OT- HS Boys State Finals wrapped up

[WSC72]

Imagine having a school with no iep students, a rare poor child, all in a town of 500,000 people thinking they should compete with a rural school with 10-20% iep, 40-60% free and reduced lunch, all in a county (not the town,,the county) of 10,000.

I get it. I must really not understand that a kid in Des Moines can open enroll to albia just as easily as Des Moines Christian. Or that the 1200 9-12 grade students within a 20 mile radius of my school is the same as the #of 9-12 grade students within 20 miles of the Des Moines metro area.
I’ll give a tip if the cap to algona and Carroll, they are at least private schools in smaller settings. Their public schools and private are generally successful. But they also illustrate the point of the advantage of the private school. Neither Carroll hs or algona hs have anywhere near the success that their private school counterpart has. Gee I wonder if having no iep and frl kids keeping their enrollments down has an impact.

All of those things you mentioned are valid points.

Couple of questions that you may have already answered. What is your solution to this issue?

Do you know how many private schools there are in Iowa? I don’t off the top of my head.

How do you fix the poverty issue among public schools where some have low teens Free/Reduced and some have close to 100%?

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

So how would you all want the state to do a one-class postseason tournament?

A. Keep the 4 class setup until the final 32 teams (the 8 typical state qualifiers from each class), then have 2 rounds of sub-state or "super sub-state" and then your final 8 teams at "State".

B. Just do one big tournament with all the 300+ schools intermixed and districts based on geography and then overall record (however you'd want to figure out factoring in SOS/conference play). For example, you could have Ames facing Roland-Story or Waterloo Columbus playing Cedar Falls in the 1st Rd.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

All of those things you mentioned are valid points.

Couple of questions that you may have already answered. What is your solution to this issue?

Do you know how many private schools there are in Iowa? I don’t off the top of my head.

How do you fix the poverty issue among public schools where some have low teens Free/Reduced and some have close to 100%?

Most of the private schools that aren’t successful or are really small are these little church schools that have popped up the last 10-20 years. There school are more like a homeschool consortium rather than what most of the private schools we are talking about. Thoughts off the top of my head:
1. At a minimum you play in the class of your conference. Assumption walhert and Xavier have no business playing against towns of 2,000. The fact that no smaller conference would take them tells you they belong in 4a.

2. You play the class of your town. Pella/algona/carroll play 3A. If a private school struggles to compete they can have relegation down.

3 if you are one tiny private schools like cedar valley Christian. Form your own private school association and play for your own titles if you don’t want to compete or can’t.

4. Multiplier based upon frl and iep data private vs public.

 

[WSC72]

So how would you all want the state to do a one-class postseason tournament?

A. Keep the 4 class setup until the final 32 teams (the 8 typical state qualifiers from each class), then have 2 rounds of sub-state or "super sub-state" and then your final 8 teams at "State".

B. Just do one big tournament with all the 300+ schools intermixed and districts based on geography and then overall record (however you'd want to figure out factoring in SOS/conference play). For example, you could have Ames facing Roland-Story or Waterloo Columbus playing Cedar Falls in the 1st Rd.

In 1959 Sioux Center and Calumet (behind the great Delmer Dau) were the 2 class champs

In 1969 Storm Lake and Paullina (Neil Fegebank who later played at Iowa) were the 2 class champions.

 

[Rose bowl or bust]

Imagine having a school with no iep students, a rare poor child, all in a town of 500,000 people thinking they should compete with a rural school with 10-20% iep, 40-60% free and reduced lunch, all in a county (not the town,,the county) of 10,000.

I get it. I must really not understand that a kid in Des Moines can open enroll to albia just as easily as Des Moines Christian. Or that the 1200 9-12 grade students within a 20 mile radius of my school is the same as the #of 9-12 grade students within 20 miles of the Des Moines metro area.
I’ll give a tip if the cap to algona and Carroll, they are at least private schools in smaller settings. Their public schools and private are generally successful. But they also illustrate the point of the advantage of the private school. Neither Carroll hs or algona hs have anywhere near the success that their private school counterpart has. Gee I wonder if having no iep and frl kids keeping their enrollments down has an impact.

