Metcalf and Ramos

[Azchief32]

Let me preface this by saying that I am all in with them...love both of those guys. They work hard, represent our country well and are just good all around, tough dudes. I would give anything to see them on the top of the podium.

However, I think their problems reflect Iowa's overall problems. When they initiate action, good things happen but they seem tentative at times and scared to make mistakes. In my very humble opinion, they need to decide how much they want it. I am not questioning their dedication because the Lord knows, these guys give everything to the sport. I guess what I'm saying is that they cannot wrestle defensively and expect to win. Obviously, they are a whisker from making the podium and even being at the top. I believe they can do it.

Look at Kyle Snyder: During the college season, he was a typical upper weight guy...pummeling in his ties and wait for the other guy to make a mistake and not get caught underneath. He spends the next couple of months developing a low single shot and it wins him a gold medal. Green didn't even win the NCAA but he believes he can score on anybody, from anywhere. A little bigger gas tank and a bit more technique, and he may have been a winner. If he can make the cut, he is going to be a tough beat for Metcalf. In any event, the young man has a high ceiling but is stuck in between. Now he has the confidence to do it.

The Iowa Style looks great when you are dominating lesser opponents but we are supposed to be taking shots in the last two minutes, not reacting to the other guy. If you look at James Green's match vs the Iranian, he was outmatched by the Iranian but he left everything out there.

Our guys got beat by top opponents...no doubt about that. But I saw them leave some stuff out there on the mat. They are better than that. God bless them, the Iowa Hawkeyes, and the USA.

 

[TarpHawk]

I reluctantly agree. Kudos to all who competed, and congrats to Burroughs, Snyder and Green.

 

[taketop]

Maybe it's time for Brent and Tony to get a different flavor to their coaching and training? Nothing against Brands and HWC but a change may be what these two need to get them over the hump.

 

[pablow]

How many top D1 programs could not even place a wrestler on the national freestyle team? Lets see - Penn State, Oklahoma State, Cornell, Minnesota, Edinboro, Illinois, Virginia Tech, . . . We placed two on the team and were within a whisker of having three with Daniel Dennis.

Most of the experts predicted that Metcalf had no freestyle future. Tony came out of nowhere to grab the 57KG spot after wrestling no freestyle for four years. Maybe Brands and the HWC are over-achieving by training wrestlers to reach a level to even make the national team.

So, Iowa is training wrestlers to make the national team. That's a fact. Almost 98% of all D1 wrestling programs don't have to suffer the hearbreak of their athletes failing at the world championships. So if the ride gets too rocky for you, just become a Chicago Cubs fan.

Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.
-Theodore Roosevelt​

 

[Gusaford]

I have a slightly different take. I don't think the issue is that Metcalf was too passive on his feet; same with Ramos. I thought Metcalf was significantly out-muscled by his Iranian opponent, who repeatedly snapped Metcalf's head and threw him off balance. At the end of the day Metcalf had trouble getting past the defense of a great wrestler. I am sure Metcalf is suffering serious anguish over the match, but as a fan I don't think there's any shame in losing 5-4 to the former world champ currently ranked first in the world. I never expected that match to be anything other than a 50/50 proposition.

I thought Tony was similarly out-muscled in his repercharge match. I don't think he lost because of an in-born passivity; I think he couldn't crack his opponent's defense.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's an Iowa issue. David Taylor, for all of his skills and talent and drive, has the same problem with elite international competition: Dake, Burroughs, and Tsargush. (The one asterisk is that Taylor has been able to handle Howe who is as strong as an ox.) Another example: How well would Ruth fare against Sadulaev? No one ever suggested that Ruth suffered from an overly cautious approach. So Ruth's speed and length against Sadulaev's strength and skill. I'd pay a fortune to watch that match. I love Ruth and would root like heck for him, but I would bet on Sadulaev.

It's just stating the obvious to say that Snider was unbelievable. After all, he won world gold at age 19. But, relevant to this thread, Snider never looked like he was at a strength disadvantage and his opponents were rarely able to push him out of position. Opponents would try to snap down on Snider's head and he might move two millimeters. Unreal. As for Burroughs, they need to elevate him to the next league. He's too good for this one.

