Ken Burns: Being American means reckoning with our violent history

[cigaretteman]

I’ve been making films about American history for more than 40 years. In all of those years, there’s something central that I’ve learned about being an American: Veneration and shame often go hand-in-hand.
Today, however, I fear patriotism is presented as a false choice. It seems that for many, to be patriotic is to remember and celebrate only our nation’s triumphs. To choose otherwise, to choose to remember our failings, is thus somehow anti-American.
But it is not so simple.
When the National Parks Service opened its 391st unit — the Sand Creek Massacre National Historic Site — the site became the first and only to include the word “massacre” in the title, a reminder of the Nov. 29, 1864, attack on Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho people that was misrepresented as a “battle” for nearly a century. In the video above, I reflect on the legacy and contemporary resonance of this massacre.



Being an American means reckoning with a history fraught with violence and injustice. Ignoring that reality in favor of mythology is not only wrong but also dangerous. The dark chapters of American history have just as much to teach us, if not more, than the glorious ones, and often the two are intertwined.

As some question how to teach American history to our children — and even question the history itself — I urge us to confront the hard truth, and to trust our children with it. Because a truly great nation is one that can acknowledge its failures.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/11/22/ken-burns-sand-creek-massacre-america-violent-history/

 

[z_ape]

And the good news is that America is doing better than ever before at this, and has been steadily improving for a while.

 

[JRHawk2003]

American? Western....

It didn't start in 1776

Think of the hordes coming across the Asian Steppe....one after the other for several years...wars, then more wars. The Western Way.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret.



Every country has a bloody past..

 

[Jerome Silberman]

And the good news is that America is doing better than ever before at this, and has been steadily improving for a while.

You're right, but it would be a lot cooler if it didn't cause such consternation among some of our countrymen. The screeching has reached a fever-pitch, and it's beyond annoying.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret.



Every country has a bloody past..

Is there more to your thought here, or is this it?

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

Is there more to your thought here, or is this it?

Ya get what ya pay for.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Some might think injecting plutonium into people with Down's Syndrome is wrong....

 

[strummingram]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret.



Every country has a bloody past..

Ken Burns is referring to being an American. Being Norwegian, or Bangladeshi, or Sri Lankan is someone else's job.

 

[Titanhawk2]

Is there more to your thought here, or is this it?

Meaning whatever the original thought for Mr. Burns, it isn't uniquely American, nor is it close to being the worst ever anywhere. But in the past 5 years, we seem to want to make it out that way

 

[JRHawk2003]

Meaning whatever the original thought for Mr. Burns, it isn't uniquely American, nor is it close to being the worst ever anywhere. But in the past 5 years, we seem to want to make it out that way

Some of it is because of the stupid mythology we have. Thanksgiving is a good example.

 

[strummingram]

Meaning whatever the original thought for Mr. Burns, it isn't uniquely American, nor is it close to being the worst ever anywhere. But in the past 5 years, we seem to want to make it out that way

I don't think Ken Burns was even remotely implying that anything is "UNIQUELY" American. Well, except for maybe being deluded that whenever America has a blemish, the best thing to do is deflect to what other countries have done, as opposed to owning-up to the reasons for what has happened in AMERICA, and accepting blame.

 

[SoonerBeAHawk]

Just to be silly, I was gonna write "Damnit Ciggy, I need more Norman Rockwell this week!"

I had in mind the painting of the assembled table with Grandma serving the bird. But I came across this NR painting:

This was painted in 1964.

I'd say we've righted a lot of wrongs since then. Had obviously righted a lot of wrongs up to and including then. And until recently were still heading in the right direction.

Btw, who knew "Rockwellesque" could include advancing Civil Rights? A-Okay with me.

Let's get back on course and keep working for a better future for all.

/stump speech

 

[z_ape]

You're right, but it would be a lot cooler if it didn't cause such consternation among some of our countrymen. The screeching has reached a fever-pitch, and it's beyond annoying.

The CRT thing? Again, I don't think teaching history was what that was about...