It’s funny that you’ll give a tip of the cap to Algona Garrigan. They’re an 8-man football school with 40+ kids on their roster in a 3A town. Seems to be the EXACT school you’re arguing against. Some 8 man schools don’t even have 40 boys in their high school, but Garrigan can get all that participation since they’re “rich kids” who don’t have to get jobs and none of them are on IEPs.

And before you say “I said that at the end”, I will agree that you did mention it as an after thought after praising them.

 

[WSC72]

Most of the private schools that aren’t successful or are really small are these little church schools that have popped up the last 10-20 years. There school are more like a homeschool consortium rather than what most of the private schools we are talking about. Thoughts off the top of my head:
1. At a minimum you play in the class of your conference. Assumption walhert and Xavier have no business playing against towns of 2,000. The fact that no smaller conference would take them tells you they belong in 4a.

2. You play the class of your town. Pella/algona/carroll play 3A. If a private school struggles to compete they can have relegation down.

3 if you are one tiny private schools like cedar valley Christian. Form your own private school association and play for your own titles if you don’t want to compete or can’t.

4. Multiplier based upon frl and iep data private vs public.

You are correct about many of the small private schools. Moving outside of 1A would make it impossible for them to compete come tournament time.

1- from this years state tournament MOCFV would then move down a class, and it’s impossible for most small school conferences

2- you now give teams like Storm Lake St Mary’s, Siouxland Christian, Burlington ND, MC Newman, Algona Garrigan, FD St Ed’s, Regina and LeMars Gehlen among a number of other small private schools zero chance of ever making state. Yet Remsen St Marys, Bellevue Marquette, Unity and Western get to stay in the same class and dominate, as does Dowling

3- is not a bad idea. Something similar was actually proposed by football for those terrible urban schools who get completely dominated by suburban 4A/5A

4- Migh be illegal due to FERPA. Also does not do a thing to address the public school Free/Reduced issue.

How do any of those address open enrollment to public schools which is happening more and more.

 

[Rose bowl or bust]

1. At a minimum you play in the class of your conference. .

I'm not sure what this even means. A majority of the state, basically anyone outside of 4A, has conferences that are mixed in class sizes. Lets just take the Twin Lakes conference.
2A - 7 schools - Sioux Central, Pocahontas, East Sac, Manson, Southeast Valley, Emmetsburg, South Central Calhoun
1A - 5 schools - Storm Lake St. Marys, Newell-Fonda, GTRA, Alta-Aurelia, West Bend
So do the 2A's come down? Does St. Mary's move up to 2A and the public schools don't have to follow this rule?

2. You play the class of your town. Pella/algona/carroll play 3A. If a private school struggles to compete they can have relegation down.

How does the relegation work? This would be a nightmare. And what about Western Christian? Do they get to come down since they're in Hull, and Boyden-Hull is a 1A district?

3 if you are one tiny private schools like cedar valley Christian. Form your own private school association and play for your own titles if you don’t want to compete or can’t.

Why don't the whiny public schools just start their own association then? Just exclude the private schools from it.

4. Multiplier based upon frl and iep data private vs public.

This, along with the idea of a district population + school enrollment type forumla, are actually something I could get behind. I still don't think you can apply it to privates only, but this is the only thing that can help to "level" the playing field. The only reason the FRL formula was developed for football was because of the metro schools in Des Moines vs. the suburban schools...it had nothing to do with private schools, but I think it could help in both situations.

 

[jerbob36]

A couple states have tried various things over the years:

Alabama was the first school to addres competitive advantage issues. In 1999, they went to a 1.35 multiplier, which indicates a 35% higher athletic participation rate than public schools. After 25 years, they still have it.
Arkansas: private schools moved up a class (unless under 80 students 10-12)
Connecticut: 2.0 multiplier in basketball only!!
Illinois 1.65

Just a few ideas out there. I think for me the fact that there may not be a perfect solution shouldn't be something that prevents some solution to be attempted. The reality is there is a competitive advantage for private schools in large population bases. We can pick outliers all day, we can mention public schools gaining kids from other schools, we can find examples of great public school teams. But outliers don't tell the full story.

