OT-Iowa State Boys Tourney seedings

[Obviously Oblivious]

I see that the top seeds in 1A & 2A both lost in the first round today. How can the brackets be so poorly seeded? Are the overpaid suits in the IAHSAAU administration responsible for the bracketed seedings at the State tourney? I know this is never an exact science, but come on! Iowa City West a #6 seed in 4A? I'd be utterly shocked if they don't find a way to the championship game.

 

[StormHawk42]

Record. Quality of opponent is not taken into consideration. Every year you have a tiny school from a tiny conference go 25-0 or 24-1 and then get smoked by an 8 loss team who plays bigger schools all the time.

Not really sure there's an easier way to do it

 

[hawkeye_fan321]

Record. Quality of opponent is not taken into consideration. Every year you have a tiny school from a tiny conference go 25-0 or 24-1 and then get smoked by an 8 loss team who plays bigger schools all the time.

Not really sure there's an easier way to do it

This. I think Wahlert was the 7 seed last year and ended up winning it all. They're the fifth team this year, and I think they win it all again. They have played arguably the toughest schedule in owa at any level over the last two years (they are 3A but play a lot of 4A teams).

 

[Obviously Oblivious]

Record. Quality of opponent is not taken into consideration. Every year you have a tiny school from a tiny conference go 25-0 or 24-1 and then get smoked by an 8 loss team who plays bigger schools all the time.

Not really sure there's an easier way to do it

Thanks for the reply. Maybe we can get Ken Pomeroy to set up something for this purpose?

I'm a numbers and stats geek, but his computer models are way over my head.

 

[yerpHAWK]

Thanks for the reply. Maybe we can get Ken Pomeroy to set up something for this purpose?

I'm a numbers and stats geek, but his computer models are way over my head.

BCMoore does a similar type system for Iowa high school basketball.

 

[herkyihawks]

There is a website called bcmoore that is like kenpom. Usually a predictor.

 

[GoHawks2009]

They could do it like the Union does the Girls Tournament, however, then you're talking about the Association being in control of the Top 10 rankings for each class....and based on all the whining and complaining and ire that is directed towards the State on a daily basis, I'm doubting that will ever happen.

The IAHSAA is basically the sports version of the national government/POTUS. Everyone seems to find something different that they don't like and feel obligated to comment/complain about it (when they really don't need to at all).

 

[EpenesaEpenesa]

I saw a 60-27 score in 2A. How does that even happen, unless there were some VERY, poor districts

 

[jdv77]

Here are the seeding rules. As previously mentioned, win/loss record is the primary criterion, without regard to strength of schedule. Strength of schedule is only considered in breaking a tie between two teams with the same win/loss record. My understanding is that strength of schedule used to be a more important part of the formula. That was criticized, too, because it "penalized" teams if their natural geographical rivals or their conference included a mix of schools in different classes.

"CLASSES 1A, 2A, 3A, AND 4A


The seeding procedure to be used will be the regular season won/loss record of each school with the highest percent of wins receiving the highest seeds. If there is a tie in the seeding procedure:

Step 1-- head-to-head competition during the regular season games. If the tied teams did not meet or one team did not win
more games than the other in head-to-head competition and the tie still remains;

Step 2-- the strength of schedule point system will be used:

4 points for a victory over a 4A school
3 points for a victory over a 3A school
2 points for a victory over a 2A school
1 point for a victory over a 1A school, with the highest per game average determining the seeds.

NOTE: If this step places one of the teams in a tie on a bracket and there are still schools tied;

Step 3-- go back to step 1. If tie still remains after step 1, step 2, and step 3;

Step 4-- For the 2015 tournament, the FIRST alphabetical school will receive the highest seed.

Seed #1 will play seed #8; seed #2 will play seed #7, seed #3 will play seed #6; seed #4 will play seed #5."

 

[DavenportHawk8]

Anyone see the article about how schools are upset with the length of the state tournaments? I read it the other day and there are some coaches who are upset with how long the state tournament is. Apparently its hard for these small schools to stay down there for a 5 day stretch and they want it shortened for academic/financial reasons.

How does Illinois do it? Don't they have Sectionals & Super-Sectionals and then only 4 teams make it to the "state" tournament? Or do they do it differently? I think i remember seeing they have 1A/2A one weekend and then 3A/4A the following weekend. Am I right on this?

