***Jack Nunge commits to Iowa***

[DanL53]

Thanks for your reply Red87. I did link an article that said Roth participated in Senior Night. (Your error there, first of several) My article was from ESPN and was published 8/27/2012. That very night Matt Roth was interviewed by PEEGS, as reported the next day by Jeff Eisenberg, 8/28/2012 (Your article)

Here's one from 8/26/2012. http://www.hoosiersportsreport.com/2012/08/roth-moving-on/

No disrespect but I'm not going to get into a hyperbolic tit for tat with you. I've found it too hard to get my point across to posters who are already muddying the waters, or not thinking clearly. No doubt you'll be raising your PEEGS article high and saying, "It trumps everything else!!!", for the rest of your days.

You are a good Indiana fan. Good for you.

 

[nu2u]

What Coach McCaffery probably knows is that someone won't play as much as this year as anticipated and will transfer again

How could McCaffery know this in advance? You say he "probably knows". The only way he knows that for certain is if a current player has already told him he will transfer after the up-coming season. Otherwise, it is impossible to know that. Are you suggesting that this is the case? If so, that would be a very strange and maybe unprecedented.

 

[regibson1]

Yes, those are the only 2 coaches who have paid for their sons to go to school so that another player could be given a scholarship.

facepalm.jpeg

Like to draw conclusions? Hypothetical

1. Pitino cheats when recruiting.
2. Calipari cheats when recruiting.
3. I guess that makes two of them (Pitino and Calipari) that are willing to cheat when recruiting.

Conclusion: Pitino and Calipari are the only coaches In College Basketball that are willing to cheat when recruiting.

 

[regibson1]

But Regibson1 thinks he deserves a scholarship. No athlete's mentality or end goal is to get a scholarship. Their goal is to play basketball at the highest level and that happens to come with a scholarship. Fran is the one making a "sacrifice" and even that is minimal compared to what he can get in return. Regi can't seem to grasp the concept though.

Well then why give out scholarships? We can get athletes by just offering them a walk on to Iowa since they want to play basketball at the highest level and that is their ultimate goal. They don't want a scholarship so that they can pay their own way without the help of mommy and daddy.

Let's rehire Lickliter again since he seems to agree with this poster. His son was a walk on and we fielded a team (although we couldn't even scrimmage 5 on 5).

 

[nu2u]

Coaches know their guys. They know who is disgruntled, who is a transfer candidate. They also know who is good enough to play and who isn't. And, they communicate that to guys who may better fits in other places. Fran is wisely playing the percentages.

Are you saying he has told a current roster player that he should transfer after the season? I think that we both agree that that would be absurd.

You also state that Fran is "playing the percentages". What if the so-called "percentages" don't play out? What if none of the players want to transfer after the upcoming season? Is it your position that Fran would terminate the scholarship of one of the players?

My impression is that McCaffery is a coach with very high ethical standards. I find it hard to believe that Fran would involuntarily yank an academic scholarship for any player on the roster who wanted to stay and would be very surprised if he did so.

Also, Fran does not impress me as a coach who leaves important matters (like NCAA imposed scholarship limit) to chance by playing percentages and hoping that an uncertain outcome does not materialize.

 

[Ronman]

Ran across this article when I was at the hospital with my son today. Sounds very promising.

http://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sp...ge-castle-luke-garza-fran-mccaffery/90298510/

And sorry, Red....There is a reason that fans of other schools call it "Creaning." That just didn't come out of nowhere, did it?

 

[DanL53]

Dan, are you capable of objective debate? Just curious. Roth refuted, and gas multiple times, the notion he was blindsided or treated poorly. He's a regular back in Bloomington and around the program. I guess I'm not sure why you refuse to see a situation for what it is, rather than how you willfully, and clearly incorrectly, view it.

Sure, Red87, let me demonstrate how I can keep the waters crystal clear in a discussion. Three articles we've already linked:

http://www.hoosiersportsreport.com/2012/08/roth-moving-on/
http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/63328/ius-matt-roth-odd-man-out
(http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab...rean-decision-not-renew-143015529--ncaab.html).

Now, you say the third article repudiates/refutes the first two.

Repudiates: Refuse to accept or be associated with.
Refute: Prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false, disprove.

In my opinion Roth puts a decent spin on his earlier comments, paints a different picture, but I see no denial that he said what he said. I see a longer explanation which becomes cumbersome and awkward.

You've repeatedly mentioned other articles? Let's see them. Where is this article where Roth refutes everything Brennan wrote?