 

[pumpdog20]

Two things I took away from this weekend:

1) BM and TR need to chain wrestle
2) It's being taught, and they just aren't doing it (per Tony's interview)

I agree with Pablow, I think Tom and Terry have gotten Tony and Brent to overachieve, rather than under.

 

[Sandor45]

-65Kg was probably the toughest weight class at that tourney imo. Metcalf had a bad draw and missed his opportunity for bronze when Iran lost (totally out of his control)
- 57kg was also very tough. Didn't see a whole of Tony's matches, but he was right there with Rahimi from the sounds of it.
Both 57 and 65 are olympic weight classes, so i wonder how many elite guys from 61kg and 70kg went up or down to wrestle at an olympic qualifying weight.
I don't want to take anything away from Green. That dude showed massive strides in a short time and looked like Burroughs 2.0 at times, but you have to think that the world's elites moved up to 74 or down to 65 already to prep for the olympics. (Guys like Dake, Taylor, Howe all stayed at 74 for this reason)
Burroughs is just flat out the best wrestler in the world. He's making Manning and Nebraska look very good. Hard to tell if he's the beneficiary of great training from the Huskers or the Huskers are the beneficiary's of Burroughs greatness. I guess we'll know if Hall decides to go to Nebbie.
Kyle Snyder is a freak of nature, truly. Just his physical body for a 19 year along with his mentality is a once in a generation type of athlete. tOSU must have a hell of a strength and conditioning program cause Snyder was clearly the strongest guy at that weight class. I didn't see him move guys around or not be moved by guys as effectively when he was wrestling McTosh, Gadsen, or Burak.
My gut feeling says Metcalf really is one of the best in the world. There's just some minor tweeks and he's in the semi finals with Chamizo,which would have been a very tough match, (again 65kg toughest weight class). Metcalf doesn't have far to go for a Gold in Rio.
Ramos on the other hand I feel has a bit further to go to catch up on Metcalf's level. No questions, the kid has the tools to be elite, but this is his second year wrestling freestyle, so it's a bit expected. And, there's no better place in the world to take his game to the next level than at HWC with the Brands.
This was my first time watching a lot of international freestyle matches thanks to the livestream (amazing!) and it made me appreciate how ridiculously tough the world competition is.
All the more impressed with this as well

 

[PapaBearSLIM]

They are tough dudes who lack fluidity and diversity in their offense but instead rely on moving forward, exerting their will on opponents and scoring when they get opponents out of position. Most of the times it works but the other times they look passive because their opponents won't come out of position to be attacked. They are so good at what they do that they can beat just about anybody in the world but the few they can't beat are the ones keeping Tony and Brent off the podium.
If they want to step on the podium they need to add some "Wow! What was that?!" to their game. Not sure that can happen at this point in their careers.

 

[sloehawk]

I don't want to try to "poo-poo" the Coaching these guys receive, as I'm certain it is a factor in how they train, how they learn, the mental aspect, etc. But as previously stated many times, the individual has FAR more to do with the outcome than the Coaching of that individual.

Ohio State may have one of the greatest strength and conditioning programs on the planet. But Kyle Snyder has been there for 1 year. He didn't walk thru the door looking like Sheldon Cooper.

As for Burroughs, people can watch all the tape they want. Hey, do what Burroughs does! If they could, they would. These great athletes won this competition on this day. Great for them and the folks who Coach them, the fans of the schools they attended, and the whole USA.

Burroughs does it routinely, we know he's consistent everywhere he goes. Snyder remains to be seen, great run in a short period of time. Regardless of how much of a "man-child" he is, for most of the USA, the last time they saw him, he got thrown like a rag doll and stuck in the NCAA Finals by Mr. Gadson. Kid's a beast, that's for certain, and he's only 19. I guess nobody gives a shit about Aaron Pico anymore.......................

In Summary: It's the Jimmy's and Joe's, not the X's and O's.

