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Officiating insight at NCAAs

Mendoza77

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Jan 31, 2015
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At the arena I had the fortune to sit next to a guy that I immediately recognized - he was a ref at NCAAs from 1989 to 2001. He is now the director of evaluators, and often scribbled notes regarding situations during matches, and texted and sometimes called other evaluators who were watching matches, evaluating the calls. We talked quite a bit, and he appreciated that I had a larger perspective than just an Iowa fan. We usually agreed on the controversial calls, and naturally I deferred to his knowledge and experience.

There were two situations that we discussed that stood out. One, he strongly agreed that Hall should have been hit with a second stall late in the finals match, around 10-15 seconds remaining. Bo couldn't continue shooting (in order to force the ref to make the call) because Hall had overhooks on him, but with no attempt to use them, just prevent Bo from shooting. The evaluator said the ref definitely should have called it.

The second situation was the Cruz takedown that beat Gilman. The evaluator immediately got on the phone with someone and discussed it in an animated manner. He then hung up and emphatically stated to me that the call was wrong. He said that the mat ref had indicated that Gilman's hands had touched the mat, thus a TD; however that only applies when the wrestler attempting control is STANDING BEHIND and the wrestler in front touches the mat with at least one hand, even finger (hope you understand what I'm trying to explain). However, that was not the case here, Cruz was on the mat himself, not standing, and Gilman should have definitely been given reaction time, and in fact Thomas DID react and turn away from control (if I recall correctly), but the ref had already called TD due to hands touching mat. The hand touch situation should be called instantaneously, but in most other TD situations a half-second reaction time is factored in.

Evaluator told me that the call was wrong and should have been overturned on review. Later we discussed this point and he agreed that, naturally (it's human nature), most refs don't want to admit that they got the call wrong and so probably when they look at the replay, they're looking for evidence to uphold what they had called. What's needed is an impartial/uninvolved replay official, like the NFL has...and one more camera so there are different angles to review.
 
WOW............just..........WOW............
sigh.gif
 
Insightful. Thanks for sharing and glad they are attempting to work out the many issues. Sucks that he wasn't the referee or a like minded one wasn't referring that match.
 
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I just now watched the match again, on YouTube, and I'm not sure I agree with the evaluator - not sure that was a reaction time situation. I think I agree with the mat ref. :(
 
At the arena I had the fortune to sit next to a guy that I immediately recognized - he was a ref at NCAAs from 1989 to 2001. He is now the director of evaluators, and often scribbled notes regarding situations during matches, and texted and sometimes called other evaluators who were watching matches, evaluating the calls. We talked quite a bit, and he appreciated that I had a larger perspective than just an Iowa fan. We usually agreed on the controversial calls, and naturally I deferred to his knowledge and experience.

There were two situations that we discussed that stood out. One, he strongly agreed that Hall should have been hit with a second stall late in the finals match, around 10-15 seconds remaining. Bo couldn't continue shooting (in order to force the ref to make the call) because Hall had overhooks on him, but with no attempt to use them, just prevent Bo from shooting. The evaluator said the ref definitely should have called it.

The second situation was the Cruz takedown that beat Gilman. The evaluator immediately got on the phone with someone and discussed it in an animated manner. He then hung up and emphatically stated to me that the call was wrong. He said that the mat ref had indicated that Gilman's hands had touched the mat, thus a TD; however that only applies when the wrestler attempting control is STANDING BEHIND and the wrestler in front touches the mat with at least one hand, even finger (hope you understand what I'm trying to explain). However, that was not the case here, Cruz was on the mat himself, not standing, and Gilman should have definitely been given reaction time, and in fact Thomas DID react and turn away from control (if I recall correctly), but the ref had already called TD due to hands touching mat. The hand touch situation should be called instantaneously, but in most other TD situations a half-second reaction time is factored in.


Evaluator told me that the call was wrong and should have been overturned on review. Later we discussed this point and he agreed that, naturally (it's human nature), most refs don't want to admit that they got the call wrong and so probably when they look at the replay, they're looking for evidence to uphold what they had called. What's needed is an impartial/uninvolved replay official, like the NFL has...and one more camera so there are different angles to review.

That is the exact reason (the section I bolded) Berger did not have that TD on Kemerer in OT at Midlands. Berger was on the mat and Kemerer had reaction time.

I agree 100% about having an impartial replay official. It's ridiculous the amount of times a blatant call hasn't been overturned because the ref didn't want to admit he made the wrong call in high stakes matches.

Another situation I find really frustrating is apparently the top wrestler can grab the bottom mans leg if he stands up and a count wont start until the top man goes down to the mat. I saw MULTIPLE instances of this, and it baffled me. Is it in the rules? If so, that is ridiculous.

I also saw a lot of inconsistency in the 'official reviews' there were multiple situations I saw that were identical where it was a super close call for a near TD and made the coaches review it or situations where the officials review it. If it's that close, I think it should always be an official review. Forces coaches to waste challenges, and the process will go quicker if the official realizes he needs to double check it right away. Especially hurts smaller schools who only have 1-3 qualifiers and get 1 challenge.