The problem I have with certain people on the progressive end of things on this issue is that they'll become unbalanced and over-emphasize all the negative stuff in American history.

There's a balance to be achieved. There's finite resources associated with the teaching of history, overload it too far either way and you're imbalanced.

And so while it's been well established that we have the America-Is-Great! crowd that will under-emphasize American's missteps, I think you have the America-Is-Evil! crowd that will go the opposite way and fill your history curriculum with too much content focusing on those missteps.

 

[stanzithemanzi12]

What if you're an Italian American? Do you need to reckon with both your violent American past as well as violent Roman past?

What if you're of Comanche decent. Do you need to reckon with the violent past of your native American tribe?

 

[z_ape]

At some point, when does "reckoning with our violent history" become superfluous?

Do we need to tell every story of violence and discrimination?

For example: The Tulsa Race Riots. (or massacre) Absolutely could be taught in schools -- but was it really a problem that it wasn't widely understood?

I learned about the event, like much of the country, last summer. However, as terrible as it was, it did little to enlighten me on the issue of America's historical problems where race is concerned. It was pretty believable that something like that could've happened based on everything else I already knew about the topic. You could so say I already got the gist of the problem we had. You don't have to know every detail to get this.

I get the feeling we have a bunch of people that don't appreciate that thought.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

The CRT thing? Again, I don't think teaching history was what that was about...

The problem I have with certain people on the progressive end of things on this issue is that they'll become unbalanced and over-emphasize all the negative stuff in American history.

There's a balance to be achieved. There's finite resources associated with the teaching of history, overload it too far either way and you're imbalanced.

And so while it's been well established that we have the America-Is-Great! crowd that will under-emphasize American's missteps, I think you have the America-Is-Evil! crowd that will go the opposite way and fill your history curriculum with too much content focusing on those missteps.

I'm not really talking about CRT, I'm talking about the loud minority that can't hear critical analysis of America, or conflicting perspectives of what they learned decades ago, without making a stink about how the country is "going to hell", and then getting elected to school boards and state legislatures. It's dumb and damaging.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

Meaning whatever the original thought for Mr. Burns, it isn't uniquely American, nor is it close to being the worst ever anywhere. But in the past 5 years, we seem to want to make it out that way

I don't think the points you're arguing are actually held or supported by historians. That seems to be a fairly unique position held by those consumed by "culture wars".

 

[Tfxchawk]

American history as in the united states' or american history as in north and south America?

The Sioux wiped out other native American tribes. They were ruthless. When they beat Custer their war chiefs had already destroyed all the other native American tribes. In fact the majority of their wars were not with the white man but with other native Americans. You could make a reasonable argument that they were pushed to do so by the colonial westward expansion of the white man and that most certainly contributed but competition between the tribes occurred prior to whitey ever landing in America.

The Mayans for example were brutal as we're the Aztecs. Human sacrifice really did happen as did ritual cannibalism. In fact the tribes Columbus first encountered and brutalized were in the islands because their ancestors had run from the Mayans. The Mayans killed everyone that wasn't them and were completely dominant. Are they a part of colonialism as they took all that territory or only whitey? The Aztecs took over the Mayan ruins and built their own stories about what everything meant but we're just as brutal is not more so than the Mayans.

Which history of America do you want to acknowledge? The truth or just the new demonization of the white man? Shouldn't we tell the entire story?

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

I'm not really talking about CRT, I'm talking about the loud minority that can't hear critical analysis of America, or conflicting perspectives of what they learned decades ago, without making a stink about how the country is "going to hell", and then getting elected to school boards and state legislatures. It's dumb and damaging.

Imagine being so afraid of your history you remove all records nd references to it to make people feel better instead of having to acknowledge the struggles and growth.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

Imagine being so afraid of your history you remove all records nd references to it to make people feel better instead of having to acknowledge the struggles and growth.

Ok

 

[strummingram]

Imagine being so afraid of your history you remove all records nd references to it to make people feel better instead of having to acknowledge the struggles and growth.