 

[pablow]

They are tough dudes who lack fluidity and diversity in their offense but instead rely on moving forward, exerting their will on opponents and scoring when they get opponents out of position. Most of the times it works but the other times they look passive because their opponents won't come out of position to be attacked. They are so good at what they do that they can beat just about anybody in the world but the few they can't beat are the ones keeping Tony and Brent off the podium.
If they want to step on the podium they need to add some "Wow! What was that?!" to their game. Not sure that can happen at this point in their careers.

Do you think that the lack of fluidity and lack of offensive diversity are issues in general in the USA? If so, do think it's related to D1 wrestling's failure to address stalling? In other words, do current D1 rules have the effect of penalizing chain wrestling and aggressive wide-open offense?

 

[hawkster03]

In Summary: It's the Jimmy's and Joe's, not the X's and O's.

And the Russians have the Jimmy's and Joe's AND the X's and O's.

 

[PapaBearSLIM]

Do you think that the lack of fluidity and lack of offensive diversity are issues in general in the USA? If so, do think it's related to D1 wrestling's failure to address stalling? In other words, do current D1 rules have the effect of penalizing chain wrestling and aggressive wide-open offense?

No

 

[pablow]

No

Silly question. Sorry to bother you.

 

[sloehawk]

And the Russians have the Jimmy's and Joe's AND the X's and O's.

AND all they do is Freestyle, which they can have IMO.

 

[lenoxhawks]

Let me preface this by saying that I am all in with them...love both of those guys. They work hard, represent our country well and are just good all around, tough dudes. I would give anything to see them on the top of the podium.

However, I think their problems reflect Iowa's overall problems. When they initiate action, good things happen but they seem tentative at times and scared to make mistakes. In my very humble opinion, they need to decide how much they want it. I am not questioning their dedication because the Lord knows, these guys give everything to the sport. I guess what I'm saying is that they cannot wrestle defensively and expect to win. Obviously, they are a whisker from making the podium and even being at the top. I believe they can do it.

Look at Kyle Snyder: During the college season, he was a typical upper weight guy...pummeling in his ties and wait for the other guy to make a mistake and not get caught underneath. He spends the next couple of months developing a low single shot and it wins him a gold medal. Green didn't even win the NCAA but he believes he can score on anybody, from anywhere. A little bigger gas tank and a bit more technique, and he may have been a winner. If he can make the cut, he is going to be a tough beat for Metcalf. In any event, the young man has a high ceiling but is stuck in between. Now he has the confidence to do it.

The Iowa Style looks great when you are dominating lesser opponents but we are supposed to be taking shots in the last two minutes, not reacting to the other guy. If you look at James Green's match vs the Iranian, he was outmatched by the Iranian but he left everything out there.

Our guys got beat by top opponents...no doubt about that. But I saw them leave some stuff out there on the mat. They are better than that. God bless them, the Iowa Hawkeyes, and the USA.

Turn in your posting card for 3 weeks for such a horrible post. You could have just said you don't know anything and saved everyone a lot of time.

 

[Azchief32]

Turn in your posting card for 3 weeks for such a horrible post. You could have just said you don't know anything and saved everyone a lot of time.

Ahh...you mad bro? Listen to Brent's post match interview, he'll tell you...I'll even link it for you.

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverag...-Just-Didnt-Get-it-Done-In-Vegas#.VfXR73i--SM

Tony too.

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverag...kes-Worlds-Performance-In-Stride#.VfXS8ni--SM

Tony is the best defensive wrestler in his weight class in the U.S. and one of the best reshot guys out there. However, these international guys are just as good or better than him at his own game. The Americans who succeeded took a lot of shots and could transition quickly from shot to turn.

In the match against the Chinese guy in particular, Brent had a wide open shot, he flinched like he was going for it and hesitated and the opportunity closed. Instead, he chose to wrestle defensively and it very nearly cost him. Be pissed all you want, but I think the world of those two guys and want them wrestling in the Olympics next year.

 

[PapaBearSLIM]

Silly question. Sorry to bother you.

Not a silly question and no bother. You asked yes or no questions. I gave a simple answer.

