ADVERTISEMENT

Opinion: Joe Manchin’s arguments for the filibuster keep getting more ludicrous

cigaretteman

HR King
May 29, 2001
77,614
59,176
113
By Greg Sargent
Columnist
Today at 11:11 a.m. EST


Everyone had a grand old time mocking Sen. Joe Manchin III for claiming on Tuesday that we’ve had the filibuster for 232 years. This is historically false. What’s more, the West Virginia Democrat’s deeper argument here — that in some sense the filibuster preserves a vision of the Senate in keeping with that of the framers — is also profoundly off-base.
Opinions to start the day, in your inbox. Sign up.
But now Manchin has expanded even further on that deeper argument. And the case he made in this regard captures the essential fallacy of the pro-filibuster position as clearly as one could possibly expect.
The stakes are high. Democrats are making one final push for a package of protections for voting rights and democracy. Given uniform GOP opposition, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) will hold a vote soon on whether to suspend the filibuster to pass them.



To his credit, Manchin is open to more modest filibuster reforms, and he has seriously engaged the debate over democracy for months. But by all indications, he and Sen. Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) will oppose that filibuster carve-out, which all but dooms passage.
Manchin has now offered a new justification for this position.
“I mean, voting is very important. It is a bedrock of democracy,” Manchin told reporters Tuesday. “But to break the opportunity for the minority to participate completely — that’s just not who we are.”








Manchin signals GOP buy-in needed for Senate rules change








Sen. Joe Manchin III (D-W.Va.) on Jan. 4 said his “preference” is that any changes to the Senate’s filibuster rules include Republican support. (The Washington Post)

This idea, that even a temporary filibuster carve-out betrays “who we are,” essentially posits that the Senate supermajority requirement is in some sense more faithful to American liberal constitutionalism than protecting voting rights is.

This is absurd. First, the idea that nixing the filibuster would “break the opportunity for the minority to participate completely” is unintentionally revealing about Manchin’s true stance. It’s false on its face: Needing a simple majority to pass legislation doesn’t stop senators from the minority party from entering into negotiations with the majority party to try to influence said legislation.


In fact, ending the filibuster might increase the incentive for a bloc of GOP senators to seek such negotiations. Without it, bills could pass with a majority of fewer than 60 votes, meaning, say, five moderate Republicans would have more opportunities to get on legislation with a real chance of passage, burnishing their bipartisan cred while delivering for constituents. Moderate Democrats who want to be seen working with Republicans would help that happen.
What ending the filibuster actually would stop is the opportunity for the minority party to participate entirely on its own terms. With the filibuster, virtually nothing can pass. This facilitates and encourages a deliberate opposition strategy of denying the president’s party legislative victories to make the government under that party more dysfunctional.

This is the reality of the “opportunity for the minority to participate” that Manchin is personally enabling. And it actually reduces the opportunity for more bipartisan legislation to pass — the opposite of what he suggests.
E.J. Dionne: The hypocrisy argument on the filibuster is itself phony
Second, you know who is actually working hard to “break the opportunity of the minority to participate”? GOP-controlled state legislatures are. They are passing restrictions on voting access in many states, and they’re doing so by simple majority — on a largely partisan basis.


Manchin himself agrees this is a serious problem. That’s why he supports the Freedom to Vote Act, which would curb such GOP efforts by creating baseline standards for early voting, same-day registration and voting by mail, while also limiting partisan capture of election machinery.

What Manchin opposes is achieving those monumentally important things on a partisan basis. But here’s the rub: Either Republicans will keep restricting voting on a partisan basis, or Democrats will protect and expand voting access on a partisan basis. Partisanship will prevail either way. The only question is which partisanship prevails.
By the way, protecting democracy on a partisan basis actually is “who we are,” or at least who we have been. As Jamelle Bouie has detailed, the Civil War amendments that created the foundations for voting rights, and some of the big congressional efforts at civil rights protections that followed, were not bipartisan affairs.


“The fight to protect and advance the civil and voting rights of all Americans has always been more partisan than not,” says Bouie.

Manchin hankers for a time when “who we are” was defined by broad bipartisan participation in the great civil and voting rights legislation in the 1960s. But as Bouie notes, that has little application today:
We are living in an age of high partisanship and deep polarization, where one party has an interest in a broad electorate and an open conception of voting rights, and the other does not. If Congress is going to pass a voting rights bill of any kind, it is going to be on a partisan basis, much the way it was from the end of the Civil War until well into the 20th century.
There is no bipartisan resolution available here. Manchin himself knows this: He spent months searching in vain for GOP support for democracy protections. So Manchin cannot achieve the bipartisanship that he hopes will once again define “who we are.”
Here’s the unpleasant truth Manchin must confront: "Who we are” in this context will be defined by partisanship either way. By refusing to allow Democrats to act, Manchin is inescapably facilitating a more destructive form of partisanship — one that he himself says threatens the “bedrock of democracy” — than the one he is almost single-handedly blocking, and ensuring that the former will define “who we are,” rather than the latter.