I would think this is something that both the IGHSAU & IAHSAA should look into. Getting these teams to stay down in Des Moines for an entire week is tough on both academics and $$ from the school districts. I could see having the sectionals/super sectional games at sites like Cedar Rapids, Davenport, Dubuque, Des Moines and other sites. Then only have 4 teams go down and do it a Friday/Sat set up or even a Thurs/Fri/Sat set up. This way its only 3 days as opposed to 5-6 days.

 

[EpenesaEpenesa]

Anyone see the article about how schools are upset with the length of the state tournaments? I read it the other day and there are some coaches who are upset with how long the state tournament is. Apparently its hard for these small schools to stay down there for a 5 day stretch and they want it shortened for academic/financial reasons.

How does Illinois do it? Don't they have Sectionals & Super-Sectionals and then only 4 teams make it to the "state" tournament? Or do they do it differently? I think i remember seeing they have 1A/2A one weekend and then 3A/4A the following weekend. Am I right on this?

I would think this is something that both the IGHSAU & IAHSAA should look into. Getting these teams to stay down in Des Moines for an entire week is tough on both academics and $$ from the school districts. I could see having the sectionals/super sectional games at sites like Cedar Rapids, Davenport, Dubuque, Des Moines and other sites. Then only have 4 teams go down and do it a Friday/Sat set up or even a Thurs/Fri/Sat set up. This way its only 3 days as opposed to 5-6 days.

That's what Illinois does. 4 teams go, semis and championship are on back to back nights on Friday/Saturday. It is pretty insane when you think about it, if you win Monday, you're staying until Friday whether it be the consolation or championship. I did it in high school, we won Monday and then didn't play until Thursday in the semis, it was a long wait just sitting around.

 

[hawkssox1]

That's what Illinois does. 4 teams go, semis and championship are on back to back nights on Friday/Saturday. It is pretty insane when you think about it, if you win Monday, you're staying until Friday whether it be the consolation or championship. I did it in high school, we won Monday and then didn't play until Thursday in the semis, it was a long wait just sitting around.

Makes way too much sense for the IAHSAA.

 

[LarryMullenJr.]

The long stays and the 3rd place games are moronic cash grabs from the association. The kids are the ones suffering for the financial benefit of the adults......where have we heard that before?

 

[RockEyeState]

I see that Spirit Lake plays CR Xavier tonight. (Kreiner) Should be an interesting match-up.

#goHawks

 

[MepoDawg#]

why don't teams just go home if win Monday and not play until Thursday? Probably a lot cheaper. Plus they won't miss as much school. If they play early enough in the day, I know our school just cancels classes for students to go. A couple years ago we had 5 make up days as a result of no school due to sports playing at state (volleyball, wrestling duals, and girl basketball).

 

[whatsup13579er]

Step 2-- the strength of schedule point system will be used:

4 points for a victory over a 4A school
3 points for a victory over a 3A school
2 points for a victory over a 2A school
1 point for a victory over a 1A school, with the highest per game average determining the seeds.

Seed #1 will play seed #8; seed #2 will play seed #7, seed #3 will play seed #6; seed #4 will play seed #5."

This should be the seeding procedure and Wahlert is a perfect example.

This year it wouldn't make much of a difference in seeding but Wahlert's 19-5 record is much more impressive than MOC's 21-3. MOC is the only 3A school in a 1A/2A conference and didn't play a 3A school until districts. There might not be a big difference in a lot of 2A/3A schools but there is a big difference between 2A schools and 4A schools and Wahlert's schedule is littered with 4A schools.

 

[EpenesaEpenesa]

why don't teams just go home if win Monday and not play until Thursday? Probably a lot cheaper. Plus they won't miss as much school. If they play early enough in the day, I know our school just cancels classes for students to go. A couple years ago we had 5 make up days as a result of no school due to sports playing at state (volleyball, wrestling duals, and girl basketball).

Depends how far from Des Moines you are. We were 4 hours away. Get home late Monday night, school Tuesday, then turn around and go back to Des Moines Wednesday for a Thursday afternoon game. Pretty quick turnarounds. I guess you could take the 4 hour bus ride the morning of the semis on Thursday, but that probably isnt the best idea either.