 

[artradley]

AND all they do is Freestyle, which they can have IMO.

This.

 

[rustynailhawk]

Ahh...you mad bro? Listen to Brent's post match interview, he'll tell you...I'll even link it for you.

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverag...-Just-Didnt-Get-it-Done-In-Vegas#.VfXR73i--SM

Tony too.

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverag...kes-Worlds-Performance-In-Stride#.VfXS8ni--SM

Tony is the best defensive wrestler in his weight class in the U.S. and one of the best reshot guys out there. However, these international guys are just as good or better than him at his own game. The Americans who succeeded took a lot of shots and could transition quickly from shot to turn.

In the match against the Chinese guy in particular, Brent had a wide open shot, he flinched like he was going for it and hesitated and the opportunity closed. Instead, he chose to wrestle defensively and it very nearly
A cost him. Be pissed all you want, but I think the world of those two guys and want them wrestling in the Olympics next year.

I'm glad your kid is going to Minnesota so I don't have to cheer for him. You are a great poster but gfy

 

[letsgohawks44]

I'm glad your kid is going to Minnesota so I don't have to cheer for him. You are a great poster but gfy

his kid is not going to Minnesota

 

[Azchief32]

I'm glad your kid is going to Minnesota so I don't have to cheer for him. You are a great poster but gfy

No kid going to Minne...If I had one at that level, I would probably disown them...haha. Feel free to tell me how I'm wrong though. It's called talking wrestling. Some of those matches just reminded me of some of the big ones our team guys have had. Do we not spend the regular season talking about the lack of shots for our team against higher level guys? For our guys to win championships at the college and world level, they are going to have to take some risks.

Dude...you're talking to a guy that would have no problem putting a Metcalf and Ramos fathead on my wall if they made them, I am such a fanboy of both. As I stated in my first post...I am all in whether they make their goals or not. Same for the Hawks.

 

[Lyco1990]

-65Kg was probably the toughest weight class at that tourney imo. Metcalf had a bad draw and missed his opportunity for bronze when Iran lost (totally out of his control)
- 57kg was also very tough. Didn't see a whole of Tony's matches, but he was right there with Rahimi from the sounds of it.
Both 57 and 65 are olympic weight classes, so i wonder how many elite guys from 61kg and 70kg went up or down to wrestle at an olympic qualifying weight.
I don't want to take anything away from Green. That dude showed massive strides in a short time and looked like Burroughs 2.0 at times, but you have to think that the world's elites moved up to 74 or down to 65 already to prep for the olympics. (Guys like Dake, Taylor, Howe all stayed at 74 for this reason)
Burroughs is just flat out the best wrestler in the world. He's making Manning and Nebraska look very good. Hard to tell if he's the beneficiary of great training from the Huskers or the Huskers are the beneficiary's of Burroughs greatness. I guess we'll know if Hall decides to go to Nebbie.
Kyle Snyder is a freak of nature, truly. Just his physical body for a 19 year along with his mentality is a once in a generation type of athlete. tOSU must have a hell of a strength and conditioning program cause Snyder was clearly the strongest guy at that weight class. I didn't see him move guys around or not be moved by guys as effectively when he was wrestling McTosh, Gadsen, or Burak.
My gut feeling says Metcalf really is one of the best in the world. There's just some minor tweeks and he's in the semi finals with Chamizo,which would have been a very tough match, (again 65kg toughest weight class). Metcalf doesn't have far to go for a Gold in Rio.
Ramos on the other hand I feel has a bit further to go to catch up on Metcalf's level. No questions, the kid has the tools to be elite, but this is his second year wrestling freestyle, so it's a bit expected. And, there's no better place in the world to take his game to the next level than at HWC with the Brands.
This was my first time watching a lot of international freestyle matches thanks to the livestream (amazing!) and it made me appreciate how ridiculously tough the world competition is.
All the more impressed with this as well

View embedded media

I thought Ramos looked much better than I expected. I really did not believe he was ready for prime time and I was wrong. He should be a force in 2016. Metcalf's bracket was crazy tough. He wrestled a great match against the Iranian. I was however real disappointed in the old guard. Humphries did not look at the same level with many in his weight class although he did have a great throw. Herbert did not even show up. Hard to win a match at Worlds without taking a shot. Snyder is the man to beat for a long time, Boroughs is well golden. Finally, Green is for real great tournament.

