Jon Miller podcast nailed the minutes issue today. Big problem.
- Thread starter terrehawk
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I think people are somewhat stuck in the past concerning this topic. The Iowa basketball program is moving back up into a higher tier. One thing people are going to have to get used to, is seeing good quality players as backups or less. At the best programs four and sometimes five star talent go through this. This isn't something to fear, it's not a new or unique situation in college basketball. This represents good change for the Iowa program, the level of competition has risen and so will the level of success.
In closing, don't despair....
In closing, don't despair....
Here's how UK/Calipari solved delegating minutes:
"Calipari has opted for platoons. One five-man unit starts the game. Then another five-man unit relieves the starters. The units rotate in and out of the game at about every television timeout. Ten players each play about 20 minutes. Two other players will fill any gaps".
I am not endorsing as I am not a D1 coach, but it appears while not to be the end all and my not work all for Fran, but at least it is another option to consider on how a HOF coach deals with minutes. Or, maybe there's a modified version of platooning????
"Calipari has opted for platoons. One five-man unit starts the game. Then another five-man unit relieves the starters. The units rotate in and out of the game at about every television timeout. Ten players each play about 20 minutes. Two other players will fill any gaps".
I am not endorsing as I am not a D1 coach, but it appears while not to be the end all and my not work all for Fran, but at least it is another option to consider on how a HOF coach deals with minutes. Or, maybe there's a modified version of platooning????
Agreed. Say we go 15-3 in the B1G, for our first outright Big Ten title since--i'm not even sure when. Every player on the team will be forever known for putting Iowa basketball back into the elite tier, where we have not been since the mid to late 80s. That alone could overcome some of the minutes issues. Every great team has guys that don't play much, in every sport. They earn their place in practice, making the elite players better each and every day.
Sedge
While deep, I think your drop off is too big at PG to run a full platoon situation, but may work at other positions. When I saw Calipari do that at Kentucky, he had Ulis coming off the bench.
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I think nick and nunge split the three, j bo and Williams the 1, moss Ellingston, the two, cook and pen the 4, luka , Wagner and Ryan the 5
Not sure what the problem is. The better players will see more floor time and will most likely opt to stay in the program. The ones that don't (or can't) produce, will sit and may transfer opening up more scholarships. Big time athletics is a cold business for all involved.
So you dont think getting Nunge was a good move?
Because it clearly was, and clearly Fran thought so.
Fran needed the extra room to recruit a younger player who will push others further down the bench.
Whether you have 12 or 20 players its not going to change how many actually play on the court, its going to change how you can offer scholorships.
Im not sure the writing is there untill after this season. As of now Joks minuets are up for grabs.
It will become apparent as this season goes on who is part of the future and who isnt.
Honestly it probably would have been beneficial if we had had a few more end of the bench guys leave sooner.
The ones weve had leave have made room for better players.
With a full roster you kind of need a transfer or two on a yearly basis, it allows you to replenish the roster mor effectively.
So you didn't know that Connor is redshirting? But having 15 or 20 players on the team, 5-10 that won't play doesn't keep players happy.
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Some positives, the depth should help Iowa improve the D. That was really the limiting factor last year. Also, guys that can drive and create will really help this team, plenty of shooter. Fran also can build units to play fast and play slow. These problems are richman problems. I also see some challenges in style, the reality is the flexibility of this roster will also make Iowa tougher to prepare for. It should be a really fun team to watch but the minutes may look nothing like they do on the summer trip. My big hope is for Cook to really improve on D and handling the ball, Williams to find a little O and confidence and Moss to have a selfish scorers mentality. I also think Dom will be a solid contributor this year in his last go round.
Too many good bigs is a good problem to have. I don't think anyone reshirts. Practices get tougher; the game gets faster; defense gets tougher. As the year goes on, some kids start to lose minutes and one or two will transfer. With Connor and Joe coming in next year (and they both will definitely be top ten rotation kids), best bet to transfer has been mentioned above--the guards who see their minutes fall.
There were seasons during the Alford and Lickliter years where the Hawks barely had enough scholly players to start 5. Too much depth is a problem with which we should be able to live.
The real issue is not that we have 13 starters on the roster. Kentucky has 10 4 & 5 star guys on their roster. That's a whole different ball game.
What we have is a clear 5-7 guys who are starter material and then another 6 guys who can be good quality role players capable of making a spot start or two out of need. The real problem is we like all of these guys and want them all to succeed and help the team win games. That's not going to happen because the reality is we know Fran cannot possibly find minutes for more than 8-9. You cannot play 13 guys consistently and win games. Millers laying out the case for what we already know.
Last no one is going to redshirt because it takes away from their option to leave for a better PT situation. The only reason to RS is academics, injury or Connors unique situation.
