I've been telling you people that this ain't ready for prime time: Tesla recalls nearly ALL of its vehicles....
- Thread starter The Tradition
- Start date
And it’s not that you can’t “reason” with me, it’s that you cannot sufficiently persuade me to see it the way you do. I have used it for the last 18 months. I know what it can and cannot do. Have you ever used it?
Why would you try convincing me of something you clearly don’t understand from experience?
I understand adaptive cruise control and lane assist, yes.
Great, and I’m telling you, it takes all of 1 drive to understand how it works and its limitations. The name is irrelevant to practical experience. The name is meaningless.
People get in serious wrecks EVERY day with cruise control.
No one is calling for cruise control to be banned. Or that it is dangerous.
We all understand there are bad/stupid drivers and that driving is inherently an unsafe/risky activity. We all accept that.
Tesla is being singled out because the current administration is willing and able to slow down Elon Musk and his companies as much as possible. The FCC Commissioner just stated as much.
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I have a friend who turned on his Tesla's autopilot and it drove him to vaccine conspiracy convention.
They asserted that yes. They are welcome to their opinion.
A California government representative also tweeted “**** Elon Musk”
Tesla Fremont has resisted unionization efforts.
Tesla Fremont ignored Covid lockdowns demands by the county government. Elon Musk personally spearheaded to keep Fremont open and sparred with the county government.
You don’t think politics is at play here?
The FCC commissioner that was appointed by Trump? Well…sure…he’s a straight shooter when it comes to Musk.
I mean: if you want to cite him as an unbiased source, feel free.
Let me ask you this @Formerly Rockymtnole
Why does the NHTSA resist calls to reclassify Over The Air Software updates as something other than “Recalls.”
It COULDNT be that Tesla is the ONLY automaker capable of doing such a thing. And they would singularly benefit from a more accurate description.
That their cronies in the corporate media would then no longer be able to run MISLEADING headlines about 2 MILLION TESLAS RECALLED.
????
Why does the NHTSA resist calls to reclassify Over The Air Software updates as something other than “Recalls.”
It COULDNT be that Tesla is the ONLY automaker capable of doing such a thing. And they would singularly benefit from a more accurate description.
That their cronies in the corporate media would then no longer be able to run MISLEADING headlines about 2 MILLION TESLAS RECALLED.
????
You don’t seem to be refuting anything he is saying. I will take that as admission he is correct.
Is this really how you want POTUS to be spending his time? Conducting a Witchhunt after America’s greatest entrepreneur?
Recall is a common term for mandated fixes in pretty much any regulated industry. Certainly in health care.
Dude. He’s an appointee of Donald Trump and has spouted the usual right wing nonsense when it comes to communication regulations (opposing net neutrality and reforming section 230).
You’re advocating like he’s some unbiased cog in the government’s machinery.
He’s not.
Brendan Carr
Commissioner Brendan Carr is the senior Republican on the Federal Communications Commission, having served previously as the FCC’s General Counsel.
“Nominated by both President Trump and President Biden, Carr has been confirmed unanimously by the Senate three times.”
Oops.
LOL.
Nominated by both President Trump and President Biden, Carr has been confirmed unanimously by the Senate three times.
Let’s say for argument’s sake, he is partisan. Does that make his observations and statements less true? NO! They are Facts!
There’s no question he’s partisan.
So….facts? Really?
Anyway. Love the multiple replies. Anytime Musk’s good name is impugned.
But not obsessed. Nosireee.
I do agree that a software update is huge convenience for the consumer but let's not forget the reason for the update. If 100K people were killed there would still be people shrugging it off saying it's only a software update.
Moreover it is a huge distinction from a physical recall. Harder to run hit piece headlines on NBC if it is labeled correctly. Mandatory software update just doesn’t have the same ring to the scary RECALL.
Reason for the update? Dumb people.
Hypotheticals now? Ok.
Back to the important topic! Tell your boy to hire a decent designer to make his ugly as phuck cars more interesting than a 2000’s Taurus phenomenally!
Drag coefficient dominates Tesla styling with the exception of the Cybertruck. When battery density improves 40-50% or a generational leap in cell chemistry is achieved, styling will radically change. Unless you want 100 mile range vehicles, then sure, they could do traditional designs.
I don’t give a shit. They’re ugly. Fix it.
I don’t know whether you honestly don’t know the difference, or are being purposefully reductive. Cruise control can can be, and has been for decades, accomplished through a simple PID control loop…and only adjusts the vehicles throttle. Adaptive cruise control, lane assist, crash sense, etc are all more complicated/sophisticated controls…none of which have ever been marketed as “autopilot” from other car makers (to my knowledge).