I'll put forward one Hypothesis. One opinion. And you can easily prove me wrong by linking what you say you have. I believe Roth put a softer spin on his circumstances precisely because a day after the first interview he realized he was biting the hand that could, in certain different ways, continue to feed him.

 

[DanL53]

Great article Ronman! Thanks. Sure is weird how the evaluations showed up right after Nunge's commitment. I mean, I've seen that before with Iowa commits and it's almost like somebody says, "We gotta say something! Let's be safe and say he's a three star."

No problem though....ratings are fun but for some weird reason our best guys under McCaffery have been three star players.

 

[DanL53]

Dan, you surely aren't this obtuse in real life. The Peegs interview, written as you note right after the Brennan article, was published in effect as a "refutation" (I never mentioned repudiates) of Brennan. The article directly states that Roth refutes the notions brought up in Brennan's article. Brennan said Roth was in the dark; Roth specifically states he was not and that he knew the entire situation. That's a direct application of the definition you graciously cited for us.

Again, where is this article that refutes everything Brennan wrote?

I see several quotes in three articles. I don't see a single, "That's not what I said". You said you had another article, where is it? Again, crystal clear communication. No "in effect" or quoted, "refutation". The article directly states that Roth refutes the "notions"? What about the quotes from Roth himself?

 

[Ronman]

Fran may be the most scrupulous coach out there (here's a hint: he's not), and that has no bearing on whether he would suggest a kid would be better somewhere else.

Love the innuendo. Yeah, OK, maybe McCaffery isn't the most scrupulous coach in the country, but at least he doesn't have a practice with a severely negative connotation named after him as yours does.

 

[nu2u]

I'm saying Fran, like 99.9% of coaches, has open and frank talks with players, informing them on where they stand in the pecking order going forward. He's not oblivious to who can't handle those conversations. He's also a smart guy who knows when to make calculated decisions like oversigning. Again, I bet he signs one more. Nothing unethical about that. People talk about the "transfer epidemic" in college bball; they often don't discuss the fact that coaches are as likely as ever to help end of bench guys, that may be disgruntled or simply aren't good enough, transfer.

One of our former players played mid-major DI. After his freshman year, he and two others were told to basically leave because they weren't cutting it and the coach had better guys signed. Our guy stuck it out and wound up playing in the NCAA tourney and was all conference as a senior. Other two kids left. His was not an uncommon scenario. Fran may be the most scrupulous coach out there (here's a hint: he's not), and that has no bearing on whether he would suggest a kid would be better somewhere else.

Yeah well you dodged the question - do you believe that Fran would involuntarily terminate the scholarship of a current player who did not want to transfer?

 

[DanL53]

Dan, again, you play the obtuse obstinate well. The article I cited states exactly what you are asking. Because it isn't verbatim how you wish it to read, doesn't mean it doesn't say these exact points. This isn't hard. I understand you don't want to live in a world where Fran McCaffery shares the same ethical sphere as Tom Crean. But, reality exists, whether you wish it so or not.

That water looks murky. Here's why. You specifically mentioned another article. Now you won't provide it. Obtuse Obstinate was cool, but I was once call an optimistic boo bird and that still takes the cake. Thanks for the conversation.

 

[nu2u]

He can't legally terminate a scholarship obviously.

FYI coaches can legally terminate a scholarship for several reasons under Bylaw 15.3.4.2

What we are discussing is non-renewal of a scholarship

Yes, I think he would, and probably has, tell a player he should leave

A coach telling a player he should leave is different than a player voluntarily electing to transfer. It is essentially an attempt to force a transfer since the player is not electing to do so on his own initiative.

My question is this: after talking to the player and recommending the he leave, do you believe that McCaffery would subsequently take action to cancel (not renew) the player's scholarship if the player does not voluntarily leave the program?

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

Dan, again, you play the obtuse obstinate well. The article I cited states exactly what you are asking. Because it isn't verbatim how you wish it to read, doesn't mean it doesn't say these exact points. This isn't hard. I understand you don't want to live in a world where Fran McCaffery shares the same ethical sphere as Tom Crean. But, reality exists, whether you wish it so or not.

There is a huge difference between creaning every year like Tan Tommy, and programs, like Iowa and Michigan, which are as likely to undersign as oversign.

 

[Kurt Warner]

Tan Tommy, lol, that's golden

 

[2432Hawk]

What the hell? Fran already knows Connor is walking on. 1 down. Dale Jones, yes he filed paper work and is granted a 6th year, but he's yet to be cleared medically and he may never be? That filing helps Dale with other educational opportunities outside of basketball.

