That may have been the most convoluted gobbledy gook you have EVER written on here and that is a pretty high bar! I am not going to weight this thread down arguing with someone that isn't even an Iowa fan. You put your 2 cents in and I am happy for you. This argument is actually for people that care about how Iowa performs, or at least feign like they do...
Iowa Grades 2025 B1G Tournament
- Thread starter MSU158
- Start date
You know what is sad? You tried to bait arguments in like 5 different threads about a week or so ago. But nobody bit. So now you "volunteer" to write grades and came up with this.
I know you are happy with yourself. I see you.
I was just taking a shot at good old MSU, not the Hawks. I think the team is who the team is. No one realistically thinks that anyone besides Drake and Buchanon have a shot at a title. Caliendo has a puncher's chance because he should be there in the finals and anything can happen in a single match. Beyond that, the other guys are looking for a 3-8 finish. It's disappointing for a fan base that is used to competing at a level higher than that, but it is what it is this year.
I get in an annual pick 'em pool where you can only pick 2 #1 seeds. I'm definitely taking Drake and Stephen at 133 and 197. My number #1s will be Mesenbrink and Gable, along with 99% of the field.
So I should "Have a nice day then?"
Others will read what I wrote and see your ploy for what it is. It's just too obvious.
I celebrated my C+s. Usually too late at night which resulted in another F the next morning.
I think the OPs grades and arguments are fair and have merritt. Certainly he is looking at it with his HAWK glasses on!!! Others, especially guys like TARPHAWK who have about the best ability to understand/evaluate/rank/grade etc.... the program. ALSO have valid points!!!
My opinion is, WE as IOWA fans are NOT seeing "the light at the end of the tunnel" or the program "turning the corner!!!" What is the FORMULA for the HAWKS to get back to DOMINANCE is the question EVERYONE wants answered!?!?!?
This weekend did NOT give us any "great enthusiasm" sort a speak. As MSU said/wrote very clearly, IOWA did NOT exactly SHEET the bed, BUT they obviously didn't exceed any expectations either!!!
What concerns me the most is the lack of development. It is NOT only our TOP kids, it is ALL level of wrestlers in the program. I saw for example several Illinois kids "making strides!!!" I think you could say that with a bunch of teams. Us fans have reason/HOPE for the future as we have some HAMMERS in the program, and a NICE group in waiting or coming in!!!
What we STILL need though is a way to COMPLETE the 10 man team!!! I point to ESTRADA and I am almost PRAYING that he will be one of those guys to "break out" and fill 149!!!! WHY though are we not seeing kids take bigger steps more often??????
As a COACH/TRAINER I am just not getting it!?!?!? I would LOVE to spend a week or TWOOOO just hanging around the program. Following the wrestlers all day long to see what in ALL HELL they are doing????? I mean the resources they have, coaches, facilities, rehab, prehab, videos, coaches etc......
WHAT is going on all day???? IF I was in the position where I am making REAL good $$$$$ and my job is to COACH, and I have IOWA U or some other unbelievable place to do it at!!!! I have to tell you, I would basically be living on the campus and working 24/7!!!
AND- I would get RESULTS or I would keep working harder!!!
My opinion is, WE as IOWA fans are NOT seeing "the light at the end of the tunnel" or the program "turning the corner!!!" What is the FORMULA for the HAWKS to get back to DOMINANCE is the question EVERYONE wants answered!?!?!?
This weekend did NOT give us any "great enthusiasm" sort a speak. As MSU said/wrote very clearly, IOWA did NOT exactly SHEET the bed, BUT they obviously didn't exceed any expectations either!!!
What concerns me the most is the lack of development. It is NOT only our TOP kids, it is ALL level of wrestlers in the program. I saw for example several Illinois kids "making strides!!!" I think you could say that with a bunch of teams. Us fans have reason/HOPE for the future as we have some HAMMERS in the program, and a NICE group in waiting or coming in!!!
