To sum this up...Mark Hall may have been a year older than people as a true freshman.
no wonder he won a title over 23year old rs jr Bo Jordan
no wonder he won a title over 23year old rs jr Bo Jordan
not to ruminate, but PSU recruiting....
- Thread starter hawknut
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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I think the point is people were making a big deal out or Hall being so impressive winning it as a true freshman. But in reality he was at the age of a redshirt freshman, which is impressive, but has been done numerous times before. And it's not like Iowa fans were solely responsible for mentioning his age as a factor. Mark Hall himself brought up the fact that he was a true freshman after he won it, and that's why people counter with, well yeah but you're a 20 year old "true" freshman.
While that is true that he is a 20 year old "true" freshman, CVD's point was that the difference in "true" freshman is a few months. The real difference is spending a year in a college room, especially a top college room. In that sense, while he had a few months on people age wise (comparitively), the RS Freshman had the year in the room on him to learn and improve.
I would prefer the year in the college room and also competing against college competition in tournaments, etc. That makes what he did a bit different than a RS Freshman....imo.
touche - mark hall's accomplishments are totally overrated.
let's stick to the facts. lots of 20 y/o win national titles. name them.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Are you serious Clark? There have been a ton of freshman national champs and I imagine most are 20 or younger.
I'll name a few in just the last couple of years. Tomasello, T-shirt, Martinez, Joseph, Martin, Snyder
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Snyder lost to Gadson his freshman year. But yeah, there have been a bunch of 20 y/o champs.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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I think he was pointing out freshman who were 20 or under in response to Smalls above.
This is an Iowa board. Lincoln McIlravy won it at 18. He did not spend any time at an Olympic training center. Hall, nice job. Lincoln, amazing.
I included Snyder because smalls said 20yr olds that won a national title and Snyder was only 20 when he was a soph
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Ahh gotcha. Yeah not sure what Smalls was thinking with that comment about not many 20 y/o winning a title.
Just shows what little knowledge about wrestling he has. PSU fan but no credibility or resume to be trying to do what he is doing.
it has nothing to do with PSU (or lack of knowledge). I know how many have won as TR Frosh, as Redshirt Frosh, and as 20 year olds.
they don't grow on trees.
McDonough was 6 weeks shy of 20 years old when he won his first. I would respond the same way if someone said it wasn't that big of a deal b/c of his age.
i get it. mark is a year older than your average true frosh. but 1) that's not as rare these days, and 2) it doesn't make the accomplishment (at least imo) any more impressive.
This decade it looks like this is the list of =/< 20 y/o champs
McDonough ('10)
Dake ('10, '11)
Tomasello ('15)
Martinez ('15)
Martin ('16)
Snyder ('16)
Joseph ('17)
Hall ('17)
so he was 1 of 8 at his age and 1 of 3 true freshmen.
they don't grow on trees.
McDonough was 6 weeks shy of 20 years old when he won his first. I would respond the same way if someone said it wasn't that big of a deal b/c of his age.
i get it. mark is a year older than your average true frosh. but 1) that's not as rare these days, and 2) it doesn't make the accomplishment (at least imo) any more impressive.
This decade it looks like this is the list of =/< 20 y/o champs
McDonough ('10)
Dake ('10, '11)
Tomasello ('15)
Martinez ('15)
Martin ('16)
Snyder ('16)
Joseph ('17)
Hall ('17)
so he was 1 of 8 at his age and 1 of 3 true freshmen.
Mark Hall's true freshman championship is about the 4th most impressive thing the kid has done in the last couple years. He is a freak.
You could take Willie's comment to mean any 20 year old, but since this whole conversation is about freshman and rs freshman, I feel pretty confident that he was still talking about 20 year old freshman (though technically you could read it as ANY 20 yr old).
His point is that it is hard to win as a freshman, even harder as a true freshman, and it has little to do with age.
Cconsidering the fact that there have been champions for about 50 years (since of course Freshman couldn't compete for a long time) and Mark Hall was I think the 16th True freshman champ (I think I read that Myles Martin was the 15th, but my memory isn't what it used to be), I think he has a good point.
By saying he is only the 16th in 50 years is very misleading since most freshmen don't get a chance there TF year, even if they most likely would have won, Cael included. Just look at the last several years when more top TF are wrestling and you are seeing more.
Actually I cut it down. Ncaa's have been going on since the 20's, but since 1969 freshman have been eligible and some years during the war, so I took that into consideration.