I have always thought the branding of these features from Tesla was a bit premature, but also think the headline “Tesla recalls all their vehicles” has a much more dramatic connotation than necessary.
I have a new GMC Sierra with adaptive cruise control. The system doesn't keep you centered in a lane it more bounces you from line to line. It does a good job slowing you down when traffic slows ahead, even taking you to a complete stop and then resuming speed when I have had turning traffic ahead of me. Also when I am on the interstate and some highways the car will start steering for you on curves, it doesn't have to be in cruise control for that, just need lane keep assist on.
It is also supposed to have crash avoidance from the front, rear, and side I don't really want to test that one out.
Imagine a car company that can comply with NHTSA “recall” while your car is parked at home while you sleep.
Tesla has begun rolling out software 2023.44.30, which contains changes from the NHTSA recall, to the U.S. and Canada. All changes from the release notes are listed below.
1. Basic Autopilot Suspension — For max safety and accountability, use of Autopilot features will be suspended if improper usage is detected. Improper usage is when you or another driver receive 5 forced Autopilot disengagements. A disengagement is when the Autopilot system disengages for the rest of the trip after the driver receives several audio and visual warnings for inattentiveness. Driver initiated disengagements do not count as improper usage and are expected from the driver. Keeps hands on the wheel and remain attentive at all times. use of any hand held devices while using Autopilot is not allowed.
Autopilot features can only be removed by this suspension method and they will be unavailable for approximately one week.
2. Over-the-Air (OTA) Recall
In accordance with a recent recall (campaign # 23V-838 for US and # 2023-657 for Canada) Tesla is making the following improvements to Autosteer:
— Improved visibility of driver monitoring warning alerts on the touchscreen by increasing the text size and moving the notifications to a more prominent position (Model 3 & Y only)
— Added option to activate Autopilot with a single stalk press, instead of two, to help simplify activation and disengagement
— Increased strictness of driver attention requirements when using Autosteer and approaching traffic lights and stop signs off highway
— Introduced a suspension policy that will restrict Autosteer for one week if improper usage is detected. Improper usage is when you, or another driver of your vehicle receive five "Forced Autopilot Disengagements"
You are the driver. As the driver you must be vigilant to the road. keep your hands on the wheel, and be ready to intervene to maintain safety.
Note also that this update contains all the changes from the holiday update (2023.44.25)
As such this recall update (2023.44.30) will likely be rolled out to all users as the holiday update for the year.
Tesla has begun rolling out software 2023.44.30, which contains changes from the NHTSA recall, to the U.S. and Canada. All changes from the release notes are listed below.
1. Basic Autopilot Suspension — For max safety and accountability, use of Autopilot features will be suspended if improper usage is detected. Improper usage is when you or another driver receive 5 forced Autopilot disengagements. A disengagement is when the Autopilot system disengages for the rest of the trip after the driver receives several audio and visual warnings for inattentiveness. Driver initiated disengagements do not count as improper usage and are expected from the driver. Keeps hands on the wheel and remain attentive at all times. use of any hand held devices while using Autopilot is not allowed.
Autopilot features can only be removed by this suspension method and they will be unavailable for approximately one week.
2. Over-the-Air (OTA) Recall
In accordance with a recent recall (campaign # 23V-838 for US and # 2023-657 for Canada) Tesla is making the following improvements to Autosteer:
— Improved visibility of driver monitoring warning alerts on the touchscreen by increasing the text size and moving the notifications to a more prominent position (Model 3 & Y only)
— Added option to activate Autopilot with a single stalk press, instead of two, to help simplify activation and disengagement
— Increased strictness of driver attention requirements when using Autosteer and approaching traffic lights and stop signs off highway
— Introduced a suspension policy that will restrict Autosteer for one week if improper usage is detected. Improper usage is when you, or another driver of your vehicle receive five "Forced Autopilot Disengagements"
You are the driver. As the driver you must be vigilant to the road. keep your hands on the wheel, and be ready to intervene to maintain safety.
Note also that this update contains all the changes from the holiday update (2023.44.25)
As such this recall update (2023.44.30) will likely be rolled out to all users as the holiday update for the year.
Making lemonade out of lemons.
Vision only bird eye view capability. (Finally)
Waze like functionality baked into the free navigation software in all Teslas. (Free)
Vision only bird eye view capability. (Finally)
Waze like functionality baked into the free navigation software in all Teslas. (Free)
UPDATE!
Tesla’s recall of 2 million vehicles to fix its Autopilot system uses technology that may not work
BY TOM KRISHER
Updated 4:54 PM EST, December 19, 2023
Share
DETROIT (AP) — Tesla’s recall of more than 2 million of its electric vehicles — an effort to have drivers who use its Autopilot system pay closer attention to the road — relies on technology that research shows may not work as intended.
Tesla, the leading manufacturer of EVs, reluctantly agreed to the recall last week after a two-year investigation by the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that Tesla’s system to monitor drivers was defective and required a fix.
The system sends alerts to drivers if it fails to detect torque from hands on the steering wheel, a system that experts describe as ineffective.
Government documents filed by Tesla say the online software change will increase warnings and alerts to drivers to keep their hands on the steering wheel. It also may limit the areas where the most commonly used versions of Autopilot can be used, though that isn’t entirely clear in Tesla’s documents.
NHTSA began its investigation in 2021, after receiving 11 reports that Teslas that were using the partially automated system crashed into parked emergency vehicles. Since 2016, the agency has sent investigators to at least 35 crashes in which Teslas that were suspected of operating on a partially automated driving system hit parked emergency vehicles, motorcyclists or tractor trailers that crossed in the vehicles’ paths, causing a total of 17 deaths.
But research conducted by NHTSA, the National Transportation Safety Board and other investigators show that merely measuring torque on the steering wheel doesn’t ensure that drivers are paying sufficient attention. Experts say night-vision cameras are needed to watch drivers’ eyes to ensure they’re looking at the road.
“I do have concerns about the solution,” said Jennifer Homendy, the chairwoman of the NTSB, which investigated two fatal Florida crashes involving Teslas on Autopilot in which neither the driver nor the system detected crossing tractor trailers. “The technology, the way it worked, including with steering torque, was not sufficient to keep drivers’ attention, and drivers disengaged.”
In addition, NHTSA’s investigation found that out of 43 crashes it examined with detailed data available, 37 drivers had their hands on the wheel in the final second before their vehicles crashed, indicating that they weren’t paying sufficient attention.
“Humans are poor at monitoring automated systems and intervening when something goes awry,” said Donald Slavik, a lawyer for plaintiffs in three lawsuits against Tesla over Autopilot. “That’s why the human factors studies have shown a significant delayed response under those conditions.”
Missy Cummings, a professor of engineering and computing at George Mason University who studies automated vehicles, said it’s widely accepted by researchers that monitoring hands on the steering wheel is insufficient to ensure a driver’s attention to the road.
“It’s a proxy measure for attention and it’s a poor measure of attention,” she said.
A better solution, experts say, would be to require Tesla to use cameras to monitor drivers’ eyes to make sure they’re watching the road. Some Teslas do have interior-facing cameras. But they don’t see well at night, unlike those in General Motors or Ford driver monitoring systems, said Philip Koopman, a professor at Carnegie Mellon University who studies vehicle automation safety.
Koopman noted that older Teslas lack such cameras.
Tesla’s recall documents say nothing about increased use of cameras. But the company’s software release notes posted on X, formerly Twitter, say that a camera above the rearview mirror can now determine whether a driver is paying attention and trigger alerts if they aren’t. Tesla, which has no media relations department, didn’t answer emailed questions about the release notes or other recall-related issues.
Tesla’s website says that Autopilot and more sophisticated “Full Self Driving” software cannot drive themselves and that drivers must be ready to intervene.
Experts say that although limiting where Autopilot can operate to controlled access highways would help, it’s unclear whether Tesla will do so with its recall.
In the recall documents it filed with NHTSA, Tesla says its basic Autopilot includes systems called Autosteer and Traffic Aware Cruise Control. The documents say that Autosteer is intended for use on controlled access highways and won’t work when a driver activates it under the wrong conditions. The software update, the documents say, will have “additional checks upon engaging Autosteer and while using the feature outside controlled access highways and when approaching traffic controls.”
Cummings noted that doesn’t specifically say Tesla will limit areas where Autopilot can work to limited-access freeways — a concept known as “geofenced.”
“When they say conditions, nowhere does that say geofenced,” she said.
Kelly Funkhouser, associate director of vehicle technology for Consumer Reports, said she was able to use Autopilot on roads that weren’t controlled access highways while testing a Tesla Model S that received the software update. But it’s difficult, she said, to test everything else in the recall because Tesla has been vague on exactly what it’s changing.
Homendy, the chairwoman of the transportation safety board, said she hopes NHTSA has reviewed Tesla’s solution to determine whether it does what the agency intended it to do.
The NTSB, which can make only recommendations, will investigate if it sees a problem with Teslas that received the recall repairs, Homendy said.
