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Medicare negotiated drug prices...some observations

Aardvark86

HB Heisman
Jan 23, 2018
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So, now that the dust has settled a bit on the release of the first Medicare negotiated prices under the IRA, I offer a few observations for those that are interested in this stuff. Note that, notwithstanding my industry schill status, these are offered simply as that, and not as judgments.

1. As reflected in some other threads, the administration's pressers touted that they had negotiated $6B in savings on the ten drugs, reflecting discounts in the 70%+ range. Candidly, that's very misleading, as the $6B/79% figures are a comparison to list prices, which no one pays, and which do not nearly reflect the gross (list) to net margins of manufacturers reflecting discounts and rebates already in the system. But hey, it's a political presser, and certainly not the first or last in an election season to be very misleading.
2. So then, were there incremental savings negotiated? Yes. Most of the good data analysis (Fein, Hernandez) I've seen here suggests that (with one exception discussed below) the pre-existing gross to nets on these ten products were significantly in excess of 50%, that the final discounts aren't that far from the statutory minimum discounts, and that the net incremental discounts that have been negotiated through this process have probably been in the 6% range. A discount is a discount, so in that sense the process "worked," but the incremental "savings" is really pretty modest.
3. The "exception" noted above is Entresto (heart failure drug). The negotiated discounts there are more significant. Why? well, Novartis was expecting the product to lose patent protection in '26 when this kicked in, and when that happens, (i) your market price falls into the basement, and (ii) the next year, you're excused from negotiated pricing. So the significant Entresto discounts may not actually be meaningful as a practical matter, because even at the low negotiated price, there's a pretty good chance they'll be substituted for an even cheaper generic. But it's even worse. As it happens, during the negotiation, Novartis actually just recently lost its patent litigation on the product in the Federal Circuit, and so the neg price is going to be pretty meaningless even sooner.
4. So, if the incremental negotiated savings were modest, was there any other benefit to patients? Probably yes, though it's the result of a rather significant irony. Under the IRA, the negotiated prices have to be passed through to the benefit of patients at the point of sale (though CMS still hasn't really developed a mechanism to make that happen, and someone is going to win a ginormous government data processing contract to make it happen). So yes, patients will benefit in the sense that they will realize the benefits of the discounts that are already in the system that are currently gobbled up by middlemen such as plans, PBMs, specialty pharmacies, distributors, and the like. What's ironic about that is that the whole approach of making existing manufacturer discounts and rebates available at the point of sale to benefit patients was Trump's on this issue. (Indeed, his administration promulgated a reg on the matter, which the Biden administration withdrew early on.)
5. Note though that the system is not "that" simple, and there are some risks to those patient benefits. First, to the extent that patient costs will be lower, it is likely that they may be subject to cost-sharing for a longer period of time rather than getting to the catastrophic/no copay portion of the drug benefit. Second, while Medicare plans/pbms will have to "cover" negotiated price drugs on formulary, the law does not necessarily limit how the plans/pbms may regulate/limit that coverage, and frankly, due to rebates available to them on competing drugs that haven't been subject to negotiations, they have an incentive to do so. For example, a pbm may place a negotiated price drug at a less preferred formulary tier, or subject it to step edits, because it may be less profitable to the pbm at either the pharmacy or claims payment level. In short, the system does retain some of its "squeeze the balloon" features.
6. Finally, a word about pending litigation. Thus far in the district courts, the administration is something-and-oh, and maybe more importantly, I think has managed to get these cases in circuits that aren't the Fifth. Putting my lawyer nerd hat on, what's interesting about these cases is that thus far the lower courts seem to be holding to existing precedent in Takings cases to the effect that, no matter how big a gun is being held to your head, if you accede to the hostage taker's demands, you have done so voluntarily, and that defeats a Takings claim. It'll be interesting to see whether the courts of appeal continue to tow that line or whether any limits emerge--- Interestingly, Scotus has not recognized such a "voluntariness" principles when it comes to state governments and the power of federal matching funds.
 
Just returned from Covid Country (NW Iowa) vacation this last week. Spent the last 3 days “in bed” with Covid symptoms and tested positive. I was given a script for “paxlovid” which I picked up from the local pharmacy…My cost was $0…but someone (Medicare) was charged $1798 for my 5 doses of Covid antidote.
The good news (I guess) is that I just retested “negative” so I can start to resume more normal retirement activities….golf, drinking….cigars!
Two of the meds on the just released list will help our house directly with large drops in RX prices for my diabetic bride. I am thankful for that..kind of “tax cut” for this middle classes retiree!
 