What we have is a clear 5-7 guys who are starter material and then another 6 guys who can be good quality role players capable of making a spot start or two out of need. The real problem is we like all of these guys and want them all to succeed and help the team win games. That's not going to happen because the reality is we know Fran cannot possibly find minutes for more than 8-9. You cannot play 13 guys consistently and win games. Millers laying out the case for what we already know.
Last no one is going to redshirt because it takes away from their option to leave for a better PT situation. The only reason to RS is academics, injury or Connors unique situation.
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What does Connor redshirting have to do with anything?
Clearly Fran made the choice to exercise his option to bring in an extra player.
It wasn't because he going to play 13 or 14 players it was because this player is better than what he had and/or he will be very valuable in the future.
11 - whatever doesnt really matter. Thats what everyone is saying in this thread isnt it?
Yes, they'll leave if they're buried on the depth chart, which opens up another opportunity to land a biger fish.
Last season four Big Ten teams played ten guys more than 10 mpg. And one played eleven guys more than 10 mpg.
The main reason, injuries.
Averages don't tell the whole story.
Are those figures based on minutes in conference play only or are they comprised of all games like the Savannah State's where it's possible to play everyone including walk-ons?
The coaches have a nice mix of players available currently and on the way. In the perfect world, maybe we would have one more PG, in place of one of the 4/5s. That makes recruiting 1 or 2 PGs in the next couple of classes a priority.
An interesting dilemma could be whether we should hope Uhl earns significant minutes. I am confident that Fran will put the best guys on the court, but if Uhl consistently plays more than 10 mpg or so, will that increase the likelihood that one of the young guys could get frustrated and leave?
Competition is good.
An interesting dilemma could be whether we should hope Uhl earns significant minutes. I am confident that Fran will put the best guys on the court, but if Uhl consistently plays more than 10 mpg or so, will that increase the likelihood that one of the young guys could get frustrated and leave?
Competition is good.
This is the right summary. Iowa does not have Kentucky talent to just go to platoon system and win consistently that way. You are correct in that all the players appear likable enough and each segment of the fan base latches on to certain guys and thinks they should be playing. It will all get sorted out through the play of the players and injuries. No one will redshirt unless there is an injury, as it will leave options for the player if he wants to leave after the year. The only way there is a problem is if the team isn't winning and guys become more concerned about who's playing/not playing than the winning. But that didn't seem to be an issue last year, and I wouldn't think it would be this year.
You might be correct but, I'm not certain that there is a clear delineation up through about 9 or 10 players.
I think Iowa does have the talent for a platoon system. The key is that platoon 1 and platoon 2 are completely different offensively and defensively. This would make Iowa really tough to prepare for as well.
For instance, platoon 1 in my scenario would be the "half-court offense" team of 7 people. I have Cook and Pemsl interchangeable at the 4 and Kreiner and Garza interchangeable at the 5. Slow down, inside-out game where the offense runs through Cook or Pemsl down on the post (depending on whom is having a great night or not in foul trouble). When stymied while trying to get to the rim, you kick out to great shooters: JBo at the point, and Moss at the 2 and Ellingson at the 3.
Platoon 2 is the high energy, Tom Davis-style run and gun unit who traps you all over the court and gets you to speed way the hell up after your team has been used to playing a slower, deliberate game. Speedy gazelles with wingspan and effort as their middle name: Baer! CW and Dailey as the point and wings on the press, Wagner, with his quick first step to anticipate the pass and intercept in the middle and Nunge deep to protect the rim (Uhl an interchangeable part). 5 minutes of hell at a time. If the offense doesn't get a quick score, you run the offense through Nunge for post play, who, if he can't score in the post, kicks out to guys that are not necessarily waiting to bomb the 3, but are slashing to the basket and attacking the rim. (I think CW and Wagner excel at this). Baer and Dailey can also hit the 3 in this scenario. Again, the chief weapon is the trap and short bursts of high energy. Hopefully lots of turnovers and run-out dunks. Come to think of it, maybe Moss belongs here(?)
Platoon back in for your bruising half court team and repeat. Keep the other team off-balance.
We get everybody their minutes and take advantage of each of their unique strengths.
Just a thought.
For instance, platoon 1 in my scenario would be the "half-court offense" team of 7 people. I have Cook and Pemsl interchangeable at the 4 and Kreiner and Garza interchangeable at the 5. Slow down, inside-out game where the offense runs through Cook or Pemsl down on the post (depending on whom is having a great night or not in foul trouble). When stymied while trying to get to the rim, you kick out to great shooters: JBo at the point, and Moss at the 2 and Ellingson at the 3.