 

[IamHawkeye]

That's what Illinois does. 4 teams go, semis and championship are on back to back nights on Friday/Saturday. It is pretty insane when you think about it, if you win Monday, you're staying until Friday whether it be the consolation or championship. I did it in high school, we won Monday and then didn't play until Thursday in the semis, it was a long wait just sitting around.

Illinois is used to this. Iowa is used to kids getting to play in Des Moines. Not sure from your post, but I remember Illinois playing semis and finals in the same day. Now that seems too much for kids, esp. ones without much depth.

 

[OskaloosaHawk]

Pella Christian is a perfect example. They are a school of about 200 students, yet play in a conference of 3A and 4A schools and next year add Indianola to the conference. Here are their 9 losses on the year:

Pella (84-45)
Norwalk (62-59)
Grinnell (85-78)
Dallas Center - Grimes (58-55)
Newton (62-56) - also beat them this year
Oskaloosa (54-51) - also beat them this year
Pella (56-50)
Norwalk (61-38)
Knoxville (60-58)

I think they were about 10-0 when they actually played schools in the same class as them and their average winning margin in post-season play before State was by about 20-25 points. It's almost a relief for them when they get done playing conference games.

As for the 60 - 27 game between Cascade and Osage, Cascade probably held a 6" height advantage over Osage at every position on the court. And it wasn't that they were huge, it was that Osage was small. Their twin guards couldn't have been over 5' tall. They looked like "little people" (is that the PC way to say that?). It was an uphill battle to say the least for Osage.

 

[hawkiharv]

I saw a 60-27 score in 2A. How does that even happen, unless there were some VERY, poor districts

Well.....when you have a guy thats 6'7 and the other team doesn't have a player over 6'2......Osage's strength was perimeter and Cascade shut that down.....doesn't seem like rocket science to me when you research the facts....Osage lost to West Fork 2x, North Butler and ??? don't remember who else. They are a good team but Cascade was just that much better.....Better question is 1a top seed getting smoked????

 

[Dauminator]

I could see some people not liking the idea of the Illinois model. There's supposed to be something about getting the trip to Des Moines, and it looks to me like the IHSAA wants the maximum number of teams getting that reward. I'm not subscribing to that thinking, just calling it out.

Another idea is scrapping the stupid district format. Bring the regular season champs to DSM. I hate the idea that a team can dominate all year, then have one off-night in districts and miss out. You'd certainly even out that quality of teams across the board by doing that.

Ideally, you need to establish even conferences and balanced schedules. Then you can have all conference champs (or division champs, whatever, they keep changing the nomenclature) meet up in sectionals, then a four-team state. That sounds good to me.

 

[iahawkeyes17]

The long stays and the 3rd place games are moronic cash grabs from the association. The kids are the ones suffering for the financial benefit of the adults......where have we heard that before?

I don't see how the kids are the ones suffering. 3rd place game they get to play one more game in their season and they miss one more day of school if they aren't already on spring break. I'm sure HS kids are really upset they miss a day of school. It's not like college ball where these kids leave multiple times throughout the season the day before a game and come back night after the game, minus the one week of the state tourney for the few select teams winning. Most HS teams play once during the week and play with a hr or so from home usually. Plus a big difference between missing college and HS classes with course work.

 

[whatsup13579er]

The idea that going to DSM for 5 days is somehow hurting these kids academically is absurd. Just stop.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

Are district and substate brackets decided before the season starts?

 

[LarryMullenJr.]

I don't see how the kids are the ones suffering. 3rd place game they get to play one more game in their season and they miss one more day of school if they aren't already on spring break. I'm sure HS kids are really upset they miss a day of school. It's not like college ball where these kids leave multiple times throughout the season the day before a game and come back night after the game, minus the one week of the state tourney for the few select teams winning. Most HS teams play once during the week and play with a hr or so from home usually. Plus a big difference between missing college and HS classes with course work.

I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but as pointed out, the smaller schools can show up on Monday and possibly be gone the entire week. Yes, the kids love it I'm sure, but it's still 5 days out of school.
Again, I'm not the overly prickly adult, but just saying.

 

[StormHawk42]

Are district and substate brackets decided before the season starts?

No. But for some reason, they are based on the record of the first 15 games of the season and not all 21, which I find bizarre but not a huge deal I guess.