Just returned from Covid Country (NW Iowa) vacation this last week. Spent the last 3 days “in bed” with Covid symptoms and tested positive. I was given a script for “paxlovid” which I picked up from the local pharmacy…My cost was $0…but someone (Medicare) was charged $1798 for my 5 doses of Covid antidote.
The good news (I guess) is that I just retested “negative” so I can start to resume more normal retirement activities….golf, drinking….cigars!
Two of the meds on the just released list will help our house directly with large drops in RX prices for my diabetic bride. I am thankful for that..kind of “tax cut” for this middle classes retiree!
Glad to hear you are back in the saddle, though I'd pause a bit on the cigars as my experience has been that it takes a bit to really get the wind back. Trust me, $1798 is the starting point; lots of concessions to lots of parties along the way from the factory to your mouth. The primary (and relatively invisible to you) benefit of them is that your premium may have been a tad lower.

Medicare patients with diabetes are huge winners under the IRA, most significantly the $35 price cap for insulin which is really just by fiat and not funded by insulin companies at all. I'm sure you're counting the days til 2026, though remember that what 'you' pay will be your copay, which will not necessarily correlate to the negotiated price.
 
Getting out of the weeds, the government should be able to negotiate prescription drug prices and should also be able to procure globally for the best prices. We don't need $600 defense department screw drivers in our medical system when that comes directly from an individual's pocket.
 
If Americans are paying more for drugs than foreign people pay for the same drug from the same company that needs to stop.

Not sure it happens but you read stories how certain drugs cost way less in Mexico or Canada. Perhaps that can be explained with a because those countries subsidize the cost.

Also maybe the patent length needs to be reduced on drugs.
 
So, now that the dust has settled a bit on the release of the first Medicare negotiated prices under the IRA, I offer a few observations for those that are interested in this stuff. Note that, notwithstanding my industry schill status, these are offered simply as that, and not as judgments.

1. As reflected in some other threads, the administration's pressers touted that they had negotiated $6B in savings on the ten drugs, reflecting discounts in the 70%+ range. Candidly, that's very misleading, as the $6B/79% figures are a comparison to list prices, which no one pays, and which do not nearly reflect the gross (list) to net margins of manufacturers reflecting discounts and rebates already in the system. But hey, it's a political presser, and certainly not the first or last in an election season to be very misleading.
2. So then, were there incremental savings negotiated? Yes. Most of the good data analysis (Fein, Hernandez) I've seen here suggests that (with one exception discussed below) the pre-existing gross to nets on these ten products were significantly in excess of 50%, that the final discounts aren't that far from the statutory minimum discounts, and that the net incremental discounts that have been negotiated through this process have probably been in the 6% range. A discount is a discount, so in that sense the process "worked," but the incremental "savings" is really pretty modest.
3. The "exception" noted above is Entresto (heart failure drug). The negotiated discounts there are more significant. Why? well, Novartis was expecting the product to lose patent protection in '26 when this kicked in, and when that happens, (i) your market price falls into the basement, and (ii) the next year, you're excused from negotiated pricing. So the significant Entresto discounts may not actually be meaningful as a practical matter, because even at the low negotiated price, there's a pretty good chance they'll be substituted for an even cheaper generic. But it's even worse. As it happens, during the negotiation, Novartis actually just recently lost its patent litigation on the product in the Federal Circuit, and so the neg price is going to be pretty meaningless even sooner.
4. So, if the incremental negotiated savings were modest, was there any other benefit to patients? Probably yes, though it's the result of a rather significant irony. Under the IRA, the negotiated prices have to be passed through to the benefit of patients at the point of sale (though CMS still hasn't really developed a mechanism to make that happen, and someone is going to win a ginormous government data processing contract to make it happen). So yes, patients will benefit in the sense that they will realize the benefits of the discounts that are already in the system that are currently gobbled up by middlemen such as plans, PBMs, specialty pharmacies, distributors, and the like. What's ironic about that is that the whole approach of making existing manufacturer discounts and rebates available at the point of sale to benefit patients was Trump's on this issue. (Indeed, his administration promulgated a reg on the matter, which the Biden administration withdrew early on.)
5. Note though that the system is not "that" simple, and there are some risks to those patient benefits. First, to the extent that patient costs will be lower, it is likely that they may be subject to cost-sharing for a longer period of time rather than getting to the catastrophic/no copay portion of the drug benefit. Second, while Medicare plans/pbms will have to "cover" negotiated price drugs on formulary, the law does not necessarily limit how the plans/pbms may regulate/limit that coverage, and frankly, due to rebates available to them on competing drugs that haven't been subject to negotiations, they have an incentive to do so. For example, a pbm may place a negotiated price drug at a less preferred formulary tier, or subject it to step edits, because it may be less profitable to the pbm at either the pharmacy or claims payment level. In short, the system does retain some of its "squeeze the balloon" features.
6. Finally, a word about pending litigation. Thus far in the district courts, the administration is something-and-oh, and maybe more importantly, I think has managed to get these cases in circuits that aren't the Fifth. Putting my lawyer nerd hat on, what's interesting about these cases is that thus far the lower courts seem to be holding to existing precedent in Takings cases to the effect that, no matter how big a gun is being held to your head, if you accede to the hostage taker's demands, you have done so voluntarily, and that defeats a Takings claim. It'll be interesting to see whether the courts of appeal continue to tow that line or whether any limits emerge--- Interestingly, Scotus has not recognized such a "voluntariness" principles when it comes to state governments and the power of federal matching funds.
Thank you for a very cogent and readable analysis. I have a better understanding than I did before I read it.
 