 
Manchin is not a bad faith negotiator,.. He simply stakes out a position and then holds to it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ihhawk
This isn't true. He won't vote for things that are his idea. Bad faith. All Manchin is doing is helping McConnell run out the clock.

He supports the bill but there's a limit to what he's willing to do to pass it,.. seems like an adult position.
 
I find it stunning that Democrats are so short sighted to want this. Do they think they will never be the minority again?

How comfortable would Dems have been with Trump in the WH and R’s controlling the House and Senate? Hell I’m a Republican and I wouldn’t want that.

We need more compromise and finding middle ground, not less. This will divide the country even further if that’s even possible. This would be a complete disaster for the country. If you want this you’re a party over country hack.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ihhawk
He supports the bill but there's a limit to what he's willing to do to pass it,.. seems like an adult position.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when he doesn't vote for ideas that were his. He's definitely an adult...an adult who has lined his pockets with millions from coal, big pharma, oil, etc...at the expense of the rest of us. He's a scammer.
 
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when he doesn't vote for ideas that were his.

And I believe that's exactly what I said,.. Manchin put forth a compromise voting rights bill but there are limits to what he is willing to do to pass it.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Tom Paris
Schumer made a much better argument to keep the filibuster.....it's critical to save democracy

“Bottom line is very simple: The ideologues in the Senate want to turn what the Founding Fathers called ‘the cooling saucer of democracy’ into the rubber stamp of dictatorship. We will not let them. They want, because they can’t get their way on every judge, to change the rules in mid-stream, to wash away 200 years of history. They want to make this country into a banana republic, where if you don’t get your way, you change the rules. Are we going to let them? It’ll be a doomsday for democracy if we do.


 
manchin is a republican at this point. he is using them as a crutch to put a halt to anything the GOP doesnt support.

if they get rid of the filibuster, the dems would cry bloody murder when republicans gain control and enact their agenda. I would chalk it up to elections having consequences.

We need to get rid of gerrymandering as well
 
manchin is a republican at this point. he is using them as a crutch to put a halt to anything the GOP doesnt support.

if they get rid of the filibuster, the dems would cry bloody murder when republicans gain control and enact their agenda. I would chalk it up to elections having consequences.

We need to get rid of gerrymandering as well
If the democrats don't change the rules for voting rights, now, they won't be in power again. The minority party is doing what needs to be done for them to hold power. They don't have the numbers and they know it. So they change the rules/laws aggressively, and soon it's going to be game over. They are brilliantly evil at what they do.
 
If the democrats don't change the rules for voting rights, now, they won't be in power again.
This is complete nonsense.

H-Y-P-E-R-B-O-L-E

There is no way you actually believe that. So desperate to justify this ridiculous power grab.
 
This is complete nonsense.

H-Y-P-E-R-B-O-L-E

There is no way you actually believe that. So desperate to justify this ridiculous power grab.
Head in sand, I see. Power grab? Kind of like voting not to certify an election? Kind of like encouraging your base to storm the Capitol? Kind of like gerrymandering? Kind of like making it more difficult for people you don't want to vote? All based off of a massive lie? The minority party doesn't have the votes so they have to cheat, so yeah, if we don't protect voting rights for all Americans we are effed...but you don't care, because your side is rigging the game. Another perfect 1930's German.

Nahhhh...nothing to see, right?
 
Head in sand, I see. Power grab? Kind of like voting not to certify an election? Kind of like encouraging your base to storm the Capitol? Kind of like gerrymandering? Kind of like making it more difficult for people you don't want to vote? All based off of a massive lie? The minority party doesn't have the votes so they have to cheat, so yeah, if we don't protect voting rights for all Americans we are effed...but you don't care, because your side is rigging the game. Another perfect 1930's German.

Nahhhh...nothing to see, right?
Yeah great, ignore the other repercussions of getting rid of the filibuster. Nationalize elections with Democrats writing all the laws themselves. THAT will solve this! LOL. This is insanity.

Then when the Republicans are in charge they can change them back! Or worse! Won’t that be great???
 
This is complete nonsense.

H-Y-P-E-R-B-O-L-E

There is no way you actually believe that. So desperate to justify this ridiculous power grab.
Have you been paying attention to the laws republicans are pushing through to hold the power in elections in states like Georgia?
 
  • Like
Reactions: cigaretteman
How do you justify the republican power grab of election control in states like Georgia?
Describe what is actually happening in Georgia that you have a problem with. I’ve seen inaccurate reports and rumors, but haven’t dived into it. I’d appreciate a good link if you have it.
 
By Greg Sargent
Columnist
Today at 11:11 a.m. EST


Everyone had a grand old time mocking Sen. Joe Manchin III for claiming on Tuesday that we’ve had the filibuster for 232 years. This is historically false. What’s more, the West Virginia Democrat’s deeper argument here — that in some sense the filibuster preserves a vision of the Senate in keeping with that of the framers — is also profoundly off-base.
Opinions to start the day, in your inbox. Sign up.
But now Manchin has expanded even further on that deeper argument. And the case he made in this regard captures the essential fallacy of the pro-filibuster position as clearly as one could possibly expect.
The stakes are high. Democrats are making one final push for a package of protections for voting rights and democracy. Given uniform GOP opposition, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) will hold a vote soon on whether to suspend the filibuster to pass them.