Veronica Morales, NHTSA’s communications director, said the agency doesn’t pre-approve recall fixes because federal law puts the burden on the automaker to develop and implement repairs. But she said the agency is keeping its investigation open and will monitor Tesla’s software or hardware fixes to make sure they work by testing them at NHTSA’s research and testing center in Ohio, where it has several Teslas available.
The agency received the software update on its vehicles only a few days ago and has yet to evaluate them, Morales said. The remedy must also address crashes on all roads, including highways, the agency said.
Cummings, a former NHTSA special adviser who is set to be an expert witness for the plaintiff in an upcoming Florida lawsuit against Tesla, said she expects Tesla’s warnings to deter a small number of drivers from abusing Autopilot. But the problems for Tesla, Cummings said, won’t end until it limits where the system can be used and fixes its computer vision system so it better detects obstacles.
apnews.com
Tesla’s recall of 2 million vehicles to fix its Autopilot system uses technology that may not work
BY TOM KRISHER
Updated 4:54 PM EST, December 19, 2023
Share
DETROIT (AP) — Tesla’s recall of more than 2 million of its electric vehicles — an effort to have drivers who use its Autopilot system pay closer attention to the road — relies on technology that research shows may not work as intended.
Tesla, the leading manufacturer of EVs, reluctantly agreed to the recall last week after a two-year investigation by the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that Tesla’s system to monitor drivers was defective and required a fix.
The system sends alerts to drivers if it fails to detect torque from hands on the steering wheel, a system that experts describe as ineffective.
Government documents filed by Tesla say the online software change will increase warnings and alerts to drivers to keep their hands on the steering wheel. It also may limit the areas where the most commonly used versions of Autopilot can be used, though that isn’t entirely clear in Tesla’s documents.
NHTSA began its investigation in 2021, after receiving 11 reports that Teslas that were using the partially automated system crashed into parked emergency vehicles. Since 2016, the agency has sent investigators to at least 35 crashes in which Teslas that were suspected of operating on a partially automated driving system hit parked emergency vehicles, motorcyclists or tractor trailers that crossed in the vehicles’ paths, causing a total of 17 deaths.
But research conducted by NHTSA, the National Transportation Safety Board and other investigators show that merely measuring torque on the steering wheel doesn’t ensure that drivers are paying sufficient attention. Experts say night-vision cameras are needed to watch drivers’ eyes to ensure they’re looking at the road.
“I do have concerns about the solution,” said Jennifer Homendy, the chairwoman of the NTSB, which investigated two fatal Florida crashes involving Teslas on Autopilot in which neither the driver nor the system detected crossing tractor trailers. “The technology, the way it worked, including with steering torque, was not sufficient to keep drivers’ attention, and drivers disengaged.”
In addition, NHTSA’s investigation found that out of 43 crashes it examined with detailed data available, 37 drivers had their hands on the wheel in the final second before their vehicles crashed, indicating that they weren’t paying sufficient attention.
“Humans are poor at monitoring automated systems and intervening when something goes awry,” said Donald Slavik, a lawyer for plaintiffs in three lawsuits against Tesla over Autopilot. “That’s why the human factors studies have shown a significant delayed response under those conditions.”
Missy Cummings, a professor of engineering and computing at George Mason University who studies automated vehicles, said it’s widely accepted by researchers that monitoring hands on the steering wheel is insufficient to ensure a driver’s attention to the road.
“It’s a proxy measure for attention and it’s a poor measure of attention,” she said.
A better solution, experts say, would be to require Tesla to use cameras to monitor drivers’ eyes to make sure they’re watching the road. Some Teslas do have interior-facing cameras. But they don’t see well at night, unlike those in General Motors or Ford driver monitoring systems, said Philip Koopman, a professor at Carnegie Mellon University who studies vehicle automation safety.
Koopman noted that older Teslas lack such cameras.
Tesla’s recall documents say nothing about increased use of cameras. But the company’s software release notes posted on X, formerly Twitter, say that a camera above the rearview mirror can now determine whether a driver is paying attention and trigger alerts if they aren’t. Tesla, which has no media relations department, didn’t answer emailed questions about the release notes or other recall-related issues.
Tesla’s website says that Autopilot and more sophisticated “Full Self Driving” software cannot drive themselves and that drivers must be ready to intervene.
Experts say that although limiting where Autopilot can operate to controlled access highways would help, it’s unclear whether Tesla will do so with its recall.