 

[StormHawk42]

I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but as pointed out, the smaller schools can show up on Monday and possibly be gone the entire week. Yes, the kids love it I'm sure, but it's still 5 days out of school.
Again, I'm not the overly prickly adult, but just saying.

If the whole school misses for a day game, it's supposed to be made up at the end of the year. As for the players, I know I'm generalizing, but many times the players are some of the best students in small schools. Wouldn't worry about that too much but that's just me.

 

[whatsup13579er]

Are district and substate brackets decided before the season starts?

No. Districts are usually announced midway thru the season and are seeded base off of games 5-15 I believe.

 

[FullTilt]

I coach high school in Colorado in the largest class. Out here there are 60 something odd teams. The top 48 make the tournament. The committee ranks all 1-48 just like an NCAA tournament. That way you never have any "luck of the draw" districts. Seeds 1-4 get a first round bye. The lower seed in 5-12 hosts the first round game. Round 2 and 3 are played at the higher seeded teams court. Great 8 is played at the Denver Coliseum and the semis/finals at CU in Boulder. I like how Iowa plays the last 3 rounds all together in the same site. Outside of that I take Colorado's method hands-down. I believe next year they are changing the way it is seeded and getting rid of the committee. They are going to an RPI based method (BCMoore). The current debate is how the model will properly weight out of state games (no good method here).

 

[kzoohawk80]

Or we could just keep doing it the same way it's been done for 100 years.

Seems to be working out OK, but I guess bitching is just more fun for some people.

This post reminds me of the settlers guy from direct tv commercials. "We're settlers we settle for things."

 

[SJeagleEye]

They are doing a terrible job so far. #2 lost to #7 in 1A as well. Problem is, they just go by records. Problem is, teams play bigger or smaller teams in conference. Can't really go by overall records.

This happens a lot in 1A and 2A especially.

Some teams like Danville play nobody. Meanwhile, the team they lost to plays a ton of larger schools.

Wasn't even close either, they dominated them.

Not sure how the state should seed teams, but I do know that for 1A and 2A, it's hard to judge em based mainly on overall record.

 

[GoHawks2009]

why don't teams just go home if win Monday and not play until Thursday? Probably a lot cheaper. Plus they won't miss as much school. If they play early enough in the day, I know our school just cancels classes for students to go. A couple years ago we had 5 make up days as a result of no school due to sports playing at state (volleyball, wrestling duals, and girl basketball).

Makes too much sense to people who like to complain for no reason other than to be complaining because other people are complaining.....................................

 

[StormHawk42]

Because people want to see their post-season set-up in a reasonable amount of time for things like scouting and to make sure the administrators of the various sites know what they're doing well beforehand. You also have to schedule the officials for hundreds of games throughout the state.

What you are suggesting is to wait until the entire season is over, then create pairings, schedule the facilities, and assign the refs, all in a span of what, 3 or 4 days?

Brilliant.

No need to be a dick about it, da coach. Refs aren't told their assignments until about 5 days before just FYI. They know if they got games beforehand, but locations aren't known until later.

 

[GoHawks2009]

This post reminds me of the settlers guy from direct tv commercials. "We're settlers we settle for things."

Or perhaps he's talking about not breaking this perfectly good chair so that you don't have to then complain about needing to fix said chair.................................

 

[GoHawks2009]

Pella Christian is a perfect example. They are a school of about 200 students, yet play in a conference of 3A and 4A schools and next year add Indianola to the conference. Here are their 9 losses on the year:

Pella (84-45)
Norwalk (62-59)
Grinnell (85-78)
Dallas Center - Grimes (58-55)
Newton (62-56) - also beat them this year
Oskaloosa (54-51) - also beat them this year
Pella (56-50)
Norwalk (61-38)
Knoxville (60-58)

I think they were about 10-0 when they actually played schools in the same class as them and their average winning margin in post-season play before State was by about 20-25 points. It's almost a relief for them when they get done playing conference games.

As for the 60 - 27 game between Cascade and Ogden, Cascade probably held a 6" height advantage over Ogden at every position on the court. And it wasn't that they were huge, it was that Ogden was small. Their twin guards couldn't have been over 5' tall. They looked like "little people" (is that the PC way to say that?). It was an uphill battle to say the least for Ogden.

Osage.