To his credit, Manchin is open to more modest filibuster reforms, and he has seriously engaged the debate over democracy for months. But by all indications, he and Sen. Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) will oppose that filibuster carve-out, which all but dooms passage.
Manchin has now offered a new justification for this position.
“I mean, voting is very important. It is a bedrock of democracy,” Manchin told reporters Tuesday. “But to break the opportunity for the minority to participate completely — that’s just not who we are.”








Manchin signals GOP buy-in needed for Senate rules change








Sen. Joe Manchin III (D-W.Va.) on Jan. 4 said his “preference” is that any changes to the Senate’s filibuster rules include Republican support. (The Washington Post)

This idea, that even a temporary filibuster carve-out betrays “who we are,” essentially posits that the Senate supermajority requirement is in some sense more faithful to American liberal constitutionalism than protecting voting rights is.

This is absurd. First, the idea that nixing the filibuster would “break the opportunity for the minority to participate completely” is unintentionally revealing about Manchin’s true stance. It’s false on its face: Needing a simple majority to pass legislation doesn’t stop senators from the minority party from entering into negotiations with the majority party to try to influence said legislation.


In fact, ending the filibuster might increase the incentive for a bloc of GOP senators to seek such negotiations. Without it, bills could pass with a majority of fewer than 60 votes, meaning, say, five moderate Republicans would have more opportunities to get on legislation with a real chance of passage, burnishing their bipartisan cred while delivering for constituents. Moderate Democrats who want to be seen working with Republicans would help that happen.
What ending the filibuster actually would stop is the opportunity for the minority party to participate entirely on its own terms. With the filibuster, virtually nothing can pass. This facilitates and encourages a deliberate opposition strategy of denying the president’s party legislative victories to make the government under that party more dysfunctional.

This is the reality of the “opportunity for the minority to participate” that Manchin is personally enabling. And it actually reduces the opportunity for more bipartisan legislation to pass — the opposite of what he suggests.
E.J. Dionne: The hypocrisy argument on the filibuster is itself phony
Second, you know who is actually working hard to “break the opportunity of the minority to participate”? GOP-controlled state legislatures are. They are passing restrictions on voting access in many states, and they’re doing so by simple majority — on a largely partisan basis.


Manchin himself agrees this is a serious problem. That’s why he supports the Freedom to Vote Act, which would curb such GOP efforts by creating baseline standards for early voting, same-day registration and voting by mail, while also limiting partisan capture of election machinery.

What Manchin opposes is achieving those monumentally important things on a partisan basis. But here’s the rub: Either Republicans will keep restricting voting on a partisan basis, or Democrats will protect and expand voting access on a partisan basis. Partisanship will prevail either way. The only question is which partisanship prevails.
By the way, protecting democracy on a partisan basis actually is “who we are,” or at least who we have been. As Jamelle Bouie has detailed, the Civil War amendments that created the foundations for voting rights, and some of the big congressional efforts at civil rights protections that followed, were not bipartisan affairs.


“The fight to protect and advance the civil and voting rights of all Americans has always been more partisan than not,” says Bouie.

Manchin hankers for a time when “who we are” was defined by broad bipartisan participation in the great civil and voting rights legislation in the 1960s. But as Bouie notes, that has little application today:

There is no bipartisan resolution available here. Manchin himself knows this: He spent months searching in vain for GOP support for democracy protections. So Manchin cannot achieve the bipartisanship that he hopes will once again define “who we are.”
Here’s the unpleasant truth Manchin must confront: "Who we are” in this context will be defined by partisanship either way. By refusing to allow Democrats to act, Manchin is inescapably facilitating a more destructive form of partisanship — one that he himself says threatens the “bedrock of democracy” — than the one he is almost single-handedly blocking, and ensuring that the former will define “who we are,” rather than the latter.

Filibusters are the antichrist if your party is in the majority, but when the shoe is on the other foot, not so much.
 
Describe what is actually happening in Georgia that you have a problem with. I’ve seen inaccurate reports and rumors, but haven’t dived into it. I’d appreciate a good link if you have it.
I'm most concerned about taking the power out of Sec of State and the creation of partisan election boards that will have the power to throw votes aside.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: cigaretteman
Head in sand, I see. Power grab? Kind of like voting not to certify an election? Kind of like encouraging your base to storm the Capitol? Kind of like gerrymandering? Kind of like making it more difficult for people you don't want to vote? All based off of a massive lie? The minority party doesn't have the votes so they have to cheat, so yeah, if we don't protect voting rights for all Americans we are effed...but you don't care, because your side is rigging the game. Another perfect 1930's German.

Nahhhh...nothing to see, right?
Dude, why so hysterical? Your imagination is getting in the way of facts. Every state offers early voting days, and Georgia even added an extra day. Biden got certified as POTUS and took office as scheduled.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT