POLL: $15 Minimum Wage

[What Would Jesus Do?]

[1] Minimum wage jobs are filled by individuals with minimum useful job skills.

[2] If we were to raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour what do you think the guy who currently makes $15 an hour would need to have?

[3] Wage inflation would work it's way up through the entire employment chain...

[4] ...until eventually the $15 an hour minimum wage earner would once again be right back where he is now.

[5] The only solution is for these individuals to develop useful/marketable job skills......

[1] Simply wrong. Plenty of skilled/educated people holding down crap jobs because of shortages of jobs that need their skills. And plenty of low-paid workers have excellent skills at doing their current jobs, too. They just aren't earning enough.

[2] He'd probably want more. What's wrong with that? He can ask for more. Just as he can right now. This isn't even slightly a good argument against raising the MW.

[3] Probably, at least some way up the ladder. A boosted MW isn't likely have much impact beyond lower middle class salary levels. But even if it did, so what? Again, not a reason to oppose a MW raise.

[4] No reason to believe that as long as a COLA is part of the law. And therefore, yet again, not a reason to reject a MW increase.

[5] That's always a good idea for people who have trouble getting good jobs. But, again, not a reason to refuse to raise the minimum wage.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I think I agree with this.

Minimum wage is, what, $16k/year right now? What's cheap housing, $5k/year? Most taxes should wash, food another what, $3k? Certainly doesn't leave a lot, but one certainly survives, until they have children.

So . . . should it be based on what a single person can get by on without living a harsh existence? A parent and 1 child? I think that's natural's suggestion. The average family in America (2.54 people)? The "ideal" family (2 parents, 2 kids)?

If we want to curb population growth, do we peg it lower? If we want to encourage population growth, do we raise it?

I think those issues are probably where we should be having the debate.

 

[strummingram]

There is no such thing as an across-the-board "reasonable level." Not to mention, you're hurting MEDIUM wage earners when you do this, over and over and over.

I understand the intention of you people who are demanding it be raised. It's well-intentioned. No one likes to see people in poverty (most everyone anyway). None of us want to see kids in the streets starving. But, I don't see any of that on that level. Regardless, you're never curing the disease... ever. I want people to be able to earn a decent living. I really do. But, the subjectivity and sheer vagueness in that comment is immeasurable. There are SO MANY variables that are in play here. A "decent living" is so subjective. Are wealthy business owners going to try and pay their workers as little as possible for the most work? Of course they are! That is what they are taught in business economics! That isn't going to suddenly change. They will always seek ways to achieve that goal. I don't care how much wage guarantee you impose by government mandate, technology and innovation will find a way to achieve the goal of success. That is what the market does, whether you like the outcome or not, on a personal level.

But, all of this wage talk is just scenery and distraction.

First and foremost; the monetary system is completely flawed and will never correct itself. It can't. It is literally engineered to create more inflation, more debt, and more cover for the very wealthy. Until you force that to change, you might as well just make the minimum wage $100 an hour. That's where it will eventually go when you constantly treat the symptoms and never the disease.

The people in power here are smart. They are incredibly smart. They have learned from all the failed monarchies and serfdom in history and figured out how to perfect it. The last thing you want is an educated and angry working class. Throwing money at a problem is bullsh*t. We have a public of apathetic, obedient drones. They got their smartphone, their wifi, their Applebee's and their malls (often in one place)... and their federal withholding... and they're not bothered by anything else. You can bump-up the minimum wage a hundred times and it will never get fixed.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

There is no such thing as an across-the-board "reasonable level." Not to mention, you're hurting MEDIUM wage earners when you do this, over and over and over.

I understand the intention of you people who are demanding it be raised. It's well-intentioned. No one likes to see people in poverty (most everyone anyway). None of us want to see kids in the streets starving. But, I don't see any of that on that level. Regardless, you're never curing the disease... ever. I want people to be able to earn a decent living. I really do. But, the subjectivity and sheer vagueness in that comment is immeasurable. There are SO MANY variables that are in play here. A "decent living" is so subjective. Are wealthy business owners going to try and pay their workers as little as possible for the most work? Of course they are! That is what they are taught in business economics! That isn't going to suddenly change. They will always seek ways to achieve that goal. I don't care how much wage guarantee you impose by government mandate, technology and innovation will find a way to achieve the goal of success. That is what the market does, whether you like the outcome or not, on a personal level.

But, all of this wage talk is just scenery and distraction.

First and foremost; the monetary system is completely flawed and will never correct itself. It can't. It is literally engineered to create more inflation, more debt, and more cover for the very wealthy. Until you force that to change, you might as well just make the minimum wage $100 an hour. That's where it will eventually go when you constantly treat the symptoms and never the disease.