What we STILL need though is a way to COMPLETE the 10 man team!!! I point to ESTRADA and I am almost PRAYING that he will be one of those guys to "break out" and fill 149!!!! WHY though are we not seeing kids take bigger steps more often??????
As a COACH/TRAINER I am just not getting it!?!?!? I would LOVE to spend a week or TWOOOO just hanging around the program. Following the wrestlers all day long to see what in ALL HELL they are doing????? I mean the resources they have, coaches, facilities, rehab, prehab, videos, coaches etc......
WHAT is going on all day???? IF I was in the position where I am making REAL good $$$$$ and my job is to COACH, and I have IOWA U or some other unbelievable place to do it at!!!! I have to tell you, I would basically be living on the campus and working 24/7!!!
AND- I would get RESULTS or I would keep working harder!!!
Again, I am not going to argue this with you. My responses in this thread are 100% genuine. I think they wrestled to a C+ and gave pretty detailed reasons for each guy. Now, I didn't say that C+ is "acceptable". I made it pretty clear that no one should be happy with that.
However, C+ is considerably better than abject failure and that is how many have portrayed it. To me, abject failure isn't 8 placers and 7 in the top 5. Now this is it for you in this thread. Try all you want, but I am not going down this road with you...
I would change PK from a B to a B+ because he did pin his guy in the 5th place match.
Nah, that guy was 14-16 going into that match. You aren't getting higher than a B without a marquee win...
I give the team a D-. Zero champs. Only 1 wrestling over seed. That sucks bigly. I'm not angry at Ayala, he just got caught (B-). Keuter was solid (A-). MC wrestled MM well and brought it the entire weekend (B+). Cruz tried, but isn't on a championship level (C). PK was pretty solid, but can't find a way to break through to the next level (B). Teemer's body just isn't holding up and that sucks (C-). Gabe is going to be fine, but it was a rough weekend (C-). Parco was disappointing (D+). CS didn't qualify the weight (F). Buchanan I am disappointed in how he wrestled the last match B-.
We need champions. Need to create better shots. Need to learn to cradle. And how the F do we not get out on the bottom better. Love our guys and team, but it was a very rough weekend. Coaching was not very good in my opinion. They have a chance still at nationals to show something. A second place finish would be solid work.
I don't think we get the Raney's even though I badly want them to wear the black and gold. Think we will get Mocco. I am excited about what the next few years could be. We need to shake up our coaching a bit. Would love to see more emphasis on getting talent into the RTC. There's potentially bright future. Go Hawks.
We need champions. Need to create better shots. Need to learn to cradle. And how the F do we not get out on the bottom better. Love our guys and team, but it was a very rough weekend. Coaching was not very good in my opinion. They have a chance still at nationals to show something. A second place finish would be solid work.
I don't think we get the Raney's even though I badly want them to wear the black and gold. Think we will get Mocco. I am excited about what the next few years could be. We need to shake up our coaching a bit. Would love to see more emphasis on getting talent into the RTC. There's potentially bright future. Go Hawks.
So, you grade the team based on the results you wanted vs. the actual performance of the wrestlers? Because, your grades per wrestler, in a composite, come out to basically what I gave them.....C+
Also, an F for Schriever because he didn't qualify the weight from the 11 seed? He actually wrestled 2 guys that were considerably better than him to pretty close matches. Mind you Schriever was 4-8 going into B1G's and went 1-2 with a TF win...
As the whole can be greater than the sum of the parts so the whole can be worse than the sum of the parts. Grading is based on the standards the Hawks should have.
Here's the problem. Why are we parsing this out? We're supposed to be the CLEAR 2nd best team in NCAAs. Not just the Big Ten.
Reserving judgement until NCAAs, but man. It's clear we need to clean house. And if you want to say Tom shouldn't go, fine. All the assistants need to go and the RTC needs to be taken seriously.
