true with any team.

Montreal average 20000 fans a game until 1999 when they were sold to Loria and he didn't get the ballpark deal done and failed to extend radio/TV contracts. It was clear the team was gonna move so people stopped going.

Hockey isn't the issue in early spring. It the fact the kids are still in school, which is true for any market. Look at Detroit or St. Louis or wherever early in spring. See a weekday night game and half empty stadiums. It's hard to take the family when the 7 year old has homework/school the next day.

Didn't the strike hurt their attendance a lot too? If I recall correctly (which may very well not be the case) it really looked like they were headed to the World Series that year, and then it was cancelled.

 

[CarolinaHawkeye]

Here's my crazy thought - instead of expanding the MLB - why not model things after how European soccer leagues work?

That is, instead of the traditional Triple A that is permanently a step below the MLB level, create a "champions league" of mid-sized markets like Omaha, Charlotte, San Antonio, Portland, Las Vegas, New Orleans, Montreal, Buffalo, etc. and make relegation a reality.

At the end of the season, the top 3 teams in this Champions League get to taste the MLB level the next season, and the bottome 3 record teams in the MLB would be dropped into the Champions League.

THis would really juice up some of those otherwise boring late August and September series. Can you imagine the Cubs fighting to avoid having to play an entire season down a league ?!

It would never happen, but it sure would be fun as hell.

Only one problem that I can see and that is the players in the champion leagues are actually under contract to teams in the majors.

 

[whatsup12579er]

View embedded media

Care to explain why?

 

[ANYCHawk]

Didn't the strike hurt their attendance a lot too? If I recall correctly (which may very well not be the case) it really looked like they were headed to the World Series that year, and then it was cancelled.

Yes. They had the best record and the strike killed them like many other markets. Other places rebounded but Montreal never did because soon after the strike they knew the team was gonna move.

 

[ANYCHawk]

Care to explain why?

Cause amatuer baseball is quite strong and heck baseball is making inroads again with inner city african american youth. But,I could just be spitballing hearing not using tired old myths.

 

[ANYCHawk]

Here's my crazy thought - instead of expanding the MLB - why not model things after how European soccer leagues work?

That is, instead of the traditional Triple A that is permanently a step below the MLB level, create a "champions league" of mid-sized markets like Omaha, Charlotte, San Antonio, Portland, Las Vegas, New Orleans, Montreal, Buffalo, etc. and make relegation a reality.

At the end of the season, the top 3 teams in this Champions League get to taste the MLB level the next season, and the bottome 3 record teams in the MLB would be dropped into the Champions League.

THis would really juice up some of those otherwise boring late August and September series. Can you imagine the Cubs fighting to avoid having to play an entire season down a league ?!

It would never happen, but it sure would be fun as hell.

No just no. And I'll never understand the fascination with the European style of relegation. Sometimes its OK to suck. Houston did it for a few years got some high draft picks and now is set for the next decade. What's wrong with that strategy? Relegation takes that away.

 

[ANYCHawk]

Wasn't their TV deal paying them something like 2% of what the Blue Jays got per game?

They didn't have a TV deal (in English) cause Loria is a moron. Just look what he's doing to the Marlins.

 

[torbee]

No just no. And I'll never understand the fascination with the European style of relegation. Sometimes its OK to suck. Houston did it for a few years got some high draft picks and now is set for the next decade. What's wrong with that strategy? Relegation takes that away.

A few reasons relegation is entertaining:

• You never, ever, see teams tank on purpose in order to improve their draft position, etc., There is too much at stake financially to lose on purpose. Not true in American pro sports, where sucking to get better is all-too frequent
• It gives fans of struggling teams something to cheer for. Fighting for your spot in the top league is a HUGE deal. You'd still get big crowds for late season games when your team is 20 games out.
• It's super exciting for smaller market fandoms to get a crack at the big boys with their team. Can you imagine if Des Moines had a team and they got to host the New York Yankees? That would be awesome.

As I said, it will never happen because of the way American leagues are set up (the club model is very different than in Europe). But it certainly has appeal for fans, IMO.

 

[RalphKramden]

• It's super exciting for smaller market fandoms to get a crack at the big boys with their team. Can you imagine if Des Moines had a team and they got to host the New York Yankees? That would be awesome.

How in the hell could someone like Des Moines ever hope to compete financially with the New York Friggin Yankees? That's like Coe College hoping that they get a shot to play Alabama in football. It's as pointless as it is stupid.

The problem with relegation is that the teams that move up are pressured to spend way beyond their means in the desperate hope that they can compete with the big boys for a year or two, only to inevitably be sent back down again, only now they're nearly bankrupt, and for what? They never had a realistic chance to ever compete in the first place.

Yeah, great system.

 

[HawkFanatik]

Wasn't their TV deal paying them something like 2% of what the Blue Jays got per game?

If you listen to those in the know around baseball Montreal is considered a very possible expansion site. Their previous run was tainted by bad team management at the end, a poor stadium, and lack of natural rivalries. Build a new stadium that is both indoor/outdoor and put the Montreal Rays in the AL East. You have a natural rivalry with Toronto and the other teams in the east.

Good god, no. Expos please.

 

[whatsup12579er]

How in the hell could someone like Des Moines ever hope to compete financially with New York Friggin Yankees? That's like Coe College hoping that they get a shot to play Alabama in football. It's as pointless as it is stupid.

The problem with relegation is that the teams that move up are pressured to spend way beyond their means in the desperate hope that they can compete with the big boys for a year or two, only to inevitably be sent back down again, only now they're nearly bankrupt, and for what? They never had a realistic chance to ever compete in the first place.

Yeah, great system.

No one ever said a AAA club would/could compete financially with the Yankees. There are about 20 teams in the MLB right now that can't either. What's your point?