The people in power here are smart. They are incredibly smart. They have learned from all the failed monarchies and serfdom in history and figured out how to perfect it. The last thing you want is an educated and angry working class. Throwing money at a problem is bullsh*t. We have a public of apathetic, obedient drones. They got their smartphone, their wifi, their Applebee's and their malls (often in one place)... and their federal withholding... and they're not bothered by anything else. You can bump-up the minimum wage a hundred times and it will never get fixed.

I appreciate your concerns and the congenial way you raise them. I think I answered most of them in my last 2 posts.

One I have to disagree with again is the idea that "you're hurting MEDIUM wage earners when you do this." Check my answer to Rifler (parts 2 and 3). Are you talking about something else, or do you think my answers are wrong?

That there are lots of variables, is certainly true. But that isn't a reason to reject the MW increase. It's a reason to address the variables. In other words, it's a reason to have these conversations, not a reason - as some seem to think - to shut down these conversations. We are plenty smart enough to address these variables. We should get down to work.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

How quickly should the minimum wage be raised to $15/hr?

This is absolutely one of the dumbest things you could possibly EVERY do. Despite inflation. You do realize how badly this would affect the economy correct? Most of the money wouldn't be invested into ANYTHING, it would be used for BS. $15 an hour to pay a kid to flip burgers? Are you out of your f'n mind?

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

Thats a point for raising the wage. It's fun that you need to characterize people who work for a living as freeloading losers.

Flipping burgers, dumping trash is simply not worth paying someone $15 an hour. I can guarantee that if you guys were business owners you wouldn't be for this AT ALL. And not just for greed reasons.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Flipping burgers, dumping trash is simply not worth paying someone $15 an hour. I can guarantee that if you guys were business owners you wouldn't be for this AT ALL. And not just for greed reasons.

So ALL business owners agree with you?

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

You missed my point. OP constantly wants to raise the minimum wage, to where he feels people can "live" by making it. Which was never the intent of the minimum wage.

Exactly, minimum wage was for jobs that can be done by teenagers, and such.

So ALL business owners agree with you?

Not all do, but many, many would. Including ones that I know. You do realize the sort of ripple effect this would cause correct?
Why do teenage kids need $15 an hour for the easiest and less skillful of the work, that our work force has to offer?
You spend more on employees(BEING FORCED TO BTW), the money loss begins to balance itself in other areas. Once that happens it keeps going, prices raise, and it trickles into every part of the economy.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

I think I agree with this.

Minimum wage is, what, $16k/year right now? What's cheap housing, $5k/year? Most taxes should wash, food another what, $3k? Certainly doesn't leave a lot, but one certainly survives, until they have children.

Assuming you're getting 40 hours a week.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

You missed my point. OP constantly wants to raise the minimum wage, to where he feels people can "live" by making it. Which was never the intent of the minimum wage.

Exactly, minimum wage was for jobs that can be done by teenagers, and such.

Yep

Explain how that works then Natural. Life is about as moral as a hurricane Natural, it's about time you start learning that.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

I've asked this before, but how many ADULTS that work 40 hours per week are really making minimum wage?

My position is very, VERY few. If you are willing to put in 40 hours and can show up on time, clean/sober, you'll do better than minimum wage.

Exactly, and why this is so difficult to understand is beyond me. We have a problem with entitlement in this country and it's a HUGE reason we have so many problems that we shouldn't.

 

[theIowaHawk]

I for one disagree that it's "teenagers" who are making minimum wage, but at least I admit I don't know the numbers. They should be readily available...who has them?

 

[theIowaHawk]

Here is a UC Davis paper, I haven't read it yet.http://poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/what-are-characteristics-minimum-wage-workers

 

[TexMichFan]

Here is a UC Davis paper, I haven't read it yet.http://poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/what-are-characteristics-minimum-wage-workers

While a 40 hour work week is the most commonly considered number of hours worked per week it can be as low as 32 hours if an employer sets that as their full time number.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

This is absolutely one of the dumbest things you could possibly EVERY do. Despite inflation. You do realize how badly this would affect the economy correct? Most of the money wouldn't be invested into ANYTHING, it would be used for BS. $15 an hour to pay a kid to flip burgers? Are you out of your f'n mind?

Nonsense. These workers would not only have better lives but they would spend it and generate some extra demand in the economy. Probably nothing earthshaking, but still a nice growth buzz that could result in hiring to meet the new demand.

Your religion is simply wrong on this. You can throw around insulting phrases like "you do realize" as much as you want. It's a free(ish) country. But you'd be better off if you followed it up with good data or ideas instead of simplistic economic dogma.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Here is a UC Davis paper, I haven't read it yet.http://poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/what-are-characteristics-minimum-wage-workers

Barely glanced at it, but 50% of minimum wagers over 25? Was that right?

 

[HawktimusPrime]

Nonsense. These workers would not only have better lives but they would spend it and generate some extra demand in the economy. Probably nothing earthshaking, but still a nice growth buzz that could result in hiring to meet the new demand.

Your religion is simply wrong on this. You can throw around insulting phrases like "you do realize" as much as you want. It's a free(ish) country. But you'd be better off if you followed it up with good data or ideas instead of simplistic economic dogma.

Extra demand followed by raised prices, cut hours, less benefits and more incentive to manipulate and find more loop holes. Dumb dumb idea.

 

[22*43*51]

I don't have the energy today.

Sorry.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

Nonsense. These workers would not only have better lives but they would spend it and generate some extra demand in the economy. Probably nothing earthshaking, but still a nice growth buzz that could result in hiring to meet the new demand.

Your religion is simply wrong on this. You can throw around insulting phrases like "you do realize" as much as you want. It's a free(ish) country. But you'd be better off if you followed it up with good data or ideas instead of simplistic economic dogma.

It's a freeing country yet you want DC to tell people how to run their business? At a business standpoint is the government good at business from a money standpoint?

 

[HawktimusPrime]

Nonsense. These workers would not only have better lives but they would spend it and generate some extra demand in the economy. Probably nothing earthshaking, but still a nice growth buzz that could result in hiring to meet the new demand.

Your religion is simply wrong on this. You can throw around insulting phrases like "you do realize" as much as you want. It's a free(ish) country. But you'd be better off if you followed it up with good data or ideas instead of simplistic economic dogma.

Your need to over complicate things is why I will always be better at life than you. You out smart yourself so often it's like you try to do it.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Your need to over complicate things is why I will always be better at life than you. You out smart yourself so often it's like you try to do it.

Why is that you seem angry, and yet you don't explain why you are angry?

What, for example, do you find complicated about what I said? If I can help you by explaining, try asking - instead of posturing with comments about being better at life.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I don't have the energy today.

Sorry.

Or the ability, any day.

Sad.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

It's a freeing country yet you want DC to tell people how to run their business? At a business standpoint is the government good at business from a money standpoint?

How about in English?

 

[22*43*51]

Or the ability, any day.

Sad.

If only in all of your academic pursuits you would have audited a remedial business, or finance class.

Or, anything practical really.

 

[theIowaHawk]

One very angry troll.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

Why is that you seem angry, and yet you don't explain why you are angry?

What, for example, do you find complicated about what I said? If I can help you by explaining, try asking - instead of posturing with comments about being better at life.

You think this is me being angry(sorry to keep switching handles, duty calls). There's nothing complicated about it, it's very simple. But when explained simply, you say it's 'too simple', and that there is more to it. It's very simple WWJD.

Take money from from those that earn it through THEIR business, and they will find a way to earn it back again.

-Raise minimum wage, which doubles it, you double the amount of payroll a business has towards the new 'minimum wage' employees.(despite what you think, not all business owners are millionaires btw)

-This will cause an increase in services provided from said business(absolute no brainer here)

-Then this price raise, will affect everything, to transportation costs, energy costs, etc.(remember this is a nationwide proposal), so it will affect EVERYTHING.

-Hours will be cut, as will quality of service because of less business hours, and in the end the people will only make the same amount due to less hours.

-The spent money(from the 'minimum wagers' will simply go back into the businesses that mostly support the new 'minimum wage'(shopping, food, fun, etc.), which won't really help the worker/consumer because of the price increases.(also a no brainer.)

-In the end, the currency will be inflated, to keep from over consumption, which will in turn accomplish nothing, and likely just do harm.

Simple enough eh?

-

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

I for one disagree that it's "teenagers" who are making minimum wage, but at least I admit I don't know the numbers. They should be readily available...who has them?

You do realize that teenagers primarily make minimum wage or just a bit up from it correct?

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

One very angry troll.

Sure thing Patrick, get that reservation to Dorsia's yet?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

If only in all of your academic pursuits you would have audited a remedial business, or finance class.

Or, anything practical really.

Striking out without aiming. Or hitting.

Sad.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-rogan/why-we-shouldnt-raise-the_b_4688701.html
Straight from HuffPo.

'Seems' is the unfortunate but operative word here. Ultimately, raising the minimum wage isn't an avenue to a fairer, more prosperous America. It's an obstacle.

For start, while wage-raise supporters claim that a raise would avoid negative employment aftershocks, the economic data suggests otherwise. To support their case, the pro-raise movement often points to a study by David Card and Alan Krueger (a former Chairman of Obama's Council of Economic Advisers) which claimed that when compared to a Pennsylvania control group, New Jersey's 1992 minimum wage increase did not reduce employment in the fast food industry.

Not so fast.