In the recall documents it filed with NHTSA, Tesla says its basic Autopilot includes systems called Autosteer and Traffic Aware Cruise Control. The documents say that Autosteer is intended for use on controlled access highways and won’t work when a driver activates it under the wrong conditions. The software update, the documents say, will have “additional checks upon engaging Autosteer and while using the feature outside controlled access highways and when approaching traffic controls.”
Cummings noted that doesn’t specifically say Tesla will limit areas where Autopilot can work to limited-access freeways — a concept known as “geofenced.”
“When they say conditions, nowhere does that say geofenced,” she said.
Kelly Funkhouser, associate director of vehicle technology for Consumer Reports, said she was able to use Autopilot on roads that weren’t controlled access highways while testing a Tesla Model S that received the software update. But it’s difficult, she said, to test everything else in the recall because Tesla has been vague on exactly what it’s changing.
Homendy, the chairwoman of the transportation safety board, said she hopes NHTSA has reviewed Tesla’s solution to determine whether it does what the agency intended it to do.
The NTSB, which can make only recommendations, will investigate if it sees a problem with Teslas that received the recall repairs, Homendy said.
Veronica Morales, NHTSA’s communications director, said the agency doesn’t pre-approve recall fixes because federal law puts the burden on the automaker to develop and implement repairs. But she said the agency is keeping its investigation open and will monitor Tesla’s software or hardware fixes to make sure they work by testing them at NHTSA’s research and testing center in Ohio, where it has several Teslas available.
The agency received the software update on its vehicles only a few days ago and has yet to evaluate them, Morales said. The remedy must also address crashes on all roads, including highways, the agency said.
Cummings, a former NHTSA special adviser who is set to be an expert witness for the plaintiff in an upcoming Florida lawsuit against Tesla, said she expects Tesla’s warnings to deter a small number of drivers from abusing Autopilot. But the problems for Tesla, Cummings said, won’t end until it limits where the system can be used and fixes its computer vision system so it better detects obstacles.
Tesla's recall of 2 million vehicles to fix its Autopilot system uses technology that may not work
Tesla’s recall of more than 2 million of its electric vehicles — an effort to have drivers who use its Autopilot system pay closer attention to the road — relies on technology that research shows may not work as intended.
apnews.com
Tesla blamed drivers for failures of parts it long knew were defective
Wheels falling off cars at speed. Suspensions collapsing on brand-new vehicles. Axles breaking under acceleration. Tens of thousands of customers told Tesla about a host of part failures on low-mileage cars. The automaker sought to blame drivers for vehicle ‘abuse,’ but Tesla documents show it had tracked the chronic ‘flaws’ and ‘failures’ for years.
By HYUNJOO JIN, KEVIN KROLICKI, MARIE MANNES and STEVE STECKLOW Filed Dec. 20, 2023, 11 a.m. GMT
Shreyansh Jain was ecstatic in March when he picked up his first electric vehicle, a brand-new 2023 Tesla Model Y. He used a sizable chunk of family savings to buy it with cash.
“We were over the moon!” said Jain, an electronics engineer in Cambridge, England.
His exuberance came to a “grinding halt” one day later, with 115 miles on the odometer, Jain told Reuters. As he drove with his wife and three-year-old daughter, he suddenly lost steering control as he made a slow turn into their neighborhood. The vehicle’s front-right suspension had collapsed, and parts of the car loudly scraped the road as it came to a stop.
“They were absolutely petrified,” Jain said of his wife and daughter. “If we were on a 70-mile-per-hour highway, and this would have happened, that would have been catastrophic.”
The complex repair required nearly 40 hours of labor to rebuild the suspension and replace the steering column, among other fixes, according to a detailed repair estimate. The cost: more than $14,000. Tesla refused to cover the repairs, blaming the accident on “prior” suspension damage.
Jain is one of tens of thousands of Tesla owners who have experienced premature failures of suspension or steering parts, according to a Reuters review of thousands of Tesla documents. The chronic failures, many in relatively new vehicles, date back at least seven years and stretch across Tesla’s model lineup and across the globe, from China to the United States to Europe, according to the records and interviews with more than 20 customers and nine former Tesla managers or service technicians.
Read much, much more:
Oh look here’s a scary anecdote. Don’t bother reading the article that says ~65% were covered under warranty. Do you expect cars companies to cover 100% of problems including customer induced damage? Human beings do lie. You know that right?
Every car company denies warranty claims. Every single one.
my vehicle (not a tesla) has this and i haaaaate it. Ill be cruising along behind someone and eventually i look down at my speed and see i am doing 5 mph under the speed limit.
Now its a pain in the ass to get around because most of the cars coming from behind are on my ass quick and get on over to the passing lane before i can make a move to the passing lane.
I figured out how to disable that real quick