 

[joelbc1]

Name me one school in Iowa that is currently limited by district boundaries

None…as long as they are “neighboring or bordering” districts……,Parochials can get anyone from anywhere regardless of the “neighboring district”….and they can effectively….and actively “recruit” them, too……if they desire.

 

[LukaDuka]

Vanderloo has brought in more recently. You are correct it used to be Heelan. More recently Heelan kids have all gone to Catholic grade schools.

Additionally, as Dakota Valley has thrived they get very few kids from there like they used too.

Two top girls on the East team are Rock Valley kids right now.

That's a hike from RV to SC.

 

[cidhawkeye]

How many open enrollees do you think Belmont klemme has. South Winn has. There is a huge difference between open enrollment in urban areas vs rural.

Belmond has 44 kids OE in this year
South Winn has 51.

 

[cidhawkeye]

So what I hear you saying is that you don’t have a real good response and don’t really know what you are talking about.

I guess I didn’t use clear enough verbiage. Xavier lost their top kid to Kennedy. Kind of goes against the ‘pull from’ aspect.

 

[cidhawkeye]

A couple states have tried various things over the years:

Alabama was the first school to addres competitive advantage issues. In 1999, they went to a 1.35 multiplier, which indicates a 35% higher athletic participation rate than public schools. After 25 years, they still have it.
Arkansas: private schools moved up a class (unless under 80 students 10-12)
Connecticut: 2.0 multiplier in basketball only!!
Illinois 1.65

Just a few ideas out there. I think for me the fact that there may not be a perfect solution shouldn't be something that prevents some solution to be attempted. The reality is there is a competitive advantage for private schools in large population bases. We can pick outliers all day, we can mention public schools gaining kids from other schools, we can find examples of great public school teams. But outliers don't tell the full story.

A couple of notes. Alabama had to add a competitive advantage clause to their multiplier because it wasn’t garnering the results they had hoped for.
Illinois is unique in that their multiplier is for all non boundary schools, not just privates and their OE is not close to the free for all in Iowa.
Take a look at hs wrestling if you want to see the impact of recruiting and OE

 

[WSC72]

None…as long as they are “neighboring or bordering” districts……,Parochials can get anyone from anywhere regardless of the “neighboring district”….and they can effectively….and actively “recruit” them, too……if they desire.

So can public schools. I hear a number of public schools with radio adds touting how great they are and that people should send their kids

A couple of notes. Alabama had to add a competitive advantage clause to their multiplier because it wasn’t garnering the results they had hoped for.
Illinois is unique in that their multiplier is for all non boundary schools, not just privates and their OE is not close to the free for all in Iowa.
Take a look at hs wrestling if you want to see the impact of recruiting and OE

Wrestling is a GREAT example of public schools pulling in transfers

 

[joelbc1]

So can public schools. I hear a number of public schools with radio adds touting how great they are and that people should send their kids




Wrestling is a GREAT example of public schools pulling in transfers

I have never heard such a commercial……not doubting you, but honest;y, I have never heard one……other than a generic commercial plugging high schools in general during high school championships on TV.
where do you live to hear such commercials?

 

[jerbob36]

My school district has tried to market our school with advertising. If there is a private school in the area, you almost have to try to fight the tide of ESA drain. An ad that costs $6,000 is roughly the cost of losing a public school kid to a private school. If you can keep one family in the school system, it has paid off.

We've lost over 40 kids this year alone. And we have a great school system.

 

[Tom Paris]

The best player from Xavier transferred to CR Kennedy this year. While not common, it can go both ways.

From what I was told, Jefferson’s best player, for sure, and possibly Wash’s best transferred to Kennedy also. Coaches in CR were pissed.