Heck, I think we end up with 1 more free by May of 2018, and bank it for that following class.

 

[perryhawk]

This is just conversation...I'm not advocating for this, or even predicting it will happen, but this is a thought that has crossed my mind.

Dom has waited his turn. He is long, tall, and athletic. He has some really good ball handling skills.......but does not appear to be assertive or aggressive on a consistent basis. I'm not here to pretend that is an easy task if it doesn't come naturally.

So, I wonder and will be watching to see if any of the young guys pass him by in terms of playing time, etc.....if that happens and he gets discouraged I could see him as a potential transfer. Is he, or is this the most likely scenario for a transfer? No, it's just a thought.

 

[amahawk]

Are you saying he has told a current roster player that he should transfer after the season? I think that we both agree that that would be absurd.

You also state that Fran is "playing the percentages". What if the so-called "percentages" don't play out? What if none of the players want to transfer after the upcoming season? Is it your position that Fran would terminate the scholarship of one of the players?

My impression is that McCaffery is a coach with very high ethical standards. I find it hard to believe that Fran would involuntarily yank an academic scholarship for any player on the roster who wanted to stay and would be very surprised if he did so.

Also, Fran does not impress me as a coach who leaves important matters (like NCAA imposed scholarship limit) to chance by playing percentages and hoping that an uncertain outcome does not materialize.

I wonder if Garza or Nunge redshirts their first year?

 

[seer_hawk]

I wonder if Garza or Nunge redshirts their first year?

We are well stocked with forwards, and Nunge is almost Uthoff skinny. I wouldn't be surprised to see him redshirt.

 

[iabcuda]

Garza looks like he will be ready for the Big 10 banging by next year. Nunge we won't know about until next summer when the best talent evaluation system comes to town - the PTL.

 

[HawkLogic]

Dan, are you capable of objective debate? Just curious. Roth refuted, and gas multiple times, the notion he was blindsided or treated poorly. He's a regular back in Bloomington and around the program. I guess I'm not sure why you refuse to see a situation for what it is, rather than how you willfully, and clearly incorrectly, view it.

oversigning and running off players is sign of program that is taking advantage of NCAA rules. Indiana is known for that right now. Legal, so you only have to live with knowing your program is tainted, which is much better than sucking.

 

[DodgerHawki]

What the hell? Fran already knows Connor is walking on. 1 down. Dale Jones, yes he filed paper work and is granted a 6th year, but he's yet to be cleared medically and he may never be? That filing helps Dale with other educational opportunities outside of basketball.

Heck, I think we end up with 1 more free by May of 2018, and bank it for that following class.

This is exactly right. Dale Jones has been cleared for a 6th year of eligibility, but Iowa is under no obligation to bring him back for a 6th year. We're not even sure that he will be able to play this year, as he didn't play in the PTL. The 6th year of eligibility gives him options for the year after this one. People wringing their hands over this stuff is nonsense. Fran wouldn't have offered Nunge and Garza if he didn't know 100% for sure that there would be scholarships.

 

[CanadaHawk]

We are well stocked with forwards, and Nunge is almost Uthoff skinny. I wouldn't be surprised to see him redshirt.

If he doesn't gain weight in a hurry, Nunge could end up RSing. However, his frame is built to take weight more than JU's. Nunge will NOT be a 210lb senior.

 

[hawkfan1963]

Fran wouldn't have offered Nunge and Garza if he didn't know 100% for sure that there would be scholarships.

Exactly

 

[DodgerHawki]

oversigning and running off players is sign of program that is taking advantage of NCAA rules. Indiana is known for that right now. Legal, so you only have to live with knowing your program is tainted, which is much better than sucking.

Good grief. Do you think any Indiana fan gives two craps whether or not their program is "tainted" by Crean moving guys on who were buried on the depth chart? Does that make their program "tainted"? Or do you think ISU fans care that Hoiberg returned them to success by recruiting transfers? There is nothing wrong with a coach having a frank conversation with a guy at the end of the bench, telling him that he doesn't envision him ever playing meaningful minutes. Fran had the chance to get Nunge and Garza to improve the roster, glad he did it.

 

[BBHawk]

Back to the commitment. Nunge really reminds me of Jon Leuer, former WI player. Just needs to add muscle like Leuer did in his first 2 years.