 

[whejoe]

I'm glad your kid is going to Minnesota so I don't have to cheer for him. You are a great poster but gfy

I'm speechless.....

 

[lookleft goright]

I am not really excited about saying this, but it seems like either you can wrestle on the world level or you can't. Burroughs, Green, Snyder, John Smith, Tom and Terry Brands, Baumgartner, Monday, The Schultz brothers, Randy Lewis all were successful right away. If you do not have the athletic ability, no amount of technique seems to be enough.
We can talk about style and mentality, but everyone on the world scene seems to have that and the thing that separates the top tier from the second and third tier is athletic ability. Quickness and power and flexibility.

This is not meant to be a slam against anyone. It merely is a statement that a person's God given talent is the final determining factor in a person's ultimate success at the world level. ( and an occasion screwing or assistance by an official)

 

[grapplefann]

The Iowa Style looks great when you are dominating lesser opponents but we are supposed to be taking shots in the last two minutes, not reacting to the other guy. If you look at James Green's match vs the Iranian, he was outmatched by the Iranian but he left everything out there.

Let's get something straight. The "Iowa Style" isn't about pushing and shoving with no offense. When Metcalf or Ramos or anyone else doesn't display late match offense when the chips are down, that isn't an "Iowa style," and I think that they would be the first to agree. I hear and read that Tom and Terry teach and preach offense, but if the guys aren't picking this up, or if they are unable to execute what they know is needed, then there is simply more work to do, particularly at this level.

 

[Azchief32]

Let's get something straight. The "Iowa Style" isn't about pushing and shoving with no offense. When Metcalf or Ramos or anyone else doesn't display late match offense when the chips are down, that isn't an "Iowa style," and I think that they would be the first to agree. I hear and read that Tom and Terry teach and preach offense, but if the guys aren't picking this up, or if they are unable to execute what they know is needed, then there is simply more work to do, particularly at this level.

Think that's what I posted...you even quoted it for me.

 

[pablow]

Not a silly question and no bother. You asked yes or no questions. I gave a simple answer.

Fair enough. Next time I'll ask for an essay answer.

 

[wasdt21]

Metcalf is there, he can compete with any and all of the worlds best,he lost one match by one point. my worst worry with brent is his window is closing. I hope he has another run in him,but all this crap about hes not doing this or that right is just wrong

 

[sloehawk]

I am not really excited about saying this, but it seems like either you can wrestle on the world level or you can't. Burroughs, Green, Snyder, John Smith, Tom and Terry Brands, Baumgartner, Monday, The Schultz brothers, Randy Lewis all were successful right away. If you do not have the athletic ability, no amount of technique seems to be enough.
We can talk about style and mentality, but everyone on the world scene seems to have that and the thing that separates the top tier from the second and third tier is athletic ability. Quickness and power and flexibility.

This is not meant to be a slam against anyone. It merely is a statement that a person's God given talent is the final determining factor in a person's ultimate success at the world level. ( and an occasion screwing or assistance by an official)

Yep. Jimmy's and Joe's.

 

[sloehawk]

Metcalf is there, he can compete with any and all of the worlds best,he lost one match by one point. my worst worry with brent is his window is closing. I hope he has another run in him,but all this crap about hes not doing this or that right is just wrong

Yeah, feel really bad for Brent. He is certainly capable of winning the whole shebang, but until he does the 2nd guessing will continue. Such is life. I fear that his window is closing a little bit too, but in reality he's got quite a few good years left, if he so chooses, but not 2 Olympic cycles, IMO. Rio is his shot. I'll hope for the best.

I do know that he was a HAMMER at Iowa, and that's what I care about most. Lincoln Mcllravy didn't win any World or Olympic Gold either, and they don't get any better than him. I guess it's really hard to do, and a little luck to go with great skill doesn't hurt either....................