There have been 4 this decade, but that is not many considering the number of possibilities. I agree things are changing some, though I think that is more training, specializing, opportunities, etc. Willie's point still holds though. Very tough to do as a true freshman.
By the way, I do get your point that some red shirt so never really have a chance to wrestle as a tf. Therefore there may be more if that was not the case, but I don't think you can say they would have won, even Cael or Steiber, etc. It is just not that easy, especially when you go against a crafty vet. The learning curve to college is steep. When you look at most RS years you see most needed it.
i think that's where i'm getting hung up in this thread. ^^^ that point means very little. As proven in the list above - it doesn't matter if they DO or DONT redshirt. TRFR champs and RSFR champs are both few and far between. Even if you call Mark Hall a RSFR b/c of age - he's still one of a few. Everyone has a chance to wrestle as a 20y/o. 9 (w/ Zain) have done it this decade.
i guess we're getting in to personal preference of what we're impressed with, but that's my opinion.
I was not saying that rs champ isn't rare, just that some do not have the "chance" to wrestle as a tf. And while I agree with your point generally, I will differ with you that while it is tough even as a rs freshman, imo even that is not comparable to a true freshman winning it. I believe the year in the room is a differentiator, though still rare for ANY Fr to win it.Zain, Nolf, Snyder, and Nickel lend credence to your point though.
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Cael lost as a true f so he may or may not have. It looks like this is happening a little more than every other year. Depends on the criteria on how you classify it.
Maybe I am confused on the criteria, but I would add:
JASON TSIRTSIS 2014 (20)
J'Den Cox 2014 (19)
Zain Retherford 2016 (20)
So there is at least 12 20-year old champs in the last 8 years.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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^ Exactly. An impressive feat no doubt but the "name them" comment seemed to imply it was more rare. It's just a silly forum discussion anyway. We need the season to start badly!
I believe that Lowell Lange from Cornell College (and Waterloo West) is still the youngest NCAA champ ever and he was a three-timer.
It only seems that way because it is silly. We are in an era of participation trophies and redshirting 5th graders for athletic purposes. There are already and are going to be more older kids like Mark Hall coming down the pike, they just won't all be as talented as he is.
He and Joseph got some referees to swallow their whistles on their way to their titles in my opinion, but they were on top at the end and that's all that ultimately matters. Neither was the best guy at the weights they won as far as I'm concerned.
Regardless, Iowa fans would have taken Mark Hall in a heartbeat had we been able to land him. I know for damn sure I would have.
And if we're able to land a 28 year old Russian World Champion with 4 years of college eligibilty I'll take him too. We can teach him English and train his vodka dependency out of him!
Now if we can only train NCAA referees to understand they aren't at Rec Hall, we'll really be on to something........
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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We can train his vodka dependency out of him!
Why would we do such a thing!?!
My first HR post, to say, nicely done sir!
It only seems that way because it is silly. We are in an era of participation trophies and redshirting 5th graders for athletic purposes. There are already and are going to be more older kids like Mark Hall coming down the pike, they just won't all be as talented as he is.
He and Joseph got some referees to swallow their whistles on their way to their titles in my opinion, but they were on top at the end and that's all that ultimately matters. Neither was the best guy at the weights they won as far as I'm concerned.
Regardless, Iowa fans would have taken Mark Hall in a heartbeat had we been able to land him. I know for damn sure I would have.
And if we're able to land a 28 year old Russian World Champion with 4 years of college eligibilty I'll take him too. We can teach him English and train his vodka dependency out of him!
Now if we can only train NCAA referees to understand they aren't at Rec Hall, we'll really be on to something........
This. Iowa fans would have bought Mark Hall a life time of adult diapers and ensure if he came here.. The parents of some of these kids have different priorities...some want their kids to have every advantage in the sport. Make jokes about it sure...but it’s not a thing. Don’t care what age you are, winning a title is tough.
Dick Hutton(OkSt) is the oldest true freshman champion at 23. He was a WWII vet. Both he and Lange were in 1947 with 2 other true freshmen (Dick Hauser (Cornell College) and Bill Nelson (UNI)). Hutton won 3 titles. Lost in the finals his junior year to Vern Gagna on referees decision 1-1.
Are you sure it was Vern Gagne? I want to say it was Mad Dog Vashon or The Iron Shiek............
Speaking of Bill Nelson, R.I.P. I met coach down in Az...my parents were on a committee to get wrestling back at Arizona and he was part of it. He got a kick out of it when they told him I was born in Cedar Falls...said us Iowa boys have to stick together.