Another qualm I have with the rules is the issue of leg riding and calling the bottom man for stalling if he stands up when the legs are in. Its the bottom mans job to stand up and get an escape, the top mans job to keep him on the mat and if he gets up, return him to the mat within 5 or so seconds or cut him. Apparently that doesn't apply when the legs are in, the top guy doesn't have to return him, he just gets free riding time, stall calls, and free stall points. Should have to take the legs out and return him to the mat or get called for stalling. Saw this a few times as well. Always been irritating to me.

I saw this mentioned somewhere else, but the whole schtick of the top guy running the bottom guy out of bounds every time he stands up. I see guys get away with this all the time and no stalling call is made. In my opinion that is blatant stalling. I know there can be a gray area in these situations where there can be a lot of momentum if the bottom guy is trying to be fast and explosive and the top guy wants to exert just as much energy following him, then I get it, but there are so many times where you can blatantly see a guy is close to his one and the top guy drives him out of bounds or drops to legs and runs out of bounds in his 'attempt' to return to the mat.

Just a few situations that stood out to me at different times in the tournament that left me feeling rather sour.
 
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The "video review" is comical. It is rare that the officials will overturn their own call, even when there is video evidence that they should. There should be an impartial evaluator at the score table.
Great points all around. Couldn't agree more with everything. Been saying an independent video ref was needed since they instituted video review. I've been told it's cost prohibitive for a sport like wrestling; not sure how valid that excuse is.
 
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Unfortunately none of this matters. When the guy in charge can't enforce his team of officials to make the right call, even when given an opportunity to review in some cases, then it's pointless. Might as well get rid of video review so it's no longer a lung timeout. This is why the rules need to reduce referee input.
 
I agree with pretty much everything said here. If they can't make the reviews meaningful and accurate, they need to do away with them. They extend matches, give long lung timeouts (and some coaches are very good at using them this way) and seldom get the call right anyway. I've said from the beginning it is stupid to have the same ref(s) who made the call review it.
Haven't watched a video of Gilan's match yet, but in real time I said the same thing, it should have been overturned.
 
the reviews are getting out of hand...While it is nice to make sure (supposedly) the right calls are made....the process is completely disrupting the flow of the matches....seems like coaches are reviewing stuff that they know they won't win because sometimes what do they have to lose and maybe their wrestler needs a blow....honestly I would like to see a stat on the percentage of times calls are overturned..I'm guessing less than 10%.....I do like the idea of an evaluator at every mat maybe they could make that a official and alow them to call for "official" reviews....take it out of coaches hands
 
Great thread, thanks for posting it.

OP, did you happen to discuss the Bo Nickal TD from the finals with the evaluator? What about the T Ryan challenge in the B Jordan match regarding the 2 + 2 situation. Curious what his thoughts were on those.

Also, it would have been nice to pick his brain regarding some of the discussions we're having on here regarding why some situations are almost always called stalling and other situations are very rarely called stalling. Also the riding time pros and cons.
 
the reviews are getting out of hand...While it is nice to make sure (supposedly) the right calls are made....the process is completely disrupting the flow of the matches....seems like coaches are reviewing stuff that they know they won't win because sometimes what do they have to lose and maybe their wrestler needs a blow....honestly I would like to see a stat on the percentage of times calls are overturned..I'm guessing less than 10%.....I do like the idea of an evaluator at every mat maybe they could make that a official and alow them to call for "official" reviews....take it out of coaches hands
Agree with all, especially with the 3rd official for the reviews.

Would work great for tournaments because you could have just 1 or 2 of these officials, roam around to the different mats for these reviews. When the official comes up to the mat, they ONLY know what call is being reviewed, they should NOT know what the call on the mat is. That way that won't know if they are upholding or overturning the call.

Obviously that wouldn't work in a dual, but still have/need the review official.
 
Agree with all, especially with the 3rd official for the reviews.

Would work great for tournaments because you could have just 1 or 2 of these officials, roam around to the different mats for these reviews. When the official comes up to the mat, they ONLY know what call is being reviewed, they should NOT know what the call on the mat is. That way that won't know if they are upholding or overturning the call.

Obviously that wouldn't work in a dual, but still have/need the review official.

Your point about not knowing the match details or the call made on the mat that is the subject of review is a really good one. Very smart.
 
The official was just raising up his hand to hit Mark with stalling, when Mark shot in, and took Jordan down, with 10 seconds left. The replay shows it, that call is coming.

With, or without that call, Hall was shooting. The takedown makes the call/non call moot.
 
That is the exact reason (the section I bolded) Berger did not have that TD on Kemerer in OT at Midlands. Berger was on the mat and Kemerer had reaction time.

I agree 100% about having an impartial replay official. It's ridiculous the amount of times a blatant call hasn't been overturned because the ref didn't want to admit he made the wrong call in high stakes matches.

Another situation I find really frustrating is apparently the top wrestler can grab the bottom mans leg if he stands up and a count wont start until the top man goes down to the mat. I saw MULTIPLE instances of this, and it baffled me. Is it in the rules? If so, that is ridiculous.