How, where, when has that manifested itself?

 

[z_ape]

I'm not really talking about CRT, I'm talking about the loud minority that can't hear critical analysis of America, or conflicting perspectives of what they learned decades ago, without making a stink about how the country is "going to hell", and then getting elected to school boards and state legislatures. It's dumb and damaging.

Ah. Yeah, those people still exist. I think they've become a lot more fringe than they used to be. The sort of whitewashing of American history people seem to be in more southern, rural locations. I wouldn't trust their school districts to get it right.

A middling HS in Cedar Rapids, Iowa? Not an issue.

American history as in the united states' or american history as in north and south America?

The Sioux wiped out other native American tribes. They were ruthless. When they beat Custer their war chiefs had already destroyed all the other native American tribes. In fact the majority of their wars were not with the white man but with other native Americans. You could make a reasonable argument that they were pushed to do so by the colonial westward expansion of the white man and that most certainly contributed but competition between the tribes occurred prior to whitey ever landing in America.

The Mayans for example were brutal as we're the Aztecs. Human sacrifice really did happen as did ritual cannibalism. In fact the tribes Columbus first encountered and brutalized were in the islands because their ancestors had run from the Mayans. The Mayans killed everyone that wasn't them and were completely dominant. Are they a part of colonialism as they took all that territory or only whitey? The Aztecs took over the Mayan ruins and built their own stories about what everything meant but we're just as brutal is not more so than the Mayans.

Which history of America do you want to acknowledge? The truth or just the new demonization of the white man? Shouldn't we tell the entire story?

The entire story is always tricky. Perhaps along side of the teaching of this history we could also note that US isn't alone in this sort of behavior and that indeed it has been a problem with human beings for a long time now. In fact, this sort of behavior is well documented in our closest evolutionary cousins, the great apes.

 

[Tfxchawk]

Ah. Yeah, those people still exist. I think they've become a lot more fringe than they used to be. The sort of whitewashing of American history people seem to be in more southern, rural locations. I wouldn't trust their school districts to get it right.

A middling HS in Cedar Rapids, Iowa? Not an issue.




The entire story is always tricky. Perhaps along side of the teaching of this history we could also note that US isn't alone in this sort of behavior and that indeed it has been a problem with human beings for a long time now. In fact, this sort of behavior is well documented in our closest evolutionary cousins, the great apes.

The entire story is the only story. When you actually look for the entire story you find it is all the same story. No excuses on any side

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

How, where, when has that manifested itself?

El OH EL.

 

[JRHawk2003]

County Poor Farms....they look bad today...but in 1870?

 

[strummingram]

El OH EL.

Where, when was that?

 

[B1GDeal]

At some point, when does "reckoning with our violent history" become superfluous?

Do we need to tell every story of violence and discrimination?

For example: The Tulsa Race Riots. (or massacre) Absolutely could be taught in schools -- but was it really a problem that it wasn't widely understood?

I learned about the event, like much of the country, last summer. However, as terrible as it was, it did little to enlighten me on the issue of America's historical problems where race is concerned. It was pretty believable that something like that could've happened based on everything else I already knew about the topic. You could so say I already got the gist of the problem we had. You don't have to know every detail to get this.

I get the feeling we have a bunch of people that don't appreciate that thought.

The fact you and many others weren't aware of this is the problem. The United States is a great country full of possibilities, but it's also has some rotten history that shouldn't be hidden or ignored especially in favor of the traditional "not really real" versions that have often been taught. The bad things are reminders of where we have been and the work we have to do still just like the great things are a reminder of all that's good and why it's the best place to be. Don't hide the parts of the past because you don't like them... instead use them as learning opportunities not to repeat past wrongs.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

Where, when was that?

You seriously cannot think of an example where we as Americans have hid history or even destroyed monuments or relics of history to deny that it was an ugly part of the growth that made us who we are today?


Surely you jest.

 

[Rifler]

How, where, when has that manifested itself?