Platoon 2 is the high energy, Tom Davis-style run and gun unit who traps you all over the court and gets you to speed way the hell up after your team has been used to playing a slower, deliberate game. Speedy gazelles with wingspan and effort as their middle name: Baer! CW and Dailey as the point and wings on the press, Wagner, with his quick first step to anticipate the pass and intercept in the middle and Nunge deep to protect the rim (Uhl an interchangeable part). 5 minutes of hell at a time. If the offense doesn't get a quick score, you run the offense through Nunge for post play, who, if he can't score in the post, kicks out to guys that are not necessarily waiting to bomb the 3, but are slashing to the basket and attacking the rim. (I think CW and Wagner excel at this). Baer and Dailey can also hit the 3 in this scenario. Again, the chief weapon is the trap and short bursts of high energy. Hopefully lots of turnovers and run-out dunks. Come to think of it, maybe Moss belongs here(?)
Platoon back in for your bruising half court team and repeat. Keep the other team off-balance.
We get everybody their minutes and take advantage of each of their unique strengths.
Just a thought.
If Uhl learned how to finish drives, he will be a major contributor.
Iowa goes where Bohannon takes us. Hopefully, he will not be too cocky this year after stellar freshman season. He needs to keep that hunger going.
Nunge and Luka will be great Hawkeyes. I see no problem with having 13 good players. Let the best players win most playing times. Very simple. Transfers are part of good teams with good talent.
Iowa goes where Bohannon takes us. Hopefully, he will not be too cocky this year after stellar freshman season. He needs to keep that hunger going.
Nunge and Luka will be great Hawkeyes. I see no problem with having 13 good players. Let the best players win most playing times. Very simple. Transfers are part of good teams with good talent.
Think fans of the top teams worry about this? Fran's job is to play the guys who win games. Sure, some may leave, but that opens up spots for new talent.
Agreed. Honestly, this is a team that made the NIT last year, and now we're worried about "too many good players"? C'mon people!
The least of Fran's and Iowa's problems is having too many good players.
Teams with those kinds of "issues" win or seriously contend for Conference Titles and make some noise in the NCAA Tournament, two things Iowa didn't do last year, and Michael Jordan and Patrick Ewing didn't just join the Hawks.
Reality is a bummer sometimes, we'll see what our reality is in a few months time.
Minutes might be hard to come by but every game is a new situation. Fran will play experience and whomever has the hot hand. Players will struggle especially young players and defensive mismatches sometimes also require rotating players. The starters will get minutes and maybe one or two other players will see consistency from game to game but I'm guessing once you get to that 8th guy and beyond minutes could vary drastically from game to game depending on the situation, especially if one or more of the starters get into foul trouble. The minutes will work themselves out.
I agree that Uhl is going to likely lose a lot of minutes. As much as I like his hustle, I also could see Wagner losing some minutes going forward; he's very athletic but he reminds me of a Zach McCabe who can't shoot the 3. He is too small to be a true PF but not enough of a quick scorer/shooter to play SF. I could see him coming in to give us some good defensive minutes but the issue is with him in, we are going to get marginal scoring from the 3.
The overall issue with minutes isn't so much as giving lots of guys minutes as it is about WHEN those minutes come. To me, you use most of your sub minutes between the 14 minute timeout and the 8 minute timeout. You have some subs in until the 4 minute timeout but under 4 minutes, you go to your top 5 for the night to close out the game. Part of accomplishing this though is having that gameplan in mind so that your top 5 are all ready to go hard those last 4 minutes to close out the game.
Finally, my biggest concern is at PG. I am not a believer in Williams' ability to lead the team when Bohannon needs a breather. He has greatly improved his defense but I remember multiple occasions when the offense stalled with him at the Point and Fran had to take a timeout or scream for another guard to go get the ball and set things up for him. Not saying it's going to happen but it wouldn't shock me at all if Connor burns the redshirt and is playing by the end of the season.
The overall issue with minutes isn't so much as giving lots of guys minutes as it is about WHEN those minutes come. To me, you use most of your sub minutes between the 14 minute timeout and the 8 minute timeout. You have some subs in until the 4 minute timeout but under 4 minutes, you go to your top 5 for the night to close out the game. Part of accomplishing this though is having that gameplan in mind so that your top 5 are all ready to go hard those last 4 minutes to close out the game.
Finally, my biggest concern is at PG. I am not a believer in Williams' ability to lead the team when Bohannon needs a breather. He has greatly improved his defense but I remember multiple occasions when the offense stalled with him at the Point and Fran had to take a timeout or scream for another guard to go get the ball and set things up for him. Not saying it's going to happen but it wouldn't shock me at all if Connor burns the redshirt and is playing by the end of the season.
I don't think Nunge is going to play much. I think Uhl is going to play more than y'all think. Pemsl's minutes will most likely decrease.
It's going to be a battle for 3,4, and 5 to get on the floor. That's a good thing. I wouldn't fret over people being unhappy or this being bad for the team.