 

[seer_hawk]

Good grief. Do you think any Indiana fan gives two craps whether or not their program is "tainted" by Crean moving guys on who were buried on the depth chart? Does that make their program "tainted"? Or do you think ISU fans care that Hoiberg returned them to success by recruiting transfers? There is nothing wrong with a coach having a frank conversation with a guy at the end of the bench, telling him that he doesn't envision him ever playing meaningful minutes. Fran had the chance to get Nunge and Garza to improve the roster, glad he did it.

IMO there's a huge difference having a frank conversation, at the end of the season, when you are with or without a scholarship for the player at the end of the bench. That said I don't believe Fran put himself in the position to force someone to leave, contrary to the B1G 4 year scholarship rule. As we both stated, I think Jones' 6th season was the wildcard Fran used to give out the 2nd extra scholarship. If someone doesn't voluntarily transfer Jones will have to make himself a grad transfer.

 

[hawk-i bob]

Yes, I think he would, and probably has, tell a player he should leave. He can't legally terminate a scholarship obviously.

you make assertions out of your back side. you don't know the conversations that Fran McCaffery has had or not had with his players...you also don't know he 'probably has told a player' he should leave. You have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever that he has done so.

Your whole premise is since your boy does .. then everyone else does. Lame.

Fran said he is aware of the scholarship situation & is confident it will work out. That doesn't mean he has already told player XYZ something like.....hey I realize you are still on the team but you will need to transfer next spring since I need your scholarship for Nunge.

None of us know how this will workout...we are all speculating. Here is one for you...maybe Fran mentioned to Dr. Nunge that he was out of a scholarship for his son & the good doctor said...well if we need to pay the 1st year for Jack..we can do that. Jack just wants to play for you coach.

I know very little...but I'm pretty confident that Fran has NOT told any current 2016-2017 scholarship he should leave next spring ... especially prior to the start of fall practice. That's BS... doesn't mean come spring & after the season is over he wont have (as he always does) a honest evaluation session with each & every player.

 

[Ronman]

I believe if Jones would come back for a sixth year, he would be 24 that December. If he is healthy, he might decide it is time to move on and see if he can play professionally.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

I should have added, as I overrated some inferrential skills, Fran has suggested someone leave "at some point in his tenure." I can guarantee that has happened. My premise is I understand the realities of college basketball and don't exist in a mythical world of fictional narratives.

You want to equate Fran and other coaches with Tan Tommy with regard to how they manage scholarships. That clearly is a mythical world of fictional narratives if you believe that to be reality. Since Tommy's annual creaning has worked to IU's advantage in allowing an influx of very talented players, it is great for those IU fans who only care about winning.

 

[hawk-i bob]

I should have added, as I overrated some inferrential skills, Fran has suggested someone leave "at some point in his tenure." I can guarantee that has happened. My premise is I understand the realities of college basketball and don't exist in a mythical world of fictional narratives.

you cant guarantee jack. you know nothing of what Fran has said or not said to anyone currently on the roster...all you have is what your boy has done in the past which is what you are using as your reality of college basketball. Your premise of what Fran has said to anyone about transferring next spring is a total fictional narrative. You should really stop posting about Iowa basketball and stick with your own kind.

 

[seer_hawk]

You want to equate Fran and other coaches with Tan Tommy with regard to how they manage scholarships. That clearly is a mythical world of fictional narratives if you believe that to be reality. Since Tommy's annual creaning has worked to IU's advantage in allowing an influx of very talented players, it is great for those IU fans who only care about winning.

Crean has 2 B1G Championships, but also a bunch of pedestrian B1G finishes. I agree though that it does give an advantage to coaches that freely over recruit.

 

[amahawk]

Coaches know their guys. They know who is disgruntled, who is a transfer candidate. They also know who is good enough to play and who isn't. And, they communicate that to guys who may better fits in other places. Fran is wisely playing the percentages.

Yep, Fran will figure it out.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

Crean has 2 B1G Championships, but also a bunch of pedestrian B1G finishes. I agree though that it does give an advantage to coaches that freely over recruit.

I didn't say that I thought Crean was a good bench coach, but creaning clearly gives him a lot of talent to work with. I was impressed with IU's play last year, but they have often underachieved under Crean.

 

[CanadaHawk]

I didn't say that I thought Crean was a good bench coach, but creaning clearly gives him a lot of talent to work with. I was impressed with IU's play last year, but they have often underachieved under Crean.

Still think Yogi Ferrell saved Crean's butt last year. Interested to see what he does without him.