This whole thing is so unnecessarily murky because at the end of the day people are seeking to live at the expense of others.

Let consumers buy their own damn drugs.
 
This whole thing is so unnecessarily murky because at the end of the day people are seeking to live at the expense of others.

Let consumers buy their own damn drugs.
It's interesting, I had a client that had some very "niche-y" products that at one point was considering whether to effectively "opt out" of federal programs entirely. As part of those discussions, one of the things we quickly concluded was that the various concessions required to be paid to those programs could easily subsidize low cash prices generally as well as free product for the Medicaid population.

But doing something like that takes a special blend of courage, insanity, and financing (not to mention products). If someone ever does it and builds the tools to make it work, I suspect others would follow. Indeed, before the Medicare drug benefit was enacted in 2005, some of that was already being done through programs like Together Rx.
 
Getting out of the weeds, the government should be able to negotiate prescription drug prices and should also be able to procure globally for the best prices. We don't need $600 defense department screw drivers in our medical system when that comes directly from an individual's pocket.
Dumb to compare government procurement (a $5 screw driver that went thru half a dozen contractor markups before being delivered with a total system) to yourself buying a drug
 
This whole thing is so unnecessarily murky because at the end of the day people are seeking to live at the expense of others.

Let consumers buy their own damn drugs.
Healthcare is different. If you can’t afford prime rib you might have to choose Hamburger. If you can’t afford insulin you die. If we pay more for drugs than other countries that means we are being ripped off.
 
Just returned from Covid Country (NW Iowa) vacation this last week. Spent the last 3 days “in bed” with Covid symptoms and tested positive. I was given a script for “paxlovid” which I picked up from the local pharmacy…My cost was $0…but someone (Medicare) was charged $1798 for my 5 doses of Covid antidote.
The good news (I guess) is that I just retested “negative” so I can start to resume more normal retirement activities….golf, drinking….cigars!
Two of the meds on the just released list will help our house directly with large drops in RX prices for my diabetic bride. I am thankful for that..kind of “tax cut” for this middle classes retiree!
I had Covid at the end of June and I also was prescribed Paxlovid, with my insurance it was just over $300 for the 5 doses. I'm actually surprised you tested negative, I tested once a few days after and was still positive, so I googled it and was reminded you can test positive for a long time (a month or two I believe) but you can resume all normal activities once fever is gone. My doctor told me that as well when I went in, that I could return to work when I was fever free.
 
Not when it is the sole supplier of coverage to a big block of people (seniors).
Govt is also the sole supplier of practically 100% of our roads and highways. Should they not be able to negotiate prices there? One key difference in my analogy is drug companies are many times the ONLY source for a drug so they should be able to charge whatever they want?
 