It's going to be a battle for 3,4, and 5 to get on the floor. That's a good thing. I wouldn't fret over people being unhappy or this being bad for the team.
If Nunge isnt going to beat out Uhl and Wagner he should redshirt.
And im not a fan of redshirting but his upside is to good to waste
Didn't read the whole thread, but want to offer my thoughts anyway. Addressing the glut of wings/small forwards (3 and 4) especially:
1. Baer doesn't need 25 minutes, and certainly doesn't need 25 minutes to be "happy". Baer is best when his minutes are in the 18 to 20 range, where he can play full tilt for 4 minute stretches then catch a blow.
2. Wagner, similar to Baer, but even less minutes. 12-15 minutes. Play hard, rebound, get Iowa some extra possessions on the offensive boards.
3. Nunge is a freshman, minutes will be up and down. Sure, he looks ready to be a key contributor, but he is a freshman. We’ll see. If dividing up minutes becomes a huge problem, I think it means Nunge is playing very, very well. I’m guessing 8-10 minutes per game.
4. Pemsl. Who knows. I love what he brings, but he needs to be healthy. He’s one of those guys, as far as I can tell, who is a great teammate even if he’s redshirting. My gut tells me he’ll redshirt, that he’s not planning on it because he wants to play, but I suspect there have been conversations about redshirting to get his body 100% right.
5. Uhl. Who knows. 8-10 minutes a game is what I expect. He’s a senior, has done some good things, and does some little things that many don’t see.
6. Cook. 22-25 minutes. How many minutes did Ed Horton average? He split with Kent Hill, Lorenzen, others, and he was All-B1G. Plus Cook can eat up some of the 5 spot minutes if Garza acts freshman-like, or just for matchup purposes, foul trouble circumstances, whatever.
Two spots, ≈ 80 minutes to divvy out. I think I’m safely within 80 minutes even adding all the higher-end estimates.
Yes, Iowa has a lot of guys who can contribute, but even the key contributors are not 35-minutes-per-game type of players. The last time I felt like Iowa had this many guys was Raveling’s last team, Dr. Tom’s first two teams. It worked, and that first Dr. Tom team had, what, 8 pros on it?
It’ll be okay.
1. Baer doesn't need 25 minutes, and certainly doesn't need 25 minutes to be "happy". Baer is best when his minutes are in the 18 to 20 range, where he can play full tilt for 4 minute stretches then catch a blow.
2. Wagner, similar to Baer, but even less minutes. 12-15 minutes. Play hard, rebound, get Iowa some extra possessions on the offensive boards.
3. Nunge is a freshman, minutes will be up and down. Sure, he looks ready to be a key contributor, but he is a freshman. We’ll see. If dividing up minutes becomes a huge problem, I think it means Nunge is playing very, very well. I’m guessing 8-10 minutes per game.
4. Pemsl. Who knows. I love what he brings, but he needs to be healthy. He’s one of those guys, as far as I can tell, who is a great teammate even if he’s redshirting. My gut tells me he’ll redshirt, that he’s not planning on it because he wants to play, but I suspect there have been conversations about redshirting to get his body 100% right.
5. Uhl. Who knows. 8-10 minutes a game is what I expect. He’s a senior, has done some good things, and does some little things that many don’t see.
6. Cook. 22-25 minutes. How many minutes did Ed Horton average? He split with Kent Hill, Lorenzen, others, and he was All-B1G. Plus Cook can eat up some of the 5 spot minutes if Garza acts freshman-like, or just for matchup purposes, foul trouble circumstances, whatever.
Two spots, ≈ 80 minutes to divvy out. I think I’m safely within 80 minutes even adding all the higher-end estimates.
Yes, Iowa has a lot of guys who can contribute, but even the key contributors are not 35-minutes-per-game type of players. The last time I felt like Iowa had this many guys was Raveling’s last team, Dr. Tom’s first two teams. It worked, and that first Dr. Tom team had, what, 8 pros on it?
It’ll be okay.
This is absolutely not a "big problem". This is a wonderful result of some good recruiting and having players that want to stay at Iowa. I don't want guys to leave the program, but I'm not going to worry about it.
For years the fans have been begging for this, and now it's a problem? I swear, one day the Hawks will somehow end up with 3 Elite PG's, and somebody will call it a "problem".
For years the fans have been begging for this, and now it's a problem? I swear, one day the Hawks will somehow end up with 3 Elite PG's, and somebody will call it a "problem".
The perception is that depth management contributed to the questionable finish of RDM's senior year team. There were other factors involved but that's how I think some see it.
I was thinking his sophomore and junior years when the team was deeper. I'm pretty sure those years, splitting with Hill, Lorenzen, even to some degree Lohaus, Horton's minutes were right around 20 mpg.