In fact, in a 1995 study that relied upon payroll data (rather than the telephone surveys of the Card/Krueger study), David Neumark and William Wascher found that New Jersey's actions led to a 4.6 percent decrease in employment against the Pennsylvania data set. Other economists have also made convincing arguments that Card and Krueger's collection methodology was both functionally flawed and poorly focused.

 

[22*43*51]

Striking out without aiming. Or hitting.

Sad.

WWJD was an entry-level manager with 9 different companies.(likely retail)

Found out what a P&L was yesterday.(what are you? Like 60?)

Wants to lecture businesses large and small.

Sad.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

If our motivation for considering raising the minimum wage is to make sure everyone has a "living wage" or lives comfortably, etc, whatever those terms may mean exactly...why not just cut to the chase here and stop arguing about nickels and dimes and do away with wages, paychecks and all of the messy details like money and bills and so forth and just have the people sign up to receive a predetermined list of goods from the government every week/month.

That way, someone, who knows who that would be exactly, can determine who gets what and how often and so forth and everyone can instantly feel good knowing that everything is just fine and all is well with everyone, everywhere. Is that an option in this poll?

Of course, that may be expecting an awful lot from a government agency to make all that work out smoothly every month and all. Maybe we could get the "scientists" that inadvertently shipped live anthrax to multiple other locations to switch careers.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

You think this is me being angry(sorry to keep switching handles, duty calls). There's nothing complicated about it, it's very simple. But when explained simply, you say it's 'too simple', and that there is more to it. It's very simple WWJD.

Take money from from those that earn it through THEIR business, and they will find a way to earn it back again.

-Raise minimum wage, which doubles it, you double the amount of payroll a business has towards the new 'minimum wage' employees.(despite what you think, not all business owners are millionaires btw)

-This will cause an increase in services provided from said business(absolute no brainer here)

-Then this price raise, will affect everything, to transportation costs, energy costs, etc.(remember this is a nationwide proposal), so it will affect EVERYTHING.

-Hours will be cut, as will quality of service because of less business hours, and in the end the people will only make the same amount due to less hours.

-The spent money(from the 'minimum wagers' will simply go back into the businesses that mostly support the new 'minimum wage'(shopping, food, fun, etc.), which won't really help the worker/consumer because of the price increases.(also a no brainer.)

-In the end, the currency will be inflated, to keep from over consumption, which will in turn accomplish nothing, and likely just do harm.

Simple enough eh?

-

Most of us (including me) need to proofread more. Usually I can figure things out but some of that was unintelligible. The doubling of MW causing an increase in services, for example.

You make a number of claims that could be true or could be nonsense. "Hours will be cut" for example.

Raising the MW will cause inflation pressure, in theory. But that doesn't mean it will cause inflation. And even if it does, the inflation theoretically generated by raising the wages of the bottom wage-earning sector will be mostly swamped within our multi-trillion-dollar economy.

And even if there is inflation, what's wrong with that? I keep asking that question in one form or another. You guys treat it as some sort of axiom that inflation is bad and is to be avoided no matter what the cost or what the befits. As I said in another post, that's just religious dogma and stupid, blatantly-untrue dogma at that. It's merely a potential problem that should be considered and prepared for.

You and 22* and others are too busy tripping over your dogma to actually think these things true. I know it frustrates you to have people not take your pearls seriously, but they really aren't pearls.

Look, I have managed many stores in my life. I have been faced with across-the-board pay raises. I have been faced with budget cuts. I was once faced with a law change that kept me from being able to sell half my inventory for 3 weeks. I know what it's like to have to make difficult business decisions and adjustments. If you want to talk about real issues instead of repeating these fairybook mantras from the Austrian school, let me know.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

WWJD was an entry-level manager with 9 different companies.(likely retail)

Found out what a P&L was yesterday.(what are you? Like 60?)

Wants to lecture businesses large and small.

Sad.

Older than that. And clearly both smarter and more polite than you.

I have no idea what an entry-level manager is. I was the guy they called in to turn around unprofitable stores. I was good at it. I was the guy they called in to open new stores and get them profitable until someone who liked the boring job of keeping a well-oiled machine running could step in. I was good at it. I was the guy who ran the company when the owner was out of town. From what you have said you are not just clueless and impolite, you wouldn't survive in the real world of commerce.

 

[22*43*51]

Was this back in your Barry Gibb phase pictured in your avatar?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Was this back in your Barry Gibb phase pictured in your avatar?

If that was a stab at being friendly, I accept it. No, that picture is from my teaching at university and working at NIH phases (I can't narrow it more precisely than that), which came after my years as an insurance adjuster then underwriter, which followed my years in government. I've seen it from a number of sides and enjoyed most of it. The store management stint was the last 20 years before retiring.