 

[Blackcat97]

Let's get something straight. The "Iowa Style" isn't about pushing and shoving with no offense. When Metcalf or Ramos or anyone else doesn't display late match offense when the chips are down, that isn't an "Iowa style," and I think that they would be the first to agree. I hear and read that Tom and Terry teach and preach offense, but if the guys aren't picking this up, or if they are unable to execute what they know is needed, then there is simply more work to do, particularly at this level.

You don't think that's what the Iowa style has become in recent years? Can you honestly and objectively say that watching Iowa wrestle you feel they are more offensive than other top teams? What was the last truly offensive wrestler that Iowa has had? If you don't think that the problems that Metcalf and Ramos have internationally are very similar to the problems that the team has had as a group lately, I think you blinders on. When Tom and Terry wrestled, that was not the Iowa style, when Metcalf wrestled NCAA, that was not the Iowa style, today, pushing and shoving with little or no attempts is very much the Iowa style. If you asked the average high school kid (who doesn't have the frame of reference of the last 30 years) to describe what the "Iowa Style" is, that is exactly what they would say.

Back to topic, I just think that Metcalf is not quite at the level of most of the guys in the most stacked weight class in the world. I think he is probably the 8-12th best guy in the weight. On a great day, he has potential to beat anybody in the weight, on most days, the top 1-5 guys will beat him. I will be pulling for him to get a great draw and have a great day should he be our rep in Rio. Certainly nobody has earned it more.

Ramos is the benefit of a currently very weak weight in the United States. He is the best we have, but is further behind the best guys in the world than is Metcalf.

 

[mike tognetti]

I'm glad your kid is going to Minnesota so I don't have to cheer for him. You are a great poster but gfy

HR at it's best. Talked to a few Iowa guys (posters)at Las Vegas, they even said this board has gone to shi#. There waiting on pins and needles for the next Lee thread.

I am not really excited about saying this, but it seems like either you can wrestle on the world level or you can't. Burroughs, Green, Snyder, John Smith, Tom and Terry Brands, Baumgartner, Monday, The Schultz brothers, Randy Lewis all were successful right away. If you do not have the athletic ability, no amount of technique seems to be enough.
We can talk about style and mentality, but everyone on the world scene seems to have that and the thing that separates the top tier from the second and third tier is athletic ability. Quickness and power and flexibility.

This is not meant to be a slam against anyone. It merely is a statement that a person's God given talent is the final determining factor in a person's ultimate success at the world level. ( and an occasion screwing or assistance by an official)

The best post on this board all off season! Now you all can post for the next month and add a few more threads on this matter to kill some time. We really need a thread on Lee having a operation on his shoulder.

 

[sloehawk]

HR at it's best. Talked to a few Iowa guys (posters)at Las Vegas, they even said this board has gone to shi#. There waiting on pins and needles for the next Lee thread.

The best post on this board all off season! Now you all can post for the next month and add a few more threads on this matter to kill some time. We really need a thread on Lee having a operation on his shoulder.

Did the pulse of Hawkeye Wrestling Nation (i.e. - those "few guys") have any comment on if "the board had gone to shit" before or after your arrival?

 

[lookleft goright]

This is a great board as far as I am concerned. Maybe the posters do not like people from outside the Hawkeye nation posting. I cannot see any other reason to say this board is sh*t.
As a neutral fan, I love this board.

 

[wasdt21]

same reply as I gave dice if you dislike it so much move on you wont be missed and I have been one of your supporters mike.

 

[lookleft goright]

I just watched Ramos and Rahimi from Iran. I loved the new Ramos. He was faking and moving. Taking different shots and then also underhooking and going upper body. WOW!!
If he keeps that up, he will be a medalist pretty soon -IMHO.

 

[Azchief32]

Mike is just doing his thing...which is not much.

The reason Hawk fans are harsh to some outsiders is because it takes a bit to establish that although you root for another team, you are here to talk wrestling. So used to trolls that sometimes it's hard to notice the difference.