I also saw a lot of inconsistency in the 'official reviews' there were multiple situations I saw that were identical where it was a super close call for a near TD and made the coaches review it or situations where the officials review it. If it's that close, I think it should always be an official review. Forces coaches to waste challenges, and the process will go quicker if the official realizes he needs to double check it right away. Especially hurts smaller schools who only have 1-3 qualifiers and get 1 challenge.

Another qualm I have with the rules is the issue of leg riding and calling the bottom man for stalling if he stands up when the legs are in. Its the bottom mans job to stand up and get an escape, the top mans job to keep him on the mat and if he gets up, return him to the mat within 5 or so seconds or cut him. Apparently that doesn't apply when the legs are in, the top guy doesn't have to return him, he just gets free riding time, stall calls, and free stall points. Should have to take the legs out and return him to the mat or get called for stalling. Saw this a few times as well. Always been irritating to me.

I saw this mentioned somewhere else, but the whole schtick of the top guy running the bottom guy out of bounds every time he stands up. I see guys get away with this all the time and no stalling call is made. In my opinion that is blatant stalling. I know there can be a gray area in these situations where there can be a lot of momentum if the bottom guy is trying to be fast and explosive and the top guy wants to exert just as much energy following him, then I get it, but there are so many times where you can blatantly see a guy is close to his one and the top guy drives him out of bounds or drops to legs and runs out of bounds in his 'attempt' to return to the mat.

Just a few situations that stood out to me at different times in the tournament that left me feeling rather sour.
While on your feet it the same as the rear standing position. You have to be attempting to return the man. The problem is that the top guy will grab the leg then stand up to stop the count. Rule needs tweaking.

Obviously can't agree with you more on the legs in while standing issue since I had a thread on it a month or so ago. If you know someone on the rules committee keep fighting to get that one changed.
 
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Another qualm I have with the rules is the issue of leg riding and calling the bottom man for stalling if he stands up when the legs are in. Its the bottom mans job to stand up and get an escape, the top mans job to keep him on the mat and if he gets up, return him to the mat within 5 or so seconds or cut him. Apparently that doesn't apply when the legs are in, the top guy doesn't have to return him, he just gets free riding time, stall calls, and free stall points. Should have to take the legs out and return him to the mat or get called for stalling. Saw this a few times as well. Always been irritating to me.

Legs are a pet peeve of mine all around. It's illegal to ride parallel; unless you have a leg in, then you can ride parallel all day long. The stand-up is the number one escape; but you aren't allowed to stand if the man has a leg in. Now, my first thought is that it's not automatically a potentially dangerous situation when the bottom man stands up -- I think that's just nonsense. But so long as that's the thought, then the ruling ought to be that the top man has to release the leg or get his with a stall. There are several options that are reasonable, but hitting the bottom man with a stall is ludicrous.

I liken it to the ridiculous but long-standing rule that if the bottom man's upper body is out of bounds he can't get pinned and can't give up back points. That was, in a word, stupid. At least it eventually was fixed; hopefully this eventually gets worked out.
 
Agree with all, especially with the 3rd official for the reviews.

Would work great for tournaments because you could have just 1 or 2 of these officials, roam around to the different mats for these reviews. When the official comes up to the mat, they ONLY know what call is being reviewed, they should NOT know what the call on the mat is. That way that won't know if they are upholding or overturning the call.

Obviously that wouldn't work in a dual, but still have/need the review official.

I I think disagree about not knowing what the call was. The call on the mat should be upheld unless there is clear and convincing evidence that it was wrong, so they have to know what the call is.
 
I I think disagree about not knowing what the call was. The call on the mat should be upheld unless there is clear and convincing evidence that it was wrong, so they have to know what the call is.
Good point. I wonder if you could still review it without knowing the call. Then once the review decision is made, find out the original call, then determine the convincing part...I just wouldn't want to go back to the same issue where they don't want to overturn the call.
 
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I I think disagree about not knowing what the call was. The call on the mat should be upheld unless there is clear and convincing evidence that it was wrong, so they have to know what the call is.

But as we've seen in practice, there is incentive to confirm the calls of the officials on the mat.
 
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Saved by out of bounds?
Heil match, if that happened in bounds I think he might of been done. Another Cowboy saved by the out of bounds. Also I hate that guys step onto the carpet to save them. This happened for sure in one match and prob a few others. Only need to increase the mat size a little bit to fix that.
 
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Agree with all, especially with the 3rd official for the reviews.

Would work great for tournaments because you could have just 1 or 2 of these officials, roam around to the different mats for these reviews. When the official comes up to the mat, they ONLY know what call is being reviewed, they should NOT know what the call on the mat is. That way that won't know if they are upholding or overturning the call.

Obviously that wouldn't work in a dual, but still have/need the review official.

I forgot to mention that in my last post. Everyone I have discussed this with thinks that the neutral ref should not know what the original call was. This COULD be done at a dual meet if the arbitrator was isolated somehow, like being in a back room. I also agree with using multiple camera angles, but understand that could be cost prohibitive. Many meets are televised and most bare recorded for multiple reasons. I believe these ought to be at the reviewer's disposal and would not add cost to the process.
 
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