Big Tens - grading that specifically - was an unmitigated disaster. No champs. 1 guy wrestling above seed. Losing rematches. There's just no need to add "context" - other than Teemer. He got hurt, and its not on the coaches. Not going full nuclear as I have in the past, because NCAAs is "all that matters" - so maybe there's a rebound.
So, exactly what I said. The team gets graded on what your expectations are for the Hawks, no matter who they have on the mat. Honestly, I don't have an issue with that and I even understand that stance. My argument is solely based on how the actual team wrestled relative to realist expectations for each guy...
The TEAM wrestled like absolute shit and deserves a D-.
Again, my B1G performance argument is facts over feelings. I get the stance when solely looking at what your expectations are for Iowa wrestling. In fact, I have tried to be pretty clear I am NOT arguing against that part. My sole argument, like I said above to prague, is that the actual wrestlers that took the mat pretty much uniformly wrestled very close to realistic expectations. Teemer and Cruz are the only 2 that were significantly low and 1 guy actually impressed me with how well he did considering his health,and the other, I NEVER expected to do anything of substance...
Fact - we finished third as a team at Big Tens.
I get you're trying to be understanding and positive in the face of this. But we don't exactly have a great record when it comes to having a better performance at NCAAs. Hope I'm wrong.
A baseline which seems to includes no expectations for improvement per the many many words to date.
Why? You can go back through my posts and see how supportive I am of the team. They had a terrible weekend vs expectations. A single champ and they would be up to a C. Two champs and up to around a B.
Nothing personal. I was pointed out as not being a true Iowa fan. And I agree with the top end D- grade. I just stop short of using something so pejorative as "shit."
What do you not get? The team should have placed 2nd at worst and they were a lot closer to 5th than they were to 2nd. All but 2 wrestlers were below seed. Do you think they are happy about their performance?
Truly I am just trying to take "feelings' out of it completely.
1.) Nebraska had a MONSTER tournament. Iowa finished 3rd more because of that than any massive underperformance. Most of the gap came from 125 and 141 where Iowa, quite frankly, sucks....Who else finished behind A Neb guy that shouldn't have? Parco? And I think that is a stretch to say he absolutely should have...In fact, Iowa finished ahead of Neb at 133, 165, 174, 184, 197 and 285..
2.) Teemer's health was a big factor too. Still, how he performed actually gave me more positive than negative. He showed me he may be able to still sneak onto the podium at NCAA's, with a great draw.
It really isn't me trying to spin a positive. I don't think they wrestled good. I clearly said as much. All I have been saying is 8 placers, with 7 in the top 5 is far from abject failure...
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"Feelings" are why you can't help, but click reply to everyone. It was an awful tourney for the Hawks. Looking at history, I don't like the chances of it, but let's hope we can get the results fixed in a couple weeks.
They took 3rd to a team they beat at 6 out of 10 weights. Sadly, the gap was decided by a 2nd place and 1st place finish at the 2 weights Iowa sucks. On top of that, one of their key guys is basically wrestling on 1 leg and 1 arm.
The simple truth is they still had 8 guys place and 7 finish top 5. Spin the all but 2 wrestlers were below seed all you want, but this is the 2nd hardest tournament of the year BY FAR. 7 top 5 finishes is NOT a D-
Now, I never once said ANYONE should be happy with that performance. In fact, I have said quite the opposite. I am not remotely "happy" with it either...
Seriously? So, not having feelings would mean I don't reply to people in a conversation? Look, I think this is actually a good, healthy debate. To me, it is much more of a fundamental disagreement. Most arguing against me are on the side of what they simply expect Iowa wrestling to achieve, while I was simply looking at how each wrestler performed based on how they looked coming into said tournament.
Finally, I don't get mad or upset when you guys disagree with me. My feeling aren't hurt. Most of the responses I respect, even if I disagree...
👍 I agree with ALL. Prague is spot on…
MSU the goal should be peaking come March and tournament time, not just continuing previous performance.. That means beating everyone youve beat before PLUS beating people youve previously lost to. It means winning by bonus vs previously winning by decision. It means outperforming seed. It means a team coming out healthy to wrestle and not all wrapped up and injured. None of this happened this year with the exception of BK.