 

[Tom Paris]

You are correct about many of the small private schools. Moving outside of 1A would make it impossible for them to compete come tournament time.

1- from this years state tournament MOCFV would then move down a class, and it’s impossible for most small school conferences

2- you now give teams like Storm Lake St Mary’s, Siouxland Christian, Burlington ND, MC Newman, Algona Garrigan, FD St Ed’s, Regina and LeMars Gehlen among a number of other small private schools zero chance of ever making state. Yet Remsen St Marys, Bellevue Marquette, Unity and Western get to stay in the same class and dominate, as does Dowling

3- is not a bad idea. Something similar was actually proposed by football for those terrible urban schools who get completely dominated by suburban 4A/5A

4- Migh be illegal due to FERPA. Also does not do a thing to address the public school Free/Reduced issue.

How do any of those address open enrollment to public schools which is happening more and more.

Regina? No chance? How many titles have they won over the last 20 years, in a variety of sports, beating up on little towns, keeping them from getting to or winning state? Boo hoo to big city privates who have kicked little towns’ butts for decades.

 

[joelbc1]

I never stated that privates don’t recruit…it’s how they keep the doors open. You’re so dug into your hatred that you didn’t bother to read what you replied to. And recruitment absolutely happens at public schools as well, especially in a metro area. Kids and families will choose their schools based on a number of things, and athletics is certainly one of those things.

I’ll give you credit for bringing a new idea though. The idea of “district population” + “school enrollment” somehow combined and manipulated into a number would be interesting. Wouldn’t really affect rural areas like Harlan or St. Ansgar, but would certainly change things in larger metro areas.

“Hatred”? More bullshit……I don’t hate anything…..however, I do want a “fair” playing field for all concerned. Parochials in many cases enjoy some diostinct advantages….and level of competition is certainly one of them. Again..,.,.,.Parochials in larger cities should be required to compete against like population schools….I will gove Dowling (WDM) credit….they play against the biggest schools….I cannot say the same for Heelan, Xavier and Assumption. The latter schools have a HUGE built in advantage over their counterparts in Washington, Sioux Center and Grinnell…….and there are others I could mention, too……..
Plus, I think it is total bullshit that now my tax money is being forwarded to parents sp they can send their kids to “private” schools and enable this unfairness to continue. I have no complaints about parochial schools and even support their existence to a point (financially, too), but I feel that parents sending their kids to these “privates” do so on their own nickel and not the tax payers nickel.
I really resent your characterization of my opposition to parochial schools as “hate”…..it’s far from it.

 

[IIowaFarmBoy]

I don't follow IHSBB but do know that Decorah HS has 6'10 soph Cael Lafrentz. Not sure if he is a "player to watch" or not.

Nice touch. Decent coordination. Not quick but not a turtle. Not strong. Doesn't know how to use his body but Iowa doesn't block out anyway.

 

[cidhawkeye]

“Hatred”? More bullshit……I don’t hate anything…..however, I do want a “fair” playing field for all concerned. Parochials in many cases enjoy some diostinct advantages….and level of competition is certainly one of them. Again..,.,.,.Parochials in larger cities should be required to compete against like population schools….I will gove Dowling (WDM) credit….they play against the biggest schools….I cannot say the same for Heelan, Xavier and Assumption. The latter schools have a HUGE built in advantage over their counterparts in Washington, Sioux Center and Grinnell…….and there are others I could mention, too……..
Plus, I think it is total bullshit that now my tax money is being forwarded to parents sp they can send their kids to “private” schools and enable this unfairness to continue. I have no complaints about parochial schools and even support their existence to a point (financially, too), but I feel that parents sending their kids to these “privates” do so on their own nickel and not the tax payers nickel.
I really resent your characterization of my opposition to parochial schools as “hate”…..it’s far from it.

Do they account for the distinct advantages that public schools have in metro areas? Things that take kids away from the privates?
I watched a class go from 64 kids to 48 kids when the tuition increase took effect from 8th-9th grade. Increased extra curricular opportunities (not sports), increased academic opportunities, free, etc. did I mention that it’s free?