 

[GoHawks2009]

This should be the seeding procedure and Wahlert is a perfect example.

This year it wouldn't make much of a difference in seeding but Wahlert's 19-5 record is much more impressive than MOC's 21-3. MOC is the only 3A school in a 1A/2A conference and didn't play a 3A school until districts. There might not be a big difference in a lot of 2A/3A schools but there is a big difference between 2A schools and 4A schools and Wahlert's schedule is littered with 4A schools.

I would actually be fine with this as well, if it was just based on the SOS points system. They only use it to determine tiebreakers. The idea behind 'best record' is to reward teams for their accomplishments with the schedule they've been assigned. Teams can't and don't go out of their way to schedule easy competition. It is all based on their surroundings.

Some teams are in a weak region for basketball, some are stuck in rural, small-town Iowa and just can't get the opportunities afforded to teams like Pella Christian and Western Christian. Kinda hard for those smaller schools in the corners of Iowa to seek out and get teams from bigger classes, in particular, to come play them (and vice-versa).

That's why I've never been one to really mock these teams that go 21-0 while playing a predominantly 1A schedule. I certainly acknowledge the fact that there's an inherent disadvantage even if the fans of that very team won't recognize it until it's too late, but what are they gonna do about it?

It's also worth mentioning that the teams we're discussing are mostly private schools in bigger cities and more densely populated regions.

Congrats to Council Bluffs St. Albert for being able to beat a school in a town of 934 people...................

Pella Christian faced a school district whose combined communities are basically a little more than a 10th of Pella's population. They might have small numbers to choose from within their school district, but teams like Pella Christian are absolutely products of their environment. Growing up in a decent-sized community, surrounded by other pretty decent-sized communities with a DIII college in town and within reasonable driving distance to Des Moines. Pella Christian and Iowa City Regina and even Des Moines Christian, who until recently didn't really bother to utilize some of their inherent advantages, are all afforded luxuries that just aren't there for these smaller schools that play 1A/2A schedules.

 

[SJeagleEye]

Been real WS, better get started on another screen name.

And yes, I am a basketball genius.

 

[the tator]

Last year I think the state tried to purpose that first round of state be played in different sites with less driving times for fans and teams,(example Tyson in Sioux City for Northwest Iowa teams,) it was soundly rejected but I think it does have some merit because lower class teams would qualify for the well and play on Wednesday and Friday and higher class would play at well Thursday and Saturday. The first round games would draw more fans because of less driving times for parents and students.

 

[Dauminator]

Outside of that I take Colorado's method hands-down.

With nigh 80% of all teams making the postseason? No thanks.

 

[whatsup13579er]

I would actually be fine with this as well, if it was just based on the SOS points system. They only use it to determine tiebreakers. The idea behind 'best record' is to reward teams for their accomplishments with the schedule they've been assigned. Teams can't and don't go out of their way to schedule easy competition. It is all based on their surroundings.

Some teams are in a weak region for basketball, some are stuck in rural, small-town Iowa and just can't get the opportunities afforded to teams like Pella Christian and Western Christian. Kinda hard for those smaller schools in the corners of Iowa to seek out and get teams from bigger classes, in particular, to come play them (and vice-versa).

That's why I've never been one to really mock these teams that go 21-0 while playing a predominantly 1A schedule. I certainly acknowledge the fact that there's an inherent disadvantage even if the fans of that very team won't recognize it until it's too late, but what are they gonna do about it?

It's also worth mentioning that the teams we're discussing are mostly private schools in bigger cities and more densely populated regions.

Congrats to Council Bluffs St. Albert for being able to beat a school in a town of 934 people...................

Pella Christian faced a school district whose combined communities are basically a little more than a 10th of Pella's population. They might have small numbers to choose from within their school district, but teams like Pella Christian are absolutely products of their environment. Growing up in a decent-sized community, surrounded by other pretty decent-sized communities with a DIII college in town and within reasonable driving distance to Des Moines. Pella Christian and Iowa City Regina and even Des Moines Christian, who until recently didn't really bother to utilize some of their inherent advantages, are all afforded luxuries that just aren't there for these smaller schools that play 1A/2A schedules.

I think the reward for a great season is the trip to the State tournament, right? At that point you're trying to find the best team in the state and they should try to seed it accordingly.