Well, a lot of the argument has been over whether it was a "disaster" or not. That can be quite subjective. Seems to me a disaster can genuinely be judged by a combo of both overall Iowa expectations and the realistic expectations for each wrestler in this tourney.
Iowa should be competitive when it comes to the B1G tourney. They were a distant third, even trounced by Nebraska. Even you only gave the team a C-. That by definition is below average. And it was. All three finalists lost . . . no champions for two years in a row. Our two #1s got beat. Our only undefeated wrestler got beat. At least four wrestlers lost to people they beat earlier. We only had one guy wrestle above seed. The team didn't, by any definition, peak. That's a lot of fail.
Yeah, I think Caliendo and Keuter were brighter spots. But I'm sure there were bright moments of sacrifice and heroism when Titanic went down. I'm hoping at nationals they can right the ship . . . at least to the point I don't consider it a disaster. One champion would be enough for me. Especially if it is Steve B. That would break the 15-year drought of no champions in the upper weights.
Again, I have ZERO issue with that "goal". In fact, that is pretty much the standard goal for all of wrestling. My argument is simply against grading 7 top 5 finishes as a fail because they didn't quite reach, let alone exceed, their absolute ceilings.
Again, for perspective they finished 2,2,2,3,4,5,5,7, (1-2) and 10th including the 9th place bracket.
To be clear, I keep reiterating it was NOT a good performance. It was a "meh" performance.
Finally, if your grading system is basically an A or you fail, then I have no argument with you. You are fully entitled to that opinion and I won't stand in your way there...
The old Iowa Style is nothing more than a pleasant memory of the Gable years. There are always exceptions but the Iowa Style under Brands has slowly become the Morningstar Style of the past which was grind out a close win and hope to do this well enough to be an AA. Not a recipe for success. Not a recipe to truly be the best.
We need to get back to being stronger both mentally & physically. Get back to being better conditioned. The Brands needs to read some Lombardi books, rent some Tony Robbin’s tapes, perhaps get advice from a therapist or better yet Dan Gable. I don’t know where we find “it” but what we’re doing today “ain’t working”.
Tom needs to do better finding his way inside each of his athletes heads and find what “makes them tick”. What motivates them to be the best…
It breaks my heart to see Iowa wrestlers fall short of their dreams. Not because I’m sad for myself but I am sad for the young men gutting it out. Coach, don’t do it for “the fans”. Do it for yourselves and your athletes.
Airing frustrations should prolly wait until later in the month or maybe not at all…
Folks please take this with a grain of salt as I’ve been cooped up and for three days watching/listening to frustrating Iowa wrestling fans, not to mention I’ve had too much coffee.
Off to the park…I need some fresh air😬
We need to get back to being stronger both mentally & physically. Get back to being better conditioned. The Brands needs to read some Lombardi books, rent some Tony Robbin’s tapes, perhaps get advice from a therapist or better yet Dan Gable. I don’t know where we find “it” but what we’re doing today “ain’t working”.
Tom needs to do better finding his way inside each of his athletes heads and find what “makes them tick”. What motivates them to be the best…
It breaks my heart to see Iowa wrestlers fall short of their dreams. Not because I’m sad for myself but I am sad for the young men gutting it out. Coach, don’t do it for “the fans”. Do it for yourselves and your athletes.
Airing frustrations should prolly wait until later in the month or maybe not at all…
Folks please take this with a grain of salt as I’ve been cooped up and for three days watching/listening to frustrating Iowa wrestling fans, not to mention I’ve had too much coffee.
Off to the park…I need some fresh air😬
Well, that's what he wanted, so no surprise there. Whether it was emotionally driven or calm rationale logic, we may never know.
I think you can provide context to MC as well. As that was not only the closest match (by far!) that he has wrestled against MM, but the closest anyone has wrestled MM outside of multi-champs Carr and O'Toole.
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