The First Emperor of China Destroys Most Records of the Past Along with 460, or More, Scholars : History of Information

The First Emperor of China Destroys Most Records of the Past Along with 460, or More, Scholars

www.historyofinformation.com

 

[strummingram]

You seriously cannot think of an example where we as Americans have hid history or even destroyed monuments or relics of history to deny that it was an ugly part of the growth that made us who we are today?


Surely you jest.

You're the one insisting that this has occurred. You seriously cannot offer one of them?


ETA:

Statues and monuments are NOT history. Statues and monuments are statues and monuments.

I've used this before. But, it's a great example.

This is history:

This isn't:

Now, the reminders- as a pencil sharpener or a statue- play a role in how people perceive of what happened in history.

That is how a museum like this, is helpful:

 

[z_ape]

The fact you and many others weren't aware of this is the problem. The United States is a great country full of possibilities, but it's also has some rotten history that shouldn't be hidden or ignored especially in favor of the traditional "not really real" versions that have often been taught. The bad things are reminders of where we have been and the work we have to do still just like the great things are a reminder of all that's good and why it's the best place to be. Don't hide the parts of the past because you don't like them... instead use them as learning opportunities not to repeat past wrongs.

No, it's not. My point was that for many Americans learning of the Tulsa incident led to no meaningful change in the way they viewed our history as it pertains to race.

You don't have to have understand every incident that occurred to be able to have a perfectly reasonable understanding of X feature of history.

Since you have finite time and resources for teaching history in K-12, you're left with "good enough" scenarios.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

You're the one insisting that this has occurred. You seriously cannot offer one of them?

Redirect Notice

There are multitude of examples from both sides of the aisle. I was willing to give you more credit than you deserve apparently.

 

[B1GDeal]

No, it's not. My point was that for many Americans learning of the Tulsa incident led to no meaningful change in the way they viewed our history as it pertains to race.

You don't have to have understand every incident that occurred to be able to have a perfectly reasonable understanding of X feature of history.

Since you have finite time and resources for teaching history in K-12, you're left with "good enough" scenarios.

Point is things like Tulsa weren't isolated incidents. And, these things aren't taught when really they should. Might open up far more eyes to where we have been. Wasn't just slaves on plantations that were freed... life still sucked for a long time after they were free and those stories should be told.

 

[JWolf74]

Redirect Notice

There are multitude of examples from both sides of the aisle. I was willing to give you more credit than you deserve apparently.

How does removing paitings, or statues, or any other monument to the traitors in the confederacy "erase history".

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

How does removing paitings, or statues, or any other monument to the traitors in the confederacy "erase history".

By ignoring it we are minimizing a dark spot in our history and discrediting the growth that has made us who we are today imo.


Think of the "strongest" person you know. Are they strong because things have always been easy or are they strong because when life has put a spotlight on thier weakness did they embrace and overcome?

 

[strummingram]

Redirect Notice

There are multitude of examples from both sides of the aisle. I was willing to give you more credit than you deserve apparently.

Statues are not history. Statues are statues. Confederate memorials were mistakes. So, anything else?

 

[strummingram]

By ignoring it we are minimizing a dark spot in our history and discrediting the growth that has made us who we are today imo.

Putting up statues glorifying the Confederacy is blatantly ignoring the "dark spot" in our history. Anything else?

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

Putting up statues glorifying the Confederacy is blatantly ignoring the "dark spot" in our history. Anything else?

No dude. Recognizing the false steps and admitting we have adapted and advanced makes us stronger. Ignoring the bad thing that happened doesn't make us stronger.

 

[B1GDeal]

By ignoring it we are minimizing a dark spot in our history and discrediting the growth that has made us who we are today imo.

Except we aren't ignoring it. Instead, after the South lost, they let them put up these monuments as a way to bring them back into the Union and have a win however small it might be. Instead, the Jim Crow laws and things that made two societies just messed up the Nation's progress for over 100 years. The South and what they fought for and their leaders are taught in school. They aren't forgotten, but they shouldn't be celebrated nor honored.