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Healthcare is different. If you can’t afford prime rib you might have to choose Hamburger. If you can’t afford insulin you die. If we pay more for drugs than other countries that means we are being ripped off.
healthcare is indeed different, but one of the primary differences is that unlike pretty much every other item or service in the economy, it's driven by third party payment systems.
 
Govt is also the sole supplier of practically 100% of our roads and highways. Should they not be able to negotiate prices there? One key difference in my analogy is drug companies are many times the ONLY source for a drug so they should be able to charge whatever they want?
That is the essence of being a patentholder. But the reality is much more competitive than that. The overwhelming proportion of brand/patented drugs are subject to intense therapeutic competition, which leads to intense price competition. It's just that patients aren't the primary beneficiaries of that price competition. It mostly flows to employers (who pay the majority of premium dollars) and insurers and their contractors who administer the benefits.
 
That is the essence of being a patentholder. But the reality is much more competitive than that. The overwhelming proportion of brand/patented drugs are subject to intense therapeutic competition, which leads to intense price competition. It's just that patients aren't the primary beneficiaries of that price competition. It mostly flows to employers (who pay the majority of premium dollars) and insurers and their contractors who administer the benefits.
Sure but none of that convinces me the government shouldn't be able to negotiate prices.
 
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This whole thing is so unnecessarily murky because at the end of the day people are seeking to live at the expense of others.

Let consumers buy their own damn drugs.
I guess I look at it differently.
I have no problem helping out less fortunate people as those before me did in the days when I wasn't as financially stable as I am today.

But to each their own.
 
Sure but none of that convinces me the government shouldn't be able to negotiate prices.
1. When wearing their hat as a traditional purchaser, they have, and for a long time.
2. When wearing their hat as a financier of public programs, they effectively have, and for a long time, by virtue of (i) a statutory "most favored nation" pricing requirement in federal rebate and discounting programs, and (ii) subcontracting arrangements with their insurance program administration vendors, who are actually pretty good at it. The problem is just that with respect to (ii), the government is too stupid/lazy to capture the benefits of those negotiations.
 
I guess I look at it differently.
I have no problem helping out less fortunate people as those before me did in the days when I wasn't as financially stable as I am today.

But to each their own.
Then do it.

'To each their own' doesn't require a law to take one person's money to buy another person's drugs.
 
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Does society owe a measure of adequate healthcare to every member of society or should it be everyone for themselves? Should we allow people who cannot afford healthcare to simply die?
I take the view that we're all going to die in the end regardless.
That your life may be shorter than mine gives you no claim to any part of mine.

Should someone be able to rob society to ensure they live from 77 to 79?

people 55 and over accounted for 55% of total health spending in 2021, despite making up only 31% of the population.

Guess which is the richest cohort in the country.
If grandpa wants to spend his accumulated wealth on the latest and greatest invented drugs instead of pass on a large inheritance, that's his choice in my eyes.

Make as much wealth as you can and you want.
Spend it on tanning booths or vitamins if you want.
Just quit expecting to live at other people's expense.

The notion that you are 'owed' the involuntary labor of others is perverse to me, and more succinctly called slavery.
 
Does society owe a measure of adequate healthcare to every member of society or should it be everyone for themselves? Should we allow people who cannot afford healthcare to simply die?
Candidly, I think that's a bit of a straw person argument. While there are outstanding moral and policy arguments for a health care social safety net, our health insurance system, and the arguments we currently have about it, have gone waaaaay beyond that.
 
I take the view that we're all going to die in the end regardless.
That your life may be shorter than mine gives you no claim to any part of mine.

Should someone be able to rob society to ensure they live from 77 to 79?

people 55 and over accounted for 55% of total health spending in 2021, despite making up only 31% of the population.

Guess which is the richest cohort in the country.
If grandpa wants to spend his accumulated wealth on the latest and greatest invented drugs instead of pass on a large inheritance, that's his choice in my eyes.

Make as much wealth as you can and you want.
Spend it on tanning booths or vitamins if you want.
Just quit expecting to live at other people's expense.

The notion that you are 'owed' the involuntary labor of others is perverse to me, and more succinctly called slavery.
Holy shit!

That may be the most selfish thing I've read in quite some time!

That's the same POV to someone saying they shouldn't have to pay their property taxes to support schools because their children are grown and won't use them anymore.

Damn, some people are selfish pricks.
 
I take the view that we're all going to die in the end regardless.
That your life may be shorter than mine gives you no claim to any part of mine.