 

[WSC72]

I have never heard such a commercial……not doubting you, but honest;y, I have never heard one……other than a generic commercial plugging high schools in general during high school championships on TV.
where do you live to hear such commercials?

Western Iowa

 

[WSC72]

Regina? No chance? How many titles have they won over the last 20 years, in a variety of sports, beating up on little towns, keeping them from getting to or winning state? Boo hoo to big city privates who have kicked little towns’ butts for decades.

Regina would have no chance in 4A as was suggested by moving schools to the class of the city they reside in. Not sure if you read the thread I was replying too. Even the best of the small school privates in big cities would never win a title again. Your answer only focused on one school that was mentioned.

 

[joelbc1]

Regina would have no chance in 4A as was suggested by moving schools to the class of the city they reside in. Not sure if you read the thread I was replying too. Even the best of the small school privates would never win a title again. Your answer only focused on one school that was mentioned.

That^^^^just is not true. There are plenty of smaller town Parochials that could compete within their class for various state titles in various sports.
The current set-up is greatly tilted towards parochial schools in larger cities. It’s bullshit. If you claim to play on a level field……let’s make sure it isn’t sloped one way or the other Before the game is played.

 

[WSC72]

That^^^^just is not true. There are plenty of smaller town Parochials that could compete within their class for various state titles in various sports.
The current set-up is greatly tilted towards parochial schools in larger cities. It’s bullshit. If you claim to play on a level field……let’s make sure it isn’t sloped one way or the other Before the game is played.

I edited my post. I was referring to moving those small private schools up to the class that their town/city they reside in. Regina to 4A in that scenario. I certainly could have phrased that better.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Regina would have no chance in 4A as was suggested by moving schools to the class of the city they reside in. Not sure if you read the thread I was replying too. Even the best of the small school privates would never win a title again. Your answer only focused on one school that was mentioned.

During the Regina Reign of Terror they were routinely beating the 4A middle school teams on their schedule, and won or were competitive with most every 3A/4A team they faced at the Varsity level.

The unfortunate thing is that it wasn't some unsustainable run either. It ended because Cook walked away. (Not that they've ever really stopped being competitive in football....they've just gone back to being competitive for their class, and not just dunking on everyone)

 

[WSC72]

During the Regina Reign of Terror they were routinely beating the 4A middle school teams on their schedule, and won or were competitive with most every 3A/4A team they faced at the Varsity level.

The unfortunate thing is that it wasn't some unsustainable run either. It ended because Cook walked away. (Not that they've ever really stopped being competitive in football....they've just gone back to being competitive for their class, and not just dunking on everyone)

I remember how good Regina was. But do you honestly believe they could have beaten Dowling, Ankeny, Bettendorf, Valley?

Looking back at their schedules during those years would be interesting. Playing above their level a few times a year I know they had success.

For the most part this discussion has been pretty cordial and a few somewhat viable options to look at. The main point I was trying to get across in this thread is that there is no easy answer to this. The issue is very complex and goes way beyond just the success of private schools. A true level playing field goes way beyond that. Is there a solution? Maybe, but implementation of any criteria causes other issues that need to be thought through.

 

[CaboKP]

The dislike of private / parochial schools in this thread is on par with the various ESA threads.

Xavier doesn't play schools with 2000 population. That is either an exaggeration or dishonest. The smallest I could find from last year's football schedule is Clear Creek Amana (Tiffin). Most of the towns they play are 10-20k populations.

Coaches at the high school level make such a difference. North Linn is a great example of recent dominance.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I remember how good Regina was. But do you honestly believe they could have beaten Dowling, Ankeny, Bettendorf, Valley?

Looking back at their schedules during those years would be interesting. Playing above their level a few times a year I know they had success.