Should someone be able to rob society to ensure they live from 77 to 79?

people 55 and over accounted for 55% of total health spending in 2021, despite making up only 31% of the population.

Guess which is the richest cohort in the country.
If grandpa wants to spend his accumulated wealth on the latest and greatest invented drugs instead of pass on a large inheritance, that's his choice in my eyes.

Make as much wealth as you can and you want.
Spend it on tanning booths or vitamins if you want.
Just quit expecting to live at other people's expense.

The notion that you are 'owed' the involuntary labor of others is perverse to me, and more succinctly called slavery.
I’ll just agree to disagree.
 
I had Covid at the end of June and I also was prescribed Paxlovid, with my insurance it was just over $300 for the 5 doses. I'm actually surprised you tested negative, I tested once a few days after and was still positive, so I googled it and was reminded you can test positive for a long time (a month or two I believe) but you can resume all normal activities once fever is gone. My doctor told me that as well when I went in, that I could return to work when I was fever free.
My bride tested “positive” again….but she has not taken any meds yet….but no fever….
 
Holy shit!

That may be the most selfish thing I've read in quite some time!

How is it not more selfish to want to take someone else's wealth to buy your own wants?

You're taking the position that what's mine should actually be yours, and calling me selfish for opposing it.
 
1. Cuban is of course right that transparency is the key here.
2. That said, Cuban himself tends to play fast and loose with his concepts of "cost" and "price" when he talks about this stuff.
3. You will note that both in the interview and on his Cost plus drugs website, these seemingly eye-poppingly low prices and savings are available pretty much only with respect to generic products. Candidly, it's not rocket science to put together offers like this for generics. Indeed, it's why many retail and grocery chains had programs with zero-cost generics. They are so dirt cheap that the cost of giving them away is typically well worth the benefit in foot traffic within a store. (Though those programs created some other problems for the stores). Long story short - Cuban is just running a mail order pharmacy that dispenses generic drugs. Side note -- it's because price comparisons in this sector can be so squishy that some state pharmacy boards actually prohibit ads that contain them.
4. If you have insurance, which of course these days you're supposed to, these really good prices might not even be 'your' best deal (or the best deal for the 'system'). From "your" perspective, you may well have a zero dollar copay for some generics (I do), which is by definition lower than anything, and you are not paying the "plus," the 'service fee,' or the 'delivery charge' Cuban references if you pick them up yourself. And from the system's perspective, payors typically reimburse pharmacies based on a "MAC" which itself represents a very deep discount to list. And even if the MAC is not as low as the Cuban price, the "system" actually benefits because the MAC is designed to generate some profit for the pharmacy to encourage the pharmacy to substitute a low-cost generic for a brand Rx.

The bottom line is, if you are paying cash for generics, Cuban can offer you some good deals through his sole source procurement programs. But he may not be offering you the best deal, particularly if you have insurance, and what he's doing is not really in any way whatsoever addressing the costs of brand drugs. As with the rest of his life, he's a master marketer.
 
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I take the view that we're all going to die in the end regardless.
That your life may be shorter than mine gives you no claim to any part of mine.

Should someone be able to rob society to ensure they live from 77 to 79?

people 55 and over accounted for 55% of total health spending in 2021, despite making up only 31% of the population.

Guess which is the richest cohort in the country.
If grandpa wants to spend his accumulated wealth on the latest and greatest invented drugs instead of pass on a large inheritance, that's his choice in my eyes.

Make as much wealth as you can and you want.
Spend it on tanning booths or vitamins if you want.
Just quit expecting to live at other people's expense.

The notion that you are 'owed' the involuntary labor of others is perverse to me, and more succinctly called slavery.


Wait, wait. Wasn't I told not long ago by a President that "at some point you've made enough money?"
 
Govt is also the sole supplier of practically 100% of our roads and highways. Should they not be able to negotiate prices there?
Sure they should. And the seller can then take the offer or not.

But to your second sentance, some pharm company is the only supplier of some drug. That pharm company knows it can’t stand the PR beating the pols would give it if it declined the gubmint’s offer. Government coercion again.
 
Holy shit!

That may be the most selfish thing I've read in quite some time!

That's the same POV to someone saying they shouldn't have to pay their property taxes to support schools because their children are grown and won't use them anymore.

Damn, some people are selfish pricks.
$35 Trillion.
 
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