For the most part this discussion has been pretty cordial and a few somewhat viable options to look at. The main point I was trying to get across in this thread is that there is no easy answer to this. The issue is very complex and goes way beyond just the success of private schools. A true level playing field goes way beyond that. Is there a solution? Maybe, but implementation of any criteria causes other issues that need to be thought through.

Beat? Not sure. 2010 would have been a competitive team against those programs.
They still lose players to the bigger schools in the area.

 

[Tom Paris]

Regina would have no chance in 4A as was suggested by moving schools to the class of the city they reside in. Not sure if you read the thread I was replying too. Even the best of the small school privates in big cities would never win a title again. Your answer only focused on one school that was mentioned.

In multiple sports Regina could win a title in without dropping down 2 levels. Would it be easy? No. But much more fair than beating up a town with a total population of 3500.

 

[Tom Paris]

I remember how good Regina was. But do you honestly believe they could have beaten Dowling, Ankeny, Bettendorf, Valley?

Looking back at their schedules during those years would be interesting. Playing above their level a few times a year I know they had success.

For the most part this discussion has been pretty cordial and a few somewhat viable options to look at. The main point I was trying to get across in this thread is that there is no easy answer to this. The issue is very complex and goes way beyond just the success of private schools. A true level playing field goes way beyond that. Is there a solution? Maybe, but implementation of any criteria causes other issues that need to be thought through.

Maybe not but they would have beaten 90% or more of every other team in 4A. Same with Assumption. That wasn’t good enough so they ended MAC football instead.

 

[joelbc1]

The dislike of private / parochial schools in this thread is on par with the various ESA threads.

Xavier doesn't play schools with 2000 population. That is either an exaggeration or dishonest. The smallest I could find from last year's football schedule is Clear Creek Amana (Tiffin). Most of the towns they play are 10-20k populations.

Coaches at the high school level make such a difference. North Linn is a great example of recent dominance.

 

[Tom Paris]

The dislike of private / parochial schools in this thread is on par with the various ESA threads.

Xavier doesn't play schools with 2000 population. That is either an exaggeration or dishonest. The smallest I could find from last year's football schedule is Clear Creek Amana (Tiffin). Most of the towns they play are 10-20k populations.

Coaches at the high school level make such a difference. North Linn is a great example of recent dominance.

Those are still smaller towns…not drawing from an area of 200,000 people…like Xavier.

 

[joelbc1]

Yes coaches do make a difference….but I think the size of the available talent poil plays a significant part of the equation, too.
You give me a talent pool of 200000 vs. a talent pool of 20000, I bet most of the time there is more talent in the larger pool. Now of course I might be wrong but I attended a public school…….

 

[cidhawkeye]

In multiple sports Regina could win a title in without dropping down 2 levels. Would it be easy? No. But much more fair than beating up a town with a total population of 3500.

Which sports?

 

[cidhawkeye]

Yes coaches do make a difference….but I think the size of the available talent poil plays a significant part of the equation, too.
You give me a talent pool of 200000 vs. a talent pool of 20000, I bet most of the time there is more talent in the larger pool. Now of course I might be wrong but I attended a public school…….

One can assume that in that market of 200,000 that the overwhelming majority would go to the free option. If the public schools are decent…..

 

[Tom Paris]

Which sports?

Softball for sure. Soccer. Baseball. Girls basketball is always good in a small town conference. That would have opportunities in those sports off the top of my head. Especially dropping one class instead of 2.

 

[Tom Paris]

One can assume that in that market of 200,000 that the overwhelming majority would go to the free option. If the public schools are decent…..

Assume. Lol. Vouchers and scholarships.

 

[IIowaFarmBoy]

Regina would have no chance in 4A as was suggested by moving schools to the class of the city they reside in. Not sure if you read the thread I was replying too. Even the best of the small school privates in big cities would never win a title again. Your answer only focused on one school that was mentioned.

Most of the best teams in a general region of the state will never win a title period.

 

[joelbc1]

One can assume that in that market of 200,000 that the overwhelming majority would go to the free option. If the public schools are decent…..

You know